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A trade of one’s own

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Donna Bridges identifies factors that have contributed to women’s successes

Image courtesy of interviewee. March 25, 2024

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This video video addresses the significant gender segregation within skilled trades, noting that women comprise only about 1-3% of the workforce in these occupations. Traditional views categorize these roles as masculine, creating a hostile environment for women who seek to enter the field. This video video can lead to their exclusion from social networks—vital for success—due to social capital dynamics, such as perceived "boys clubs."

The researcher outlines different forms of capital that affect women in trades, including social, cultural, and gender capital. It is highlighted that women who succeed typically have access to these networks, often through family connections. The study emphasizes the barriers women face, including gender bias and sexual harassment, and points out that their path to success can be random rather than supported by structured initiatives.

Furthermore, the research findings suggest that success for women in trades lacks coordination and consistency across workplaces, largely due to the small size of many companies and the absence of dedicated human resources to manage gender equity. While government initiatives aim to encourage the recruitment of women into trades through financial incentives, concerns are raised about the need for changes in workplace culture to improve retention.

Finally, it is argued that men should adapt their behavior on worksites to ensure a respectful environment, signaling that workplaces should evolve to support women without tolerating harassment or gender-based discrimination.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.105 --> 00:02.685
The skilled trades are highly gender segregated.

00:03.075 --> 00:04.405
They're probably some

00:04.405 --> 00:07.685
of the most gender segregated occupations on the planet.

00:08.425 --> 00:13.005
So there's usually around one to 3%

00:13.665 --> 00:15.925
of an occupation in the trades

00:16.115 --> 00:18.085
that are being performed by women.

00:18.385 --> 00:19.925
So it's quite high.

00:20.555 --> 00:24.805
Even occupy, professions like aviation

00:25.665 --> 00:26.845
who have got around four

00:26.865 --> 00:29.485
to 5% have got more than the trades.

00:29.585 --> 00:31.925
So why is it So, I think

00:33.135 --> 00:37.995
it's traditionally been known as a masculine type

00:38.055 --> 00:39.475
of work, and

00:39.475 --> 00:43.115
therefore it's associated with male gender identity.

00:43.935 --> 00:47.915
So not only do women not see it as a job for them,

00:48.345 --> 00:53.155
that perhaps when they do go into the workplace,

00:53.745 --> 00:57.315
they are resisted by the men who are there.

00:57.655 --> 01:00.235
Men see the job as a job for men

01:00.415 --> 01:02.715
and they don't really see it as a job for women.

01:03.175 --> 01:04.275
So they can be hostile.

01:05.255 --> 01:07.315
And there's a range of behaviors

01:07.655 --> 01:12.075
and attitudes that come together to repel women.

01:13.055 --> 01:17.395
We use a boian approach to understand how capital

01:17.935 --> 01:20.995
can facilitate women working in the trades.

01:21.495 --> 01:23.515
And we start looking at that

01:23.665 --> 01:26.555
through the way men use social capital.

01:26.895 --> 01:31.115
So if, if you think of social capital as being, it's not

01:31.305 --> 01:35.795
what you know, but who you know, then you understand

01:35.795 --> 01:37.555
that you're looking at social networks

01:37.735 --> 01:39.915
and you're looking at being part of a group.

01:40.175 --> 01:42.075
So sometimes people say,

01:42.075 --> 01:43.795
well this job's like a boys club.

01:44.185 --> 01:45.635
Well that's social capital.

01:46.135 --> 01:49.515
And in order for you to have the social capital too,

01:49.815 --> 01:53.915
to share that capital within the network, then you need

01:53.915 --> 01:55.595
to be accepted into that network.

01:56.055 --> 01:59.475
So some women are accepted into that network

01:59.695 --> 02:01.915
and we found that in our research that women

02:01.975 --> 02:06.155
who are successful in the trades were part of networks.

02:06.215 --> 02:07.795
Now sometimes they're part of that network

02:07.795 --> 02:09.195
because of family.

02:09.695 --> 02:11.755
So they might work in a family business.

02:12.295 --> 02:16.035
Uh, they might be married to a tradie in a similar trade,

02:16.815 --> 02:20.635
or they might just know people, you know, their uncle and,

02:20.635 --> 02:22.355
and they went to trade school and that,

02:22.375 --> 02:24.155
and that's incredibly important

02:24.155 --> 02:27.555
because often women will be resisted from

02:27.555 --> 02:31.355
that social network and there's a lot of social closure,

02:32.295 --> 02:34.395
but that can be really problematic

02:34.735 --> 02:37.635
and it can lead to attrition, can lead

02:37.935 --> 02:39.515
to them leaving the job.

02:40.215 --> 02:42.715
The other thing is cultural capital.

02:42.855 --> 02:46.715
We look at that and cultural capitals, it's looking right

02:46.855 --> 02:49.675
and sounding right in order to be accepted,

02:50.175 --> 02:54.515
but it's also knowing what to do, having some no help.

02:55.045 --> 02:58.795
Often we, we develop some cultural capital because

02:58.930 --> 03:02.005
We've been working in the field for a little while.

03:02.095 --> 03:06.205
We've been trained, we've been educated in some way.

03:06.345 --> 03:08.325
Now sometimes that can come again

03:08.325 --> 03:09.965
through the family networks,

03:10.505 --> 03:13.445
but it's, it's understanding how to use the tools.

03:13.835 --> 03:16.725
It's un having some understanding of the language

03:16.825 --> 03:18.845
that's used in the workplace.

03:19.385 --> 03:21.685
And we found that a lot of women don't have

03:21.685 --> 03:24.405
that coming into the job and it can make things harder

03:24.985 --> 03:28.325
and that those that do have it have an easier time.

03:28.985 --> 03:31.605
So we also look at symbolic capital

03:31.945 --> 03:35.725
and gender capital theorists called hubs came up

03:35.725 --> 03:37.445
with the idea of gender capital.

03:38.145 --> 03:40.365
And that's very important too

03:40.395 --> 03:44.525
because as Bodu would say, your capital

03:45.425 --> 03:47.885
can work for you or against you,

03:48.065 --> 03:52.765
and a woman's gender capital will, it will

03:53.385 --> 03:55.845
signal to others that she's different

03:56.105 --> 03:57.645
and maybe doesn't belong.

03:57.905 --> 03:59.605
So not such a good thing.

03:59.985 --> 04:02.365
And that's why women try to become one

04:02.365 --> 04:04.485
of the boys often doesn't work

04:04.755 --> 04:07.165
because they're not one of the boys, they are a woman.

04:07.465 --> 04:09.765
So they need to be accepted for themselves.

04:10.505 --> 04:11.605
So how do you do that?

04:12.185 --> 04:15.125
So I think we have to look beyond

04:16.505 --> 04:19.365
du when we think, how do we do that?

04:20.105 --> 04:23.085
We started by doing industry consultations.

04:23.225 --> 04:26.765
So we had three industry consultations in our regions

04:27.865 --> 04:31.095
and we invited business owners.

04:31.555 --> 04:35.975
We invited, people who officially worked

04:35.995 --> 04:39.695
for trade organizations like master builders,

04:42.285 --> 04:45.045
vocational education and training experts

04:45.265 --> 04:49.495
and teachers, government department people,

04:50.365 --> 04:55.215
well, people from government departments and other academics

04:56.065 --> 04:58.925
and a lot of people who were running big

04:59.325 --> 05:00.805
construction companies in the area.

05:00.945 --> 05:03.645
And we brought them all together to ask them

05:03.915 --> 05:05.405
what they thought the barriers were

05:05.905 --> 05:10.085
and what they thought might facilitate women's progress

05:10.835 --> 05:14.845
into the trades so that we get more than between one and 3%.

05:15.465 --> 05:18.605
And we found out a great deal from that.

05:18.605 --> 05:20.725
We had excellent findings from that.

05:21.305 --> 05:24.045
Uh, and then we went on to interview some

05:24.045 --> 05:26.205
of those people in in depth interviews.

05:26.305 --> 05:30.165
And we also interviewed women working in the trades.

05:30.165 --> 05:32.845
We were interested in interviewing women who

05:33.625 --> 05:35.685
had been working in the trades for a little while,

05:36.065 --> 05:38.685
or had been doing their apprenticeship for at least a year.

05:39.425 --> 05:44.005
And that found that they were making a success of it.

05:44.385 --> 05:48.885
So we were less interested, interested the barriers leading

05:48.945 --> 05:53.085
to attrition and more interested in the pathways to success.

05:53.985 --> 05:56.805
So we did focus on success and

05:57.205 --> 05:59.005
Resilience in our interviewing.

05:59.465 --> 06:04.045
We did end up finding that resilience wasn't as important

06:04.545 --> 06:06.285
as the actual formal

06:06.785 --> 06:10.285
and informal pathways available to women.

06:10.905 --> 06:15.805
We did find that the barriers were affecting even the women

06:16.025 --> 06:19.285
who were making a success of it and intended to stay.

06:19.905 --> 06:21.925
So they found the gender bias in the

06:22.205 --> 06:23.605
industry very difficult.

06:24.705 --> 06:25.965
And we did find

06:26.315 --> 06:29.925
that there was some sexual harassment in the vocational

06:29.995 --> 06:32.565
education and training area,

06:33.825 --> 06:38.805
and we, we wrote a paper called Girls in Trades about that,

06:39.335 --> 06:41.005
about tokenism

06:41.065 --> 06:45.165
and sexual harassment in the, in the TAFE classroom.

06:46.915 --> 06:49.495
But we also found that women's success

06:51.155 --> 06:55.655
was a bit ad hoc, that it was

06:56.565 --> 06:58.895
sometimes accidental.

06:59.795 --> 07:03.535
Um, it wasn't coordinated

07:05.205 --> 07:07.745
at the workplace or company level.

07:08.885 --> 07:10.945
So one woman might succeed

07:11.005 --> 07:14.305
and go through the same pathway

07:15.405 --> 07:17.745
as another woman who didn't succeed.

07:17.925 --> 07:19.625
And why was that so?

07:19.885 --> 07:24.545
So it just seemed that the lack of a coordinated

07:25.345 --> 07:27.665
industry approach was a problem.

07:28.725 --> 07:33.285
So if a woman was successful, then

07:34.065 --> 07:38.655
it wasn't as though anybody was able to measure

07:39.035 --> 07:41.215
or repeat that success

07:42.555 --> 07:44.725
because it wasn't associated

07:45.235 --> 07:49.205
with any particular strategies or initiatives.

07:50.315 --> 07:54.375
So sometimes those initiatives will be around networking

07:54.635 --> 07:55.655
or mentoring

07:56.475 --> 08:00.015
or having a buddy system or something like that.

08:00.195 --> 08:01.415
But then some women

08:01.515 --> 08:03.615
who were successful did have those systems

08:04.035 --> 08:06.215
and some women who were successful didn't.

08:07.235 --> 08:10.775
So a bit too ad hoc out there.

08:11.035 --> 08:14.215
And I'm not surprised that it's so ad hoc

08:14.215 --> 08:18.375
because this is an industry that relies on contract work

08:19.195 --> 08:23.695
and a lot of the businesses are under a hundred people

08:24.075 --> 08:25.655
and therefore they don't have

08:25.655 --> 08:28.815
to have gender equity initiatives, diversity

08:28.995 --> 08:32.695
and inclusion initiatives only if it's over the 100.

08:33.475 --> 08:37.165
And also in those businesses,

08:37.275 --> 08:40.045
they won't have an HR department, so there's nobody

08:40.645 --> 08:42.605
managing the woman's employment.

08:43.265 --> 08:47.685
So it can mean that in one workplace there's clean,

08:47.995 --> 08:51.445
safe, and respectable toilets and change rooms for women.

08:51.825 --> 08:55.005
And in the next workplace there isn't. In one workplace

08:55.135 --> 08:59.165
There might be uniforms suitable for a woman woman's body.

08:59.265 --> 09:01.885
And in another workplace there isn't,

09:02.495 --> 09:04.325
those uniforms aren't available.

09:04.915 --> 09:06.125
Well, you know, there's a lot

09:06.125 --> 09:09.485
of interest from government in this area

09:10.305 --> 09:15.125
and one of the initiatives that they've put into place is

09:15.225 --> 09:19.245
to encourage employers to take on women apprentices

09:19.945 --> 09:21.525
and to encourage women

09:21.545 --> 09:23.925
and girls to go into an apprenticeship.

09:23.985 --> 09:27.365
And they use financial subsidies to do that.

09:27.515 --> 09:28.645
Financial incentives.

09:30.815 --> 09:33.745
When they started doing that, I was quite concerned about it

09:33.745 --> 09:37.185
because I wasn't sure if it would work long term

09:37.335 --> 09:40.545
because the problems to me don't seem to be

09:40.545 --> 09:41.665
around recruitment.

09:41.895 --> 09:45.585
They're about retention. So how do we retain women?

09:46.285 --> 09:49.025
And in order to retain them, there does need

09:49.025 --> 09:52.945
to be some change in the work environment.

09:53.685 --> 09:58.425
One of the things that people always question me about is,

09:58.725 --> 10:01.265
should men have to change in order

10:01.285 --> 10:03.265
to accommodate women's needs?

10:03.885 --> 10:08.385
And when they are saying that,

10:08.525 --> 10:09.985
and I drill down on it

10:09.985 --> 10:12.025
and ask them what they mean, they're talking about

10:12.885 --> 10:15.585
bad language and sexualized language.

10:17.165 --> 10:18.785
But one of the things that the women have said

10:18.785 --> 10:21.065
to us is they don't really mind swearing.

10:21.065 --> 10:22.305
They don't mind if people

10:22.305 --> 10:24.585
around them are using foul language,

10:24.805 --> 10:28.065
but they do mind if that is directed at them.

10:28.565 --> 10:31.945
And if people are talking about them

10:32.925 --> 10:36.545
in relation to sex, so they're sexualizing the woman

10:36.725 --> 10:38.385
and it's getting to the point where, you know,

10:38.385 --> 10:40.185
it's verging on sexual harassment.

10:40.185 --> 10:43.025
They don't like that. So should men have to change

10:43.025 --> 10:44.185
that on a work site?

10:44.385 --> 10:46.345
I, I think, yes. I don't think there's many

10:47.155 --> 10:51.505
workplaces left in the world where you can sexually harass

10:51.765 --> 10:54.745
or sexualize your work colleagues.

10:55.665 --> 10:57.825
I certainly would never go into work myself

10:58.245 --> 11:00.105
and put, have to put up with that.

11:00.285 --> 11:01.745
It just wouldn't happen. The men in

11:01.745 --> 11:02.785
my workplace wouldn't do it.

11:03.045 --> 11:05.385
And I think a lot of people could attest to that.

11:06.125 --> 11:09.425
So should they be doing it on construction work sites?

11:09.605 --> 11:10.145
I'd say no.

00:00 - The skilled trades are highly gender segregated. They're probably some of the most gender segregated occupations on the planet. So there's usually around one to 3% of an occupation in the trades that are being performed by women.

00:18 - So it's quite high. Even occupy, professions like aviation who have got around four to 5% have got more than the trades. So why is it So, I think it's traditionally been known as a masculine type of work, and therefore it's associated with male gender identity. So not only do women not see it as a job for them, that perhaps when they do go into the workplace,

00:53 - they are resisted by the men who are there. Men see the job as a job for men and they don't really see it as a job for women. So they can be hostile. And there's a range of behaviors and attitudes that come together to repel women. We use a boian approach to understand how capital can facilitate women working in the trades. And we start looking at that through the way men use social capital.

01:26 - So if, if you think of social capital as being, it's not what you know, but who you know, then you understand that you're looking at social networks and you're looking at being part of a group. So sometimes people say, well this job's like a boys club. Well that's social capital. And in order for you to have the social capital too, to share that capital within the network, then you need to be accepted into that network.

01:56 - So some women are accepted into that network and we found that in our research that women who are successful in the trades were part of networks. Now sometimes they're part of that network because of family. So they might work in a family business. they might be married to a tradie in a similar trade, or they might just know people, you know, their uncle and, and they went to trade school and that, and that's incredibly important

02:24 - because often women will be resisted from that social network and there's a lot of social closure, but that can be really problematic and it can lead to attrition, can lead to them leaving the job. The other thing is cultural capital. We look at that and cultural capitals, it's looking right and sounding right in order to be accepted, but it's also knowing what to do, having some no help. Often we, we develop some cultural capital because

02:58 - We've been working in the field for a little while. We've been trained, we've been educated in some way. Now sometimes that can come again through the family networks, but it's, it's understanding how to use the tools. It's un having some understanding of the language that's used in the workplace. And we found that a lot of women don't have that coming into the job and it can make things harder and that those that do have it have an easier time.

03:28 - So we also look at symbolic capital and gender capital theorists called hubs came up with the idea of gender capital. And that's very important too because as Bodu would say, your capital can work for you or against you, and a woman's gender capital will, it will signal to others that she's different and maybe doesn't belong. So not such a good thing.

03:59 - And that's why women try to become one of the boys often doesn't work because they're not one of the boys, they are a woman. So they need to be accepted for themselves. So how do you do that? So I think we have to look beyond du when we think, how do we do that? We started by doing industry consultations. So we had three industry consultations in our regions and we invited business owners.

04:31 - We invited, people who officially worked for trade organizations like master builders, vocational education and training experts and teachers, government department people, well, people from government departments and other academics and a lot of people who were running big construction companies in the area. And we brought them all together to ask them what they thought the barriers were and what they thought might facilitate women's progress

05:10 - into the trades so that we get more than between one and 3%. And we found out a great deal from that. We had excellent findings from that. and then we went on to interview some of those people in in depth interviews. And we also interviewed women working in the trades. We were interested in interviewing women who had been working in the trades for a little while, or had been doing their apprenticeship for at least a year. And that found that they were making a success of it.

05:44 - So we were less interested, interested the barriers leading to attrition and more interested in the pathways to success. So we did focus on success and Resilience in our interviewing. We did end up finding that resilience wasn't as important as the actual formal and informal pathways available to women. We did find that the barriers were affecting even the women who were making a success of it and intended to stay. So they found the gender bias in the

06:22 - industry very difficult. And we did find that there was some sexual harassment in the vocational education and training area, and we, we wrote a paper called Girls in Trades about that, about tokenism and sexual harassment in the, in the TAFE classroom. But we also found that women's success was a bit ad hoc, that it was sometimes accidental.

06:59 - it wasn't coordinated at the workplace or company level. So one woman might succeed and go through the same pathway as another woman who didn't succeed. And why was that so? So it just seemed that the lack of a coordinated industry approach was a problem. So if a woman was successful, then it wasn't as though anybody was able to measure

07:39 - or repeat that success because it wasn't associated with any particular strategies or initiatives. So sometimes those initiatives will be around networking or mentoring or having a buddy system or something like that. But then some women who were successful did have those systems and some women who were successful didn't. So a bit too ad hoc out there.

08:11 - And I'm not surprised that it's so ad hoc because this is an industry that relies on contract work and a lot of the businesses are under a hundred people and therefore they don't have to have gender equity initiatives, diversity and inclusion initiatives only if it's over the 100. And also in those businesses, they won't have an HR department, so there's nobody managing the woman's employment. So it can mean that in one workplace there's clean,

08:47 - safe, and respectable toilets and change rooms for women. And in the next workplace there isn't. In one workplace There might be uniforms suitable for a woman woman's body. And in another workplace there isn't, those uniforms aren't available. Well, you know, there's a lot of interest from government in this area and one of the initiatives that they've put into place is to encourage employers to take on women apprentices and to encourage women

09:21 - and girls to go into an apprenticeship. And they use financial subsidies to do that. Financial incentives. When they started doing that, I was quite concerned about it because I wasn't sure if it would work long term because the problems to me don't seem to be around recruitment. They're about retention. So how do we retain women? And in order to retain them, there does need to be some change in the work environment.

09:53 - One of the things that people always question me about is, should men have to change in order to accommodate women's needs? And when they are saying that, and I drill down on it and ask them what they mean, they're talking about bad language and sexualized language. But one of the things that the women have said to us is they don't really mind swearing. They don't mind if people

10:22 - around them are using foul language, but they do mind if that is directed at them. And if people are talking about them in relation to sex, so they're sexualizing the woman and it's getting to the point where, you know, it's verging on sexual harassment. They don't like that. So should men have to change that on a work site? I, I think, yes. I don't think there's many workplaces left in the world where you can sexually harass

10:51 - or sexualize your work colleagues. I certainly would never go into work myself and put, have to put up with that. It just wouldn't happen. The men in my workplace wouldn't do it. And I think a lot of people could attest to that. So should they be doing it on construction work sites? I'd say no.

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