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All Consuming: Germans, Jews, and the Meaning of Meat

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View the page of John Efron

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John Efron explores the cultural and historical significance of meat consumption in German and Jewish communities, revealing how dietary practices reflect broader social and identity issues.

Image courtesy of interviewee. September 26, 2024

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The speaker reflects on their deep-rooted interest in food, stemming from their upbringing in a household where cooking was a significant and elaborate endeavor, influenced by their mother’s Polish heritage and adherence to kosher dietary laws. They describe how their mother skillfully combined traditional Polish recipes with French cooking techniques, emphasizing the importance of food preparation and presentation in their family.

The narrative illuminates the cultural significance of food within the Jewish diaspora, particularly how various pasta dishes were integral to Jewish diets in Eastern Europe before the Holocaust, with different names across regions. This video exploration of food also serves as a link to heritage and history, as the author admits to gaining a greater appreciation for this aspect of cultural identity over time.

As the discussion progresses, the speaker touches on the impact of modern challenges on traditional practices, such as the COVID-19 pandemic's interruption of meat supply chains just before Passover. The tension between meat and holiday observance is underscored, demonstrating the psychological and cultural significance of meat in Jewish rituals.

Transitioning to a historical view, the speaker examines the implications of kosher dietary laws in both Jewish and non-Jewish contexts, including debates around animal rights and kosher slaughter techniques in 19th century Germany. The author discusses the societal dynamics where Jewish dietary practices contributed to distinctions, yet also facilitated cooperation between Jewish and non-Jewish communities.

Furthermore, the speaker highlights how contemporary discussions about halal meat resonate with historical sentiments toward kosher meat, as both have been subjected to scrutiny in society. The history of Jewish dietary laws is recast amidst current debates, emphasizing the broader implications of food practices in societal identity, culture, and integration.

The conclusion posits that the centrality of meat continues to provoke discourse on cultural identity and societal integration, drawing parallels to modern challenges faced by various immigrant communities regarding their dietary choices. Overall, the text underscores the significance of food as a cultural touchstone and reflections on identity that transcend generations.

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Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Culinary Background and Family Influence**: The speaker discusses their upbringing, which was heavily influenced by their mother's culinary skills, as she blended traditional Polish baking with kosher dietary laws and French cooking techniques. This environment fostered a lifelong interest in food and cooking for the speaker.

2. **Cultural Significance of Food**: The video emphasizes the importance of food within Jewish culture, particularly how it serves as a connection to heritage and history. The speaker notes that various pasta shapes, once central to the Eastern European Jewish diet, illustrate a deep cultural and linguistic connection among Jewish communities.

3. **Kosher Dietary Laws and Their Implications**: The speaker elaborates on the central role of meat in kosher dietary laws, explaining how adherence to these laws shapes Jewish identity and cultural practices. The absence of certain meats during critical times, like holidays, can evoke a sense of crisis, highlighting the importance of meat in Jewish celebrations.

4. **Historical Convideo**: The video references the historical tensions between Jewish dietary laws and societal perceptions, particularly during the 18th and 19th centuries, which questioned the suitability of Jews as European citizens based on their dietary practices. This tension persists today with discussions surrounding halal meat and its place in German society, drawing parallels to historical debates about kosher meat.

5. **Contemporary Issues**: The speaker connects historical dietary law discussions to modern controversies regarding halal meat, demonstrating how similar arguments about cultural practices continue to arise, reflecting ongoing tensions between ethnic minorities and majority cultures in society. The video also highlights the emotional and societal implications of these dietary choices beyond mere nutrition, linking them to identity, acceptance, and belonging.

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Here are some key quotes from the video that reflect the themes and ideas being expressed:

1. **Culinary Background and Influence:**
- "I've had a long interest in food, which comes actually from, uh, the way I was raised."
- "Cooking was done on an almost commercial scale in our house."

2. **Cultural and Familial Legacy:**
- "I grew up in a, I would say, an environment of culinary privilege."
- "The preparation of this food, uh, eat was and is before the war."

3. **Importance of Ritual and Tradition:**
- "Without meat, there is no holiday."
- "There's a very complex and detailed body of dietary laws that are known as the kosher dietary laws, or KO root."

4. **Meaning of Kosher Meat:**
- "Kosher meat is a source of distinctiveness and separation of Jews from non-Jews."
- "Taken together, the meat occupies the central part of all of these dietary laws."

5. **Historical Convideo of Dietary Laws:**
- "Ongoing significance of meat, um, now in Germany specifically."
- "The dietary laws inhibit or prevent entirely the breaking of bread in the fullest sense of the term, between Jews and non-Jews."

6. **Modern Implications:**
- "The discussion that happened in the 18th and 19th century about the place, the appropriateness, uh, the question of the, you know, are the Jews civilized, that revolves around meat, has now been transposed onto the question of halal meat in Germany."
- "This is still an ongoing story, but it's now about halal and Muslims in Germany."

7. **Cultural Sensitivity and Identity:**
- "What makes it incendiary is that it's people's pets, but even more so that it is a kind of meat that the majority doesn't eat."
- "It leads to charges of inhumanity, cruelty, incompatibility difference, ethnic identity, all of which differ from that of the majority."

These quotes highlight the author's reflections on food, cultural identity, dietary laws, and the historical and ongoing issues surrounding these subjects in the convideo of Jewish and broader cultural dynamics.

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Here are several articles with themes similar to the video you , focusing on the cultural significance of food, heritage, traditional dietary practices, and their implications in contemporary society:

1. **"Food and Identity: The Importance of Culinary Traditions"** - This article explores how culinary practices shape cultural identity, particularly in diasporic communities. It discusses the role of food in maintaining heritage among immigrant families, drawing parallels to similar experiences in Jewish and other cultural convideos.

2. **"The Role of Food in Jewish Culture: Tradition and Modernity"** - An examination of how Jewish food traditions, especially kosher practices, have evolved over time while retaining their importance in cultural identity. It also addresses contemporary challenges and adaptations within the community, like changes in food sourcing due to modern issues.

3. **"Culinary Heritage: A Bridge Between Generations"** - This article reflects on how family recipes and cooking methods serve as a means of transmitting cultural values and history from one generation to the next, with personal anecdotes about familial cooking experiences reminiscent of the speaker's reflections.

4. **"Halal and Kosher: Dietary Laws in a Global Convideo"** - A comparative analysis of how halal and kosher dietary laws function in society, discussing their historical roots, contemporary relevance, and interactions with broader animal rights debates and cultural integration.

5. **"Food as Memory: The Emotional Significance of Culinary Traditions"** - This narrative explores how the act of cooking and sharing meals connects individuals to their heritage and evokes memories of family and community, akin to the nostalgic reflections presented in the speaker's account.

6. **"Cultural Resilience: Food Practices Amidst Crisis"** - An exploration of how communities, particularly during crises like the COVID-19 pandemic, adapt their food practices and maintain cultural rituals, emphasizing the resilience of tradition in the face of modern challenges.

7. **"The Politics of Food: Identity and Society"** - This article addresses how food practices reflect societal structures, including issues of ethnicity, religion, and identity, much like the discussion on societal dynamics and the interrelations of dietary practices covered in the original video.

8. **"Pasta and Identity: The Role of Noodles in Jewish and Polish Culture"** - A focused study on the significance of pasta dishes within Jewish cuisine, tracing their historical importance and their variations across different regions and cultures.

These articles can provide further insights and perspectives on the themes of food, culture, identity, and history that are prevalent in the video you .

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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I've had a long interest in food, which comes

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actually from, the way I was raised.

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Uh, and that is to say,

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cooking was done on an almost commercial scale in our house.

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It wasn't for commercial purposes.

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Uh, but, my mother,

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my mother was originally from Poland.

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Uh, they had a bakery in Poland.

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So I grew up with, just an extraordinarily,

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delicious baked goods coming in and outta the oven.

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But my mother, expanded her repertoire to sort

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of savory foods and, combined,

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very strict adherence to the di the dietary laws,

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kosher dietary laws with French cooking techniques.

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Now, there's a limit to how much you can do that's,

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for example, you know, you can't mix, you know,

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you can't cook a steak in a

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cream sauce or something like that.

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So she took all these, prohibitions,

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as a challenge, to both adhere to the laws

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and to cook delicious food.

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So I grew up in a, I would say, an environment

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of culinary privilege, that is to say, it was,

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we ate like this every night.

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And, the preparation of food, the thought

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that went into it,

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and the presentation of food was just all important

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and still remains the case for my mother today,

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who's almost 91, and, next week.

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And, she's still cooking.

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And, it was, a most fortunate thing to,

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to have grown up in this environment,

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and to have learnt.

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I mean, it wasn't just a matter of getting to eat,

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eat really good food, but just to see, seeing her

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and my grandmother prepare food,

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really just instilled in me an interest from just, you know,

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from from childhood on that

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and understanding, without really thinking it

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through, of course, as a child.

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But, you know, this is really important.

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And as I grew older, I sort of realized

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what a privilege was to actually just watch these women

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with their hands, preparing this food.

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And also finally, how central to

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our culture, say our Jewish culture.

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The preparation of this food, eat was

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and is before the war.

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And most people wouldn't know this,

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Jews in Eastern Europe that I say

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before the Holocaust, various pasta dishes

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were central to their diet.

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And it's estimated

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that there were about something like 40 different

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pasta shapes, as in Italian cooking.

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Pasta is pasta, but the shapes, you know, come

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with different names and things like that.

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That is, that was exactly the same as, as with us, with,

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you know, Yiddish had about 40 different names

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for different kinds of pasta.

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Uh, it was central. And so one became aware very much

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where this food came from, and we would learn, for example,

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because Yiddish was, was spoken over such a,

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a wide expanse of Europe.

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And then in countries, for example, whether it's,

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it was immigrants to the east end of London

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or to the lower East side of New York.

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Uh, they had different names for some

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of these very, these very things.

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It wasn't just one name for all of them.

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So one became, well, and I was attuned to it

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because I was interested in history, even as a,

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as a little kid in a sort of a romantic way,

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but not necessarily in a professional way like I do now.

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Um, one was aware of the origins,

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and that this was a link for me.

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The food was a link for me to,

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the old country in a way that happily,

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I wasn't there at the worst of times.

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Um, and, got to avoid that.

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And so, but it was a, a sort of a living link

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because they came with their foods, immigrants, wherever,

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whoever they are and wherever they are, come

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with their foods and try

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and, maintain those, food, food cultures that they,

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that they, they themselves were raised in.

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And so one was very, very much aware that for us, this was,

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this was food from Poland and a particular part of Poland,

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because, there are different kinds of cuisine,

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Jewish cuisine in Poland itself,

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it being a very big country, and also because of the names.

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Um, and 'cause I grew up in a year speaking home,

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it was, it was a real privilege just learning the names

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of these things that, you know, 99% of people,

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Jews wouldn't know today

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because they're gone book itself,

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extends from the Middle ages until today.

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So it covers a period of seven, 800 years.

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Um, many of the medieval documents,

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are available.

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They've been, they're, they're, they're published.

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They're printed sources now,

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and they've also appeared online.

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So I was able to make, make use of those.

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And as far as the writing process was concerned, I,

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was really writing, you know, steadily,

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in the, spring, it was of,

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2020.

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And I went to Australia on sabbatical.

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And so I was, near my mother,

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obviously, around my mother.

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I was in Melbourne. Um,

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and that was a very, that was both inspiring.

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Um, and, it also gave me a, a, a, a new look at

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what happened because, with meat,

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because what happened was that was when Covid broke,

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and in March, I think, when was it?

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Yeah, March of, yeah, 20. The, the shop shut.

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And they shot in, in, they shut

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all the shops began shutting down a couple of weeks

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before Passover that year.

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And there was widespread panic,

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and I do not use that word loosely,

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That the butcher shops were shutting down

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what would one do, for the holidays.

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And my mother, with her three fridges

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and, umpteen freezers,

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because it, it, it is on this huge scale.

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Um, and it's just for the family.

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Um, nonetheless, began to panic about,

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what would happen without the meat.

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So I said to her, well, you know,

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you can cook another vegetable dish.

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Well, she spun around,

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and gave me a look that only a mother could look, could say,

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and, said something in the Yiddish to me, which,

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which is, that without meat,

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there is no holiday.

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And that is a direct quote

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from the Talmud that you need it.

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And so it was really apparent to me

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as I was already writing the book, I was already committed

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to the book to be sure, but the presence

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of meat, or the absence of meat

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can cause a kind of, panic, if not,

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hysteria.

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And I don't mean that in a necess.

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It's, it's that important.

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You know, if one runs out of broccoli, you know,

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people aren't losing it.

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It's different with meat.

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Meat is a completely different order of food substance.

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There's a very, complex, complicated,

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and detailed body of dietary laws that are known

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as the kosher dietary laws, or KO root

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or something like that, at the center of which is meat.

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Um, and

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that meat that Jews eat, and meat that's,

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and meats that they can't eat.

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And in the Bible, there are meats that are listed

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that they can't eat, not so much meats that they can eat.

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So it's about the prohibitions, actually.

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So the way it's couched, that is absolutely, central

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and the way an animal is killed.

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So, for example, a cow is, inherently,

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potentially kosher,

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provided as slaughtered according to the rule, the diet,

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Jewish dietary laws.

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If it's not, then, then, then

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that animal is not kosher, and can't be consumed.

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Uh, there's no hierarchy, of,

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food that's kosher and non-kosher.

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Um, you know, a steak, as I said, in from an animal

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that hasn't been killed, is no more, is no,

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is no more kosher than, than a pork chop.

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Uh, there is no, there is no ranking.

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People seem to think there, there may be a ranking

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that pork being the most taboo of all meats.

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It's no more taboo than, than a steak that, than,

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or chicken that, for a chicken

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that hasn't been killed according to the dietary laws.

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Um, so the

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taken together, the, the meat occupies the central part

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of all of these dietary laws.

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Everything revolves around.

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There are no vegetables, for example, that are taboo.

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You know, there's, there's just nothing like that.

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Uh, but, but meets a completely different order.

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And, so that, that, that becomes the focus of the book.

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One of the things is that, from, from the advent

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of, well, Christianity on, you know, in the,

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in the New Testament, Jesus says, it's not

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that which you put into your mouth that is important, it's

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that which comes out of your mouth, which is important.

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And Paul said, you know, you can go to the meat market

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and buy anything you like and eat anything that you like.

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I paraphrase. Um,

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so ever since the sort of the, the advent, of,

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of Christianity, the laws of Judaism have proven

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to be a, a sticking point at the very least, that is

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to say, you know, a charge that the Jews are sort of,

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hooked on ceremony and laws

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and ritual, and, not about the spirit, you know,

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and, and Paul said there should be, as far

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as circumcision is, is concerned,

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there should be a circumcision of the heart, not

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of the flesh, right?

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So, all

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of Christianity, nothing particular.

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This is long before Germany ever existed.

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Of course, we're talking about, you know, antiquity.

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But as it's gone through, the relationship of,

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Christian societies, have reacted

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to the meat of the Jews in their presence in different ways.

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And, that story,

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whether, whether the reactions,

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the reactions may have all been the same.

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But what happened in Germany is, is that all of these,

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reactions to the meat of the Jews is documented

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in ways that it, it just hasn't been in other countries.

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Uh, and so there's a huge body of evidence, good

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and bad, you know, I mean, in terms of the story,

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that Germany has contributed something rather special,

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to this discourse about the meat of the Jews.

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Kosher meat is a, a or the dietary laws are,

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a source of distinctiveness

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and separation of Jews from non-Jews.

11:41.305 --> 11:44.895
Okay? So there's competition.

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Now, the competition, exist in the meat markets.

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Meat markets in the medieval period are some

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of the most highly regulated spaces, in Europe.

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There's rules and a raft of regulations

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for every single thing, as there is today.

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But already in the Middle Ages, they were highly,

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highly governed.

12:05.105 --> 12:10.055
Um, so you have the, the butchery trade,

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by, by definition, is competitive.

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If you have umpteen butchers in a market next to each other,

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by definition, you know, they're all struggling to,

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to sell their meat to customers, okay?

12:23.755 --> 12:27.655
But kosher meat is not only a source of, division

12:28.275 --> 12:32.645
or distinctiveness, it's also a source of cooperation.

12:34.105 --> 12:37.405
And so there's great cooperation in,

12:37.405 --> 12:40.765
between non-Jews and Jews when it comes to meat.

12:41.145 --> 12:42.165
Now, what does that mean?

12:43.465 --> 12:47.985
The, the rear end of an animal like a cow

12:49.315 --> 12:52.655
has, like all, all creatures, including humans,

12:52.715 --> 12:53.975
it has a sciatic nerve

12:54.645 --> 12:57.135
that sciatic nerve cannot be consumed.

12:58.635 --> 13:02.055
Uh, and it is usually, well, in Israel, it is removed,

13:02.435 --> 13:05.335
but it require, it's a very, very difficult nerve

13:05.355 --> 13:07.655
to get at without losing too much flesh

13:07.655 --> 13:11.335
and out without, really sort of hacking away.

13:11.335 --> 13:12.655
And he has one has to be particularly

13:12.655 --> 13:13.695
skilled to get rid of it.

13:14.195 --> 13:18.475
So, what has happened, for the most part, from antiquity,

13:19.235 --> 13:23.745
actually until today, you can't throw out half a cow so

13:23.855 --> 13:27.865
that those parts of the cow are sold to non-Jews.

13:30.145 --> 13:33.725
That's to the great advantage of, of, of non-Jews,

13:33.755 --> 13:36.125
because they can force the price, of course,

13:36.195 --> 13:37.765
because the Jews have no option.

13:37.765 --> 13:39.685
They can't eat it themselves. They have to get rid of it.

13:40.145 --> 13:44.485
So there's a form of cooperation, whereby,

13:44.795 --> 13:48.445
that mitigates sort of the, the competitiveness,

13:49.065 --> 13:52.165
and sets a, sets prices and,

13:52.985 --> 13:56.615
and, makes it

13:56.615 --> 13:59.255
that meat brings the two together, not just

14:00.495 --> 14:01.815
separates the two communities.

14:02.195 --> 14:03.255
And that's very important.

14:03.755 --> 14:06.535
Um, one of the things in Germany that is specific

14:06.535 --> 14:09.415
to Germany in the modern period is that, we have,

14:09.615 --> 14:12.175
I have testimony, you know, in the book,

14:12.205 --> 14:15.235
when there were,

14:15.625 --> 14:17.875
very heated disputes about,

14:18.295 --> 14:20.315
or a very heated campaign to get rid

14:20.315 --> 14:23.395
of kosher slaughter in the 19th century, which was,

14:23.615 --> 14:27.955
the brainchild of this, unholy alliance between,

14:28.185 --> 14:31.795
antisemitic politicians and animal rights societies,

14:31.935 --> 14:35.975
and the animal rights societies, you know,

14:36.275 --> 14:39.215
worked in tandem with, with politicians to try

14:39.215 --> 14:41.055
and get rid of the dietary laws.

14:41.475 --> 14:43.895
And what happens in Germany in those instances is

14:43.895 --> 14:47.575
that they gather together a huge raft

14:47.955 --> 14:51.205
of opinions that are called in German.

14:51.985 --> 14:55.685
And these good akan are basically for and against.

14:56.425 --> 14:58.085
Uh, and

15:01.695 --> 15:05.475
as far as the, the, the, the, these opinions are concerned,

15:05.735 --> 15:10.345
we see testimony given by non-Jewish, butchers

15:11.885 --> 15:14.345
who were working in abattoirs in,

15:15.015 --> 15:18.025
late 19th century in this huge industrial abattoirs in

15:18.025 --> 15:22.285
Germany who said that they kill their animals according

15:22.345 --> 15:23.765
to Jewish techniques.

15:24.725 --> 15:26.275
These are the non-Jewish butchers,

15:26.275 --> 15:30.335
because it helps remove the blood by that.

15:30.675 --> 15:33.215
And that's to the advantage of the, of the consumer,

15:33.215 --> 15:35.655
because they're not paying for blood, right?

15:36.125 --> 15:37.535
Meat that's weighed down with blood.

15:37.955 --> 15:42.095
And also it, the removal of blood, which is central

15:42.195 --> 15:44.695
to the, the, the way Jews kill meat,

15:47.725 --> 15:52.365
prevents, spoilage, from happening too quickly

15:52.545 --> 15:53.805
so it can last longer.

15:54.985 --> 15:58.965
So we even see people who are not, I mean, butch, you know,

15:58.965 --> 16:00.965
Christian butchers who are under no obligation

16:00.965 --> 16:02.325
to kill according to the dietary laws.

16:02.325 --> 16:04.685
And they're not saying the, the, the attendant prayers

16:04.685 --> 16:06.845
to these things so that the, the meat is not kosher.

16:06.985 --> 16:09.165
But the particular technique they use

16:09.785 --> 16:13.845
to slaughter the animal, they testify was taken from,

16:14.065 --> 16:16.605
the Jewish method, which they believe to be superior.

16:17.305 --> 16:20.165
The non-Jewish method, in the late 19th century.

16:20.305 --> 16:22.805
And here, Germany is really quite unique.

16:23.385 --> 16:26.865
Um, Germany being a, a,

16:27.365 --> 16:30.385
an industrial technological giant in the,

16:30.385 --> 16:32.585
in the 19th century,

16:35.415 --> 16:37.075
is concerned with, the way

16:37.135 --> 16:39.395
or the, the animal rights societies are concerned

16:39.395 --> 16:40.475
with the way the animals are killed.

16:40.535 --> 16:44.195
And in Germany, it was def it was, it was insisted upon

16:44.195 --> 16:45.715
that the animals be stunned.

16:45.845 --> 16:50.105
First. D you know,

16:50.745 --> 16:54.065
kosher, kosher dietary laws insist

16:54.065 --> 16:56.865
that there can be no stunning, that that death comes from a,

16:56.865 --> 16:59.105
you know, a single, a single slice to the throat.

17:01.905 --> 17:03.075
What happened in, and,

17:03.075 --> 17:05.355
and so there were charges that, you know, there were charges

17:05.385 --> 17:08.635
that this was particularly cruel and unusual by the Jews.

17:08.975 --> 17:12.395
And what happened in the non-Jewish abattoirs, of course, is

17:12.395 --> 17:15.555
that animals were just bludgeoned to death with, with,

17:15.745 --> 17:17.275
with, you know, a cow.

17:18.075 --> 17:20.235
A couple of guys would take sledge hammers to the cow

17:20.295 --> 17:23.635
and 6, 7, 10 blows or something like that.

17:23.835 --> 17:25.435
I mean, really, really bad.

17:25.495 --> 17:29.995
And so in Germany, there was a constant attempt by,

17:31.635 --> 17:36.145
abattoir supply firms to create techniques

17:36.965 --> 17:38.065
for stunning animals.

17:38.085 --> 17:41.505
And there were scores of them, and there were prizes given,

17:41.645 --> 17:46.145
and there were competitions for these new inventions more

17:46.145 --> 17:48.825
and more, which came out every, every single year.

17:49.305 --> 17:53.125
So Germany provides a really good laboratory to look at sort

17:53.125 --> 17:55.045
of latest technology,

17:55.905 --> 17:59.925
and, what I call in the book low tech startups,

17:59.925 --> 18:02.445
because really some of them were just really very cruel

18:03.055 --> 18:05.285
forms of, dispatching of the animal.

18:05.785 --> 18:09.205
Uh, so Germany in that, in that particular respect,

18:09.245 --> 18:11.605
provides us something that we don't see anywhere else.

18:11.745 --> 18:14.485
And that is, and Germany beco is important

18:14.485 --> 18:18.845
because, its meat consumption triples over the course

18:18.845 --> 18:19.845
of the 19th century.

18:20.425 --> 18:23.005
So meat is central to the, to the German diet.

18:23.705 --> 18:27.605
Um, it becomes therefore central to the German Jewish diet

18:27.605 --> 18:29.085
because as the country goes, so

18:29.085 --> 18:33.885
to do its Jewish communities, except that 60% of the meat,

18:34.225 --> 18:38.765
sold and consumed in, 19th century Germany is pork.

18:39.825 --> 18:42.125
So the question then becomes, well, what do you do

18:42.715 --> 18:44.285
with a community that can't,

18:45.155 --> 18:48.175
or doesn't for the most part, consume

18:48.755 --> 18:50.255
the meat of the majority?

18:50.715 --> 18:54.975
And what does that say about the potential for that minority

18:55.515 --> 18:56.695
to join the majority?

18:57.775 --> 18:59.205
These were the questions were asked.

18:59.285 --> 19:00.765
I mean, today, we wouldn't think twice about it.

19:00.765 --> 19:01.525
You want to eat meat,

19:01.945 --> 19:03.165
you don't want to eat meat, that's fine.

19:03.785 --> 19:05.165
But then it was very important.

19:05.555 --> 19:09.045
I'll give you a an example in, the,

19:09.425 --> 19:12.525
the Jews are not emancipated as a people, right?

19:12.675 --> 19:15.245
With civil, civil rights,

19:15.655 --> 19:18.445
until the 19th century in Germany, until 1871,

19:18.445 --> 19:21.325
when Germany itself becomes a unified country

19:21.635 --> 19:25.965
that happens in that year, and it's almost complete.

19:26.225 --> 19:31.195
Uh, there are still various, occupations

19:31.195 --> 19:33.395
that they can't, get into.

19:34.055 --> 19:35.955
Uh, there are still off limits to them, but

19:35.955 --> 19:37.475
nonetheless, they can.

19:37.475 --> 19:40.915
But in the 18th century, prior to, you know,

19:40.915 --> 19:43.235
in the 18th century, there were already the beginnings

19:43.735 --> 19:46.635
of these very heated debates as to whether the Jews

19:47.455 --> 19:48.555
can be emancipated.

19:49.065 --> 19:51.075
That is to say, can they be made European?

19:51.465 --> 19:53.595
They are, after all, people,

19:53.735 --> 19:55.435
not from here is what we said.

19:55.705 --> 19:58.495
They are from the orient.

19:58.795 --> 20:02.225
By the orient, they meant the Middle East, right?

20:02.965 --> 20:07.145
So how will that culture, you know, and we are Europeans.

20:07.145 --> 20:11.145
We are Christians, the, these dietary laws were framed

20:11.325 --> 20:13.145
and first invented in the Middle East.

20:13.485 --> 20:16.825
Are they appropriate to, Europe in the 18th century

20:16.925 --> 20:18.385
or Europe in the 19th century?

20:19.705 --> 20:22.165
And so the whole question is whether the Jews would have

20:22.225 --> 20:25.065
rights as an ethnic group

20:26.755 --> 20:29.735
for some hinged on the dietary laws,

20:29.735 --> 20:32.375
because the dietary laws inhibit

20:32.555 --> 20:37.335
or prevent entirely, the breaking of bread

20:38.495 --> 20:41.155
in the fullest sense of the term,

20:41.155 --> 20:42.555
between Jews and non-Jews.

20:42.555 --> 20:44.555
Well, how can you claim to be citizens

20:44.555 --> 20:47.165
of the same country if you can't eat together, is what some

20:47.165 --> 20:49.205
of the opponents of emancipation said.

20:49.785 --> 20:52.685
Uh, a couple of them from the 18th century, one by,

20:52.825 --> 20:56.765
by the name of Les Johan, David Les, who was a professor

20:56.765 --> 21:01.525
of Hebrew Bible at Geren, described the dietary laws

21:01.625 --> 21:04.605
as a cockade for the Israelites.

21:04.905 --> 21:07.525
And a ade is this ribbon that armies in the, in,

21:07.585 --> 21:09.845
in the 18th century in his day war.

21:10.545 --> 21:14.125
And so for him, he used that, he used that,

21:15.565 --> 21:18.645
metaphor, very specifically to say

21:18.645 --> 21:21.325
that the Jews themselves form an army

21:22.165 --> 21:23.975
because they wear this cockade,

21:24.155 --> 21:26.335
and the dietary laws are their cockade.

21:27.115 --> 21:29.055
So we can't have an army within an army.

21:29.365 --> 21:30.735
They can't join our army.

21:31.715 --> 21:35.555
Um, so that's, that, that is about the,

21:35.695 --> 21:39.155
in eradicable nature of Jewish, Jewish identity.

21:39.815 --> 21:43.715
Um, another guy

21:43.715 --> 21:45.155
who was actually a geringer,

21:45.155 --> 21:48.235
and the same faculty, the in the history faculty,

21:48.405 --> 21:51.915
Christophe miners, said that the,

21:52.015 --> 21:55.195
the dietary laws handed down by Moses were an expression

21:55.195 --> 21:58.155
of nationalist prejudice on the part of the Jews.

21:59.415 --> 22:03.515
So for a very, very long time, it was thought

22:03.635 --> 22:04.995
that the laws were designed

22:05.735 --> 22:07.435
to keep Jews separate and distinct.

22:07.535 --> 22:09.155
That's not, without some truth,

22:10.085 --> 22:11.345
that's not without some truth.

22:12.045 --> 22:15.905
Um, but what is,

22:17.115 --> 22:19.325
what one would argue, and what Jews at the time did argue,

22:19.325 --> 22:22.165
is that that shouldn't necessarily preclude one from

22:22.405 --> 22:26.945
becoming English or French or, or,

22:27.085 --> 22:29.905
or German for, for that matter story.

22:30.205 --> 22:31.265
Uh, look,

22:31.295 --> 22:34.265
many Jews would not have thought about the dietary laws,

22:34.265 --> 22:36.785
and the role that meat plays within the dietary laws.

22:37.455 --> 22:40.665
That would be very true for someone who, scru

22:41.185 --> 22:44.705
scrupulously adhere to the dietary laws and just as much.

22:44.705 --> 22:47.105
So for those who don't, by what I, I mean is this,

22:47.105 --> 22:49.865
if you are raised with strict adherence to the dietary laws,

22:50.365 --> 22:53.745
it has, as I was,

22:54.085 --> 22:55.505
you grow up with it, it's second nature.

22:55.525 --> 22:56.625
You don't think twice about it.

22:56.765 --> 22:58.425
You don't think twice about, you know,

22:58.425 --> 22:59.425
which cutlery you'll take.

22:59.425 --> 23:02.265
There are two sets of cutlery in kosher homes, right?

23:02.325 --> 23:05.185
For, for meat and for milk. You don't think twice about it.

23:06.165 --> 23:08.765
Um, so you don't think about it.

23:08.825 --> 23:10.445
You don't think about, even for people

23:10.465 --> 23:12.685
who are strictly kosher, they don't really necessarily,

23:13.195 --> 23:15.005
it's not, it's, it's, if you ask them,

23:15.005 --> 23:16.045
they'll say, yeah, you're right.

23:16.065 --> 23:19.165
Yes, I know the, the centrality of, of meat in, in,

23:19.165 --> 23:21.045
in the dietary laws, but you don't think about it.

23:21.945 --> 23:26.745
Um, but we see the,

23:26.845 --> 23:27.985
for today, what I want people

23:27.985 --> 23:32.145
to take from the book is the ongoing significance of meat,

23:32.765 --> 23:37.525
now in Germany specifically, the discussion

23:37.525 --> 23:38.565
that happened in the 18th

23:38.565 --> 23:42.405
and 19th century about the place, the appropriateness,

23:43.885 --> 23:46.485
the question of the, you know, are the Jews civilized,

23:46.915 --> 23:48.205
that revolves around meat,

23:48.825 --> 23:51.045
has now been transposed onto the question

23:51.045 --> 23:53.575
of halal meat in Germany.

23:54.115 --> 23:55.215
That's the discussion.

23:55.875 --> 23:58.135
Uh, and there are moves to get rid of halal meat.

23:58.155 --> 23:59.455
And all the arguments

23:59.455 --> 24:02.455
and discussions that, take place in Germany today

24:03.155 --> 24:07.895
are a rehash of these centuries old discourse,

24:08.355 --> 24:11.295
about kosher meat when Jews were the only non

24:11.295 --> 24:15.345
non-Christian, minority in, in, in Germany.

24:16.045 --> 24:20.065
So we see, we see a sort of a, you know,

24:20.065 --> 24:22.625
a revivification of these, this discourse

24:22.865 --> 24:24.985
and these charges and these accusations,

24:25.365 --> 24:28.345
but there's no place for halal meat in,

24:28.885 --> 24:30.065
in, in Germany.

24:30.525 --> 24:33.865
So Germany is still, or sectors of Germany,

24:34.085 --> 24:37.425
but important sectors like the animal rights societies,

24:37.765 --> 24:40.985
are still troubled by the meat of ethnic minorities.

24:41.455 --> 24:44.025
They have not been able to reconcile themselves to this.

24:44.045 --> 24:46.105
And I'll just give you one example if I can.

24:46.525 --> 24:50.625
Uh, by contrast, by way of contrast, I think it was 1851.

24:50.645 --> 24:53.305
One had the, I think in, in the, yeah, in the middle

24:53.305 --> 24:55.705
of the 19th century, there was a case

24:55.705 --> 24:58.385
that was brought against, a,

24:58.525 --> 25:00.345
Jewish butcher in the east end of London

25:00.925 --> 25:05.715
for the way he killed, an animal according

25:05.715 --> 25:06.755
to the dietary laws.

25:07.875 --> 25:09.415
And he was hauled before the court,

25:10.395 --> 25:14.255
and the judge found that,

25:16.025 --> 25:19.055
found that he was not in any position

25:19.955 --> 25:23.435
to impose any sanction on this butcher,

25:24.395 --> 25:29.005
because that would infringe upon the man's exercise

25:29.005 --> 25:30.645
of the free right of religion

25:30.825 --> 25:33.125
and would extend to the entire Jewish community.

25:33.125 --> 25:34.645
And that would be totally incompatible

25:34.915 --> 25:36.205
with British notions of freedom.

25:39.115 --> 25:43.565
So we see in Germany similar things,

25:43.665 --> 25:45.405
but there's a certain, and that, that was,

25:45.465 --> 25:47.445
for the most part, that was the end of it In Britain,

25:48.145 --> 25:50.925
in Germany, when the animal rights societies got knocked

25:50.925 --> 25:53.525
back time and time again, when they tried to outlaw it,

25:53.835 --> 25:54.925
they were indefatigable.

25:54.925 --> 25:58.685
They kept coming back to, to continue to argue the point.

25:59.585 --> 26:03.795
And, and, they were never successful.

26:04.105 --> 26:06.595
This is what's interesting at the, at, you know,

26:06.595 --> 26:08.675
at the local level, there were all clause,

26:08.675 --> 26:11.275
there were clauses in the state, constitutions of the very,

26:11.455 --> 26:12.755
of the various states in Germany

26:13.185 --> 26:14.835
that guaranteed freedom of religion.

26:15.335 --> 26:20.055
And that always won the day when the Nazis finally come in,

26:20.755 --> 26:23.655
and Hitler comes to power January the 30th, 1933,

26:24.545 --> 26:26.535
April 21st, 1933,

26:26.845 --> 26:29.805
they just outlaw kosher slaughter.

26:31.505 --> 26:33.965
That's less than, it's about 11 weeks

26:33.965 --> 26:35.125
after he gets into power.

26:35.295 --> 26:38.725
After he gets into power, you can measure the importance

26:38.725 --> 26:41.925
of a law by how close it is enacted

26:42.705 --> 26:43.925
since he's coming to power.

26:45.255 --> 26:46.875
And so that's pretty high up on the list.

26:46.975 --> 26:50.635
So what I want, people to take from this is

26:50.635 --> 26:52.235
that this is still an ongoing story,

26:52.335 --> 26:56.675
but it's now, it's now about, it's now about,

26:56.935 --> 26:58.795
halal and Muslims in Germany.

26:59.375 --> 27:01.235
And finally, I just wanna say this

27:01.235 --> 27:04.075
because it's, you know, it's so contemporary.

27:04.655 --> 27:09.075
Um, we still see the, the, importance of meat today

27:09.665 --> 27:10.835
with the lie

27:10.935 --> 27:12.075
and the conspiracy theory

27:12.075 --> 27:15.475
that's being told about Haitian immigrants in Springfield,

27:15.705 --> 27:20.035
Ohio, about their consumption of pets and dogs

27:20.295 --> 27:22.155
and cats, et cetera.

27:22.575 --> 27:24.075
So the story would be

27:24.075 --> 27:26.555
of absolutely no interest If there was,

27:26.555 --> 27:29.435
some conspiracy theory saying that,

27:29.865 --> 27:33.395
insisting on the centrality of cauliflower in the, in,

27:33.395 --> 27:34.715
in the Haitian diet, and that they have

27:34.715 --> 27:37.835
to have it at every meal, no, no one would,

27:37.845 --> 27:40.795
would care less about that, wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

27:41.695 --> 27:44.555
But because it entails eating meats

27:46.325 --> 27:47.545
as much of a lie as it is,

27:47.605 --> 27:52.405
but what makes it incendiary is a, that it's people's pets,

27:52.405 --> 27:55.045
but, but even more so that it is a kind of a meat

27:55.045 --> 27:56.325
that the majority doesn't eat.

27:57.565 --> 27:59.515
There are cultures where these things are eaten.

28:00.895 --> 28:04.525
Uh, and so it leads to charges of inhumanity,

28:05.475 --> 28:10.365
cruelty, incompatibility difference,

28:11.425 --> 28:14.445
ethnic identity, all of which differ from that

28:14.445 --> 28:14.965
of the majority.

00:00 - I've had a long interest in food, which comes actually from, the way I was raised. and that is to say, cooking was done on an almost commercial scale in our house. It wasn't for commercial purposes. but, my mother,

00:17 - my mother was originally from Poland. they had a bakery in Poland. So I grew up with, just an extraordinarily, delicious baked goods coming in and outta the oven. But my mother, expanded her repertoire to sort of savory foods and, combined, very strict adherence to the di the dietary laws, kosher dietary laws with French cooking techniques. Now, there's a limit to how much you can do that's, for example, you know, you can't mix, you know,

00:48 - you can't cook a steak in a cream sauce or something like that. So she took all these, prohibitions, as a challenge, to both adhere to the laws and to cook delicious food. So I grew up in a, I would say, an environment of culinary privilege, that is to say, it was, we ate like this every night. And, the preparation of food, the thought that went into it,

01:12 - and the presentation of food was just all important and still remains the case for my mother today, who's almost 91, and, next week. And, she's still cooking. And, it was, a most fortunate thing to, to have grown up in this environment, and to have learnt. I mean, it wasn't just a matter of getting to eat, eat really good food, but just to see, seeing her and my grandmother prepare food,

01:42 - really just instilled in me an interest from just, you know, from from childhood on that and understanding, without really thinking it through, of course, as a child. But, you know, this is really important. And as I grew older, I sort of realized what a privilege was to actually just watch these women with their hands, preparing this food. And also finally, how central to our culture, say our Jewish culture.

02:13 - The preparation of this food, eat was and is before the war. And most people wouldn't know this, Jews in Eastern Europe that I say before the Holocaust, various pasta dishes were central to their diet. And it's estimated that there were about something like 40 different pasta shapes, as in Italian cooking. Pasta is pasta, but the shapes, you know, come

02:41 - with different names and things like that. That is, that was exactly the same as, as with us, with, you know, Yiddish had about 40 different names for different kinds of pasta. it was central. And so one became aware very much where this food came from, and we would learn, for example, because Yiddish was, was spoken over such a, a wide expanse of Europe. And then in countries, for example, whether it's, it was immigrants to the east end of London

03:08 - or to the lower East side of New York. they had different names for some of these very, these very things. It wasn't just one name for all of them. So one became, well, and I was attuned to it because I was interested in history, even as a, as a little kid in a sort of a romantic way, but not necessarily in a professional way like I do now. one was aware of the origins, and that this was a link for me.

03:31 - The food was a link for me to, the old country in a way that happily, I wasn't there at the worst of times. and, got to avoid that. And so, but it was a, a sort of a living link because they came with their foods, immigrants, wherever, whoever they are and wherever they are, come with their foods and try and, maintain those, food, food cultures that they, that they, they themselves were raised in.

03:59 - And so one was very, very much aware that for us, this was, this was food from Poland and a particular part of Poland, because, there are different kinds of cuisine, Jewish cuisine in Poland itself, it being a very big country, and also because of the names. and 'cause I grew up in a year speaking home, it was, it was a real privilege just learning the names of these things that, you know, 99% of people, Jews wouldn't know today because they're gone book itself,

04:30 - extends from the Middle ages until today. So it covers a period of seven, 800 years. many of the medieval documents, are available. They've been, they're, they're, they're published. They're printed sources now, and they've also appeared online. So I was able to make, make use of those. And as far as the writing process was concerned, I, was really writing, you know, steadily,

05:03 - in the, spring, it was of, 2020. And I went to Australia on sabbatical. And so I was, near my mother, obviously, around my mother. I was in Melbourne. and that was a very, that was both inspiring. and, it also gave me a, a, a, a new look at what happened because, with meat, because what happened was that was when Covid broke,

05:36 - and in March, I think, when was it? Yeah, March of, yeah, 20. The, the shop shut. And they shot in, in, they shut all the shops began shutting down a couple of weeks before Passover that year. And there was widespread panic, and I do not use that word loosely, That the butcher shops were shutting down what would one do, for the holidays. And my mother, with her three fridges

06:07 - and, umpteen freezers, because it, it, it is on this huge scale. and it's just for the family. nonetheless, began to panic about, what would happen without the meat. So I said to her, well, you know, you can cook another vegetable dish. Well, she spun around, and gave me a look that only a mother could look, could say, and, said something in the Yiddish to me, which,

06:33 - which is, that without meat, there is no holiday. And that is a direct quote from the Talmud that you need it. And so it was really apparent to me as I was already writing the book, I was already committed to the book to be sure, but the presence of meat, or the absence of meat can cause a kind of, panic, if not, hysteria.

07:06 - And I don't mean that in a necess. It's, it's that important. You know, if one runs out of broccoli, you know, people aren't losing it. It's different with meat. Meat is a completely different order of food substance. There's a very, complex, complicated, and detailed body of dietary laws that are known as the kosher dietary laws, or KO root or something like that, at the center of which is meat.

07:37 - and that meat that Jews eat, and meat that's, and meats that they can't eat. And in the Bible, there are meats that are listed that they can't eat, not so much meats that they can eat. So it's about the prohibitions, actually. So the way it's couched, that is absolutely, central and the way an animal is killed. So, for example, a cow is, inherently, potentially kosher,

08:11 - provided as slaughtered according to the rule, the diet, Jewish dietary laws. If it's not, then, then, then that animal is not kosher, and can't be consumed. there's no hierarchy, of, food that's kosher and non-kosher. you know, a steak, as I said, in from an animal that hasn't been killed, is no more, is no, is no more kosher than, than a pork chop. there is no, there is no ranking.

08:42 - People seem to think there, there may be a ranking that pork being the most taboo of all meats. It's no more taboo than, than a steak that, than, or chicken that, for a chicken that hasn't been killed according to the dietary laws. so the taken together, the, the meat occupies the central part of all of these dietary laws. Everything revolves around. There are no vegetables, for example, that are taboo.

09:14 - You know, there's, there's just nothing like that. but, but meets a completely different order. And, so that, that, that becomes the focus of the book. One of the things is that, from, from the advent of, well, Christianity on, you know, in the, in the New Testament, Jesus says, it's not that which you put into your mouth that is important, it's that which comes out of your mouth, which is important. And Paul said, you know, you can go to the meat market and buy anything you like and eat anything that you like.

09:50 - I paraphrase. so ever since the sort of the, the advent, of, of Christianity, the laws of Judaism have proven to be a, a sticking point at the very least, that is to say, you know, a charge that the Jews are sort of, hooked on ceremony and laws and ritual, and, not about the spirit, you know, and, and Paul said there should be, as far as circumcision is, is concerned, there should be a circumcision of the heart, not

10:25 - of the flesh, right? So, all of Christianity, nothing particular. This is long before Germany ever existed. Of course, we're talking about, you know, antiquity. But as it's gone through, the relationship of, Christian societies, have reacted to the meat of the Jews in their presence in different ways. And, that story, whether, whether the reactions,

11:03 - the reactions may have all been the same. But what happened in Germany is, is that all of these, reactions to the meat of the Jews is documented in ways that it, it just hasn't been in other countries. and so there's a huge body of evidence, good and bad, you know, I mean, in terms of the story, that Germany has contributed something rather special, to this discourse about the meat of the Jews. Kosher meat is a, a or the dietary laws are, a source of distinctiveness

11:39 - and separation of Jews from non-Jews. Okay? So there's competition. Now, the competition, exist in the meat markets. Meat markets in the medieval period are some of the most highly regulated spaces, in Europe. There's rules and a raft of regulations for every single thing, as there is today. But already in the Middle Ages, they were highly, highly governed. so you have the, the butchery trade,

12:10 - by, by definition, is competitive. If you have umpteen butchers in a market next to each other, by definition, you know, they're all struggling to, to sell their meat to customers, okay? But kosher meat is not only a source of, division or distinctiveness, it's also a source of cooperation. And so there's great cooperation in, between non-Jews and Jews when it comes to meat. Now, what does that mean? The, the rear end of an animal like a cow

12:49 - has, like all, all creatures, including humans, it has a sciatic nerve that sciatic nerve cannot be consumed. and it is usually, well, in Israel, it is removed, but it require, it's a very, very difficult nerve to get at without losing too much flesh and out without, really sort of hacking away. And he has one has to be particularly skilled to get rid of it. So, what has happened, for the most part, from antiquity,

13:19 - actually until today, you can't throw out half a cow so that those parts of the cow are sold to non-Jews. That's to the great advantage of, of, of non-Jews, because they can force the price, of course, because the Jews have no option. They can't eat it themselves. They have to get rid of it. So there's a form of cooperation, whereby, that mitigates sort of the, the competitiveness, and sets a, sets prices and, and, makes it

13:56 - that meat brings the two together, not just separates the two communities. And that's very important. one of the things in Germany that is specific to Germany in the modern period is that, we have, I have testimony, you know, in the book, when there were, very heated disputes about, or a very heated campaign to get rid of kosher slaughter in the 19th century, which was,

14:23 - the brainchild of this, unholy alliance between, antisemitic politicians and animal rights societies, and the animal rights societies, you know, worked in tandem with, with politicians to try and get rid of the dietary laws. And what happens in Germany in those instances is that they gather together a huge raft of opinions that are called in German. And these good akan are basically for and against. and

15:01 - as far as the, the, the, the, these opinions are concerned, we see testimony given by non-Jewish, butchers who were working in abattoirs in, late 19th century in this huge industrial abattoirs in Germany who said that they kill their animals according to Jewish techniques. These are the non-Jewish butchers, because it helps remove the blood by that. And that's to the advantage of the, of the consumer, because they're not paying for blood, right?

15:36 - Meat that's weighed down with blood. And also it, the removal of blood, which is central to the, the, the way Jews kill meat, prevents, spoilage, from happening too quickly so it can last longer. So we even see people who are not, I mean, butch, you know, Christian butchers who are under no obligation to kill according to the dietary laws. And they're not saying the, the, the attendant prayers to these things so that the, the meat is not kosher.

16:06 - But the particular technique they use to slaughter the animal, they testify was taken from, the Jewish method, which they believe to be superior. The non-Jewish method, in the late 19th century. And here, Germany is really quite unique. Germany being a, a, an industrial technological giant in the, in the 19th century, is concerned with, the way or the, the animal rights societies are concerned

16:39 - with the way the animals are killed. And in Germany, it was def it was, it was insisted upon that the animals be stunned. First. D you know, kosher, kosher dietary laws insist that there can be no stunning, that that death comes from a, you know, a single, a single slice to the throat. What happened in, and, and so there were charges that, you know, there were charges that this was particularly cruel and unusual by the Jews.

17:08 - And what happened in the non-Jewish abattoirs, of course, is that animals were just bludgeoned to death with, with, with, you know, a cow. A couple of guys would take sledge hammers to the cow and 6, 7, 10 blows or something like that. I mean, really, really bad. And so in Germany, there was a constant attempt by, abattoir supply firms to create techniques for stunning animals. And there were scores of them, and there were prizes given,

17:41 - and there were competitions for these new inventions more and more, which came out every, every single year. So Germany provides a really good laboratory to look at sort of latest technology, and, what I call in the book low tech startups, because really some of them were just really very cruel forms of, dispatching of the animal. so Germany in that, in that particular respect, provides us something that we don't see anywhere else. And that is, and Germany beco is important

18:14 - because, its meat consumption triples over the course of the 19th century. So meat is central to the, to the German diet. it becomes therefore central to the German Jewish diet because as the country goes, so to do its Jewish communities, except that 60% of the meat, sold and consumed in, 19th century Germany is pork. So the question then becomes, well, what do you do with a community that can't, or doesn't for the most part, consume

18:48 - the meat of the majority? And what does that say about the potential for that minority to join the majority? These were the questions were asked. I mean, today, we wouldn't think twice about it. You want to eat meat, you don't want to eat meat, that's fine. But then it was very important. I'll give you a an example in, the, the Jews are not emancipated as a people, right?

19:12 - With civil, civil rights, until the 19th century in Germany, until 1871, when Germany itself becomes a unified country that happens in that year, and it's almost complete. there are still various, occupations that they can't, get into. there are still off limits to them, but nonetheless, they can. But in the 18th century, prior to, you know, in the 18th century, there were already the beginnings

19:43 - of these very heated debates as to whether the Jews can be emancipated. That is to say, can they be made European? They are, after all, people, not from here is what we said. They are from the orient. By the orient, they meant the Middle East, right? So how will that culture, you know, and we are Europeans. We are Christians, the, these dietary laws were framed and first invented in the Middle East.

20:13 - Are they appropriate to, Europe in the 18th century or Europe in the 19th century? And so the whole question is whether the Jews would have rights as an ethnic group for some hinged on the dietary laws, because the dietary laws inhibit or prevent entirely, the breaking of bread in the fullest sense of the term, between Jews and non-Jews. Well, how can you claim to be citizens

20:44 - of the same country if you can't eat together, is what some of the opponents of emancipation said. a couple of them from the 18th century, one by, by the name of Les Johan, David Les, who was a professor of Hebrew Bible at Geren, described the dietary laws as a cockade for the Israelites. And a ade is this ribbon that armies in the, in, in the 18th century in his day war. And so for him, he used that, he used that, metaphor, very specifically to say

21:18 - that the Jews themselves form an army because they wear this cockade, and the dietary laws are their cockade. So we can't have an army within an army. They can't join our army. so that's, that, that is about the, in eradicable nature of Jewish, Jewish identity. another guy who was actually a geringer, and the same faculty, the in the history faculty,

21:48 - Christophe miners, said that the, the dietary laws handed down by Moses were an expression of nationalist prejudice on the part of the Jews. So for a very, very long time, it was thought that the laws were designed to keep Jews separate and distinct. That's not, without some truth, that's not without some truth. but what is, what one would argue, and what Jews at the time did argue,

22:19 - is that that shouldn't necessarily preclude one from becoming English or French or, or, or German for, for that matter story. look, many Jews would not have thought about the dietary laws, and the role that meat plays within the dietary laws. That would be very true for someone who, scru scrupulously adhere to the dietary laws and just as much. So for those who don't, by what I, I mean is this, if you are raised with strict adherence to the dietary laws,

22:50 - it has, as I was, you grow up with it, it's second nature. You don't think twice about it. You don't think twice about, you know, which cutlery you'll take. There are two sets of cutlery in kosher homes, right? For, for meat and for milk. You don't think twice about it. so you don't think about it. You don't think about, even for people who are strictly kosher, they don't really necessarily,

23:13 - it's not, it's, it's, if you ask them, they'll say, yeah, you're right. Yes, I know the, the centrality of, of meat in, in, in the dietary laws, but you don't think about it. but we see the, for today, what I want people to take from the book is the ongoing significance of meat, now in Germany specifically, the discussion that happened in the 18th and 19th century about the place, the appropriateness,

23:43 - the question of the, you know, are the Jews civilized, that revolves around meat, has now been transposed onto the question of halal meat in Germany. That's the discussion. and there are moves to get rid of halal meat. And all the arguments and discussions that, take place in Germany today are a rehash of these centuries old discourse, about kosher meat when Jews were the only non

24:11 - non-Christian, minority in, in, in Germany. So we see, we see a sort of a, you know, a revivification of these, this discourse and these charges and these accusations, but there's no place for halal meat in, in, in Germany. So Germany is still, or sectors of Germany, but important sectors like the animal rights societies, are still troubled by the meat of ethnic minorities. They have not been able to reconcile themselves to this.

24:44 - And I'll just give you one example if I can. by contrast, by way of contrast, I think it was 1851. One had the, I think in, in the, yeah, in the middle of the 19th century, there was a case that was brought against, a, Jewish butcher in the east end of London for the way he killed, an animal according to the dietary laws. And he was hauled before the court, and the judge found that,

25:16 - found that he was not in any position to impose any sanction on this butcher, because that would infringe upon the man's exercise of the free right of religion and would extend to the entire Jewish community. And that would be totally incompatible with British notions of freedom. So we see in Germany similar things, but there's a certain, and that, that was, for the most part, that was the end of it In Britain,

25:48 - in Germany, when the animal rights societies got knocked back time and time again, when they tried to outlaw it, they were indefatigable. They kept coming back to, to continue to argue the point. And, and, they were never successful. This is what's interesting at the, at, you know, at the local level, there were all clause, there were clauses in the state, constitutions of the very, of the various states in Germany that guaranteed freedom of religion.

26:15 - And that always won the day when the Nazis finally come in, and Hitler comes to power January the 30th, 1933, April 21st, 1933, they just outlaw kosher slaughter. That's less than, it's about 11 weeks after he gets into power. After he gets into power, you can measure the importance of a law by how close it is enacted since he's coming to power. And so that's pretty high up on the list.

26:46 - So what I want, people to take from this is that this is still an ongoing story, but it's now, it's now about, it's now about, halal and Muslims in Germany. And finally, I just wanna say this because it's, you know, it's so contemporary. we still see the, the, importance of meat today with the lie and the conspiracy theory that's being told about Haitian immigrants in Springfield,

27:15 - Ohio, about their consumption of pets and dogs and cats, et cetera. So the story would be of absolutely no interest If there was, some conspiracy theory saying that, insisting on the centrality of cauliflower in the, in, in the Haitian diet, and that they have to have it at every meal, no, no one would, would care less about that, wouldn't raise an eyebrow. But because it entails eating meats

27:46 - as much of a lie as it is, but what makes it incendiary is a, that it's people's pets, but, but even more so that it is a kind of a meat that the majority doesn't eat. There are cultures where these things are eaten. and so it leads to charges of inhumanity, cruelty, incompatibility difference, ethnic identity, all of which differ from that of the majority.

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