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Can conducting be taught?

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Luke Dollman discusses how Conducting is a relatively young art, with the concept of a specialist conductor taking hold in the late 19th century.

Image courtesy of interviewee. March 28, 2024

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This video video provides a comprehensive overview of the role and evolution of conducting orchestras, particularly focusing on its necessity, challenges, and pedagogical approaches.

1. **Historical Context**: In the 18th and early 19th centuries, conductors weren't always essential, especially for smaller performances like chamber orchestras. However, as orchestras expanded, the need for a conductor became more pronounced to unify diverse musical opinions and provide visual cues for timing.

2. **The Role of Conductors**: Conductors serve as central figures to guide musicians, helping to synchronize their performances and make rehearsals more efficient. Effective conducting requires a multitude of skills, including instrumental mastery, musical theory knowledge, strong auditory skills, and the ability to communicate effectively with the orchestra.

3. **Skills and Training**: While conducting can be taught, certain innate traits and specific skills are harder to impart. A conductor should ideally be proficient in multiple instruments, understand musical history, and have the capacity to form personal connections with orchestra members.

4. **Training Programs**: Various prestigious conducting programs around the world (e.g., the Sibelius Academy, Juilliard, Peabody) emphasize practical experience with orchestras. Notable pedagogical methods include those of Yma Pela and Ilya Musin, who had differing approaches to conducting education.

5. **Challenges for Conductors**: Conductors face unique training challenges because they depend on orchestras for practice, which entails significant costs. The narrative emphasizes the importance of building personal relationships to achieve effective communication and leadership within an orchestra.

6. **Conclusion**: Great conductors like Simon Rattle exemplify the essential qualities of good communication and strong leadership. Ultimately, respect from musicians can be earned through a combination of leadership skills and solid musical knowledge.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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In, in the 18th century, in early 19th century,

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there was a, the conductor wasn't always,

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so necessary depending on the works being performed.

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And, you know, you'll still see orchestras performing

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without a conductor, particularly chamber

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orchestras, these days.

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The Australian Chamber Orchestra is a

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perfect example of that.

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Um, but the bigger the orchestra gets,

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the more the conductor becomes a necessity.

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And when you get a just a certain group of people,

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a certain number of people in the same room making music

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together, this sort of central point, this nexus point

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of the conductor, becomes even,

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yeah, steadily more important.

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There are a few different reasons.

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Um, the one thing when you've got,

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so many musicians in the same room,

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let's say you've got a symphony orchestra of

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around 70, 75 musicians, that's a whole sort

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of diverse range of musical opinions you've got in the room.

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And to actually, rehearse a work

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and come to a unified opinion would be almost impossible.

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Uh, there was an orchestra actually in the Soviet Union in

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the early 20th century, which tried to do this

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to rehearse big works without using a conductor,

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but they needed weeks and weeks of rehearsals,

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to get anything done.

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And a anybody who's played even in a small chamber music

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group, knows that, discussions about,

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you know, even the tiniest details can take up

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an enormous amount of time.

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Uh, so to have one person there standing out the front

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who says, okay, this is what we're going to do,

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just makes the, the whole thing practical for one reason.

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And the other reason, is partly physics,

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because the more people you get in the room,

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the further people are apart from each other.

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Um, so if the person at the back of the orchestra goes with

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what they're, what they hear,

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their sound will sound late at the front of the orchestra.

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Um, so to have a sort of visual cue,

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a visual reference point, which everybody can play off

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and refer to,

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is enormously helpful in getting the

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orchestra just to play together.

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Conducting as a profession, sort of gradually

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came about through the course of the 19th century

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and, really became a thing, in the 20th century.

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So in the 19th century, we had, leading composers

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who were conductors, and it was quite common for them

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to get up and conduct their own works.

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Uh, people like Louis Bo at the very beginning,

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Mendelssohn, Wagner is a very clear example.

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Uh, Hector Bes.

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Uh, and then towards the end of the century, Gustav Mala,

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who of course we today remember, a great composer.

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Um, but in his own time,

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he was much better known as a conductor.

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Um, that was, that was what he did.

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He was a, a, a really good example of a,

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a full-time professional conductor from that period.

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And it, that, that just gradually flowed

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through to the 20th century.

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And, yeah, in the 20th century, it, it's been,

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a pretty normal thing.

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And, you know, the growth of the Symphony

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Orchestra has gone along with that.

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The conductor should have an incredibly broad

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range of skills, actually.

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Um, and this is, one of the challenges of teaching,

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conducting, so ideally a conductor, you know,

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in an ideal world, the conductor would be,

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have mastered at least one instrument, if not several,

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in an ideal world that would actually play all

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of the instruments of the

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orchestra to know how they all work.

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But, that really happens, as you can imagine.

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Um, they need to have a good knowledge of,

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musical history, of musical theory, be able

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to analyze, works, know how they're structured, be able

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to see the works from the composer's point of view.

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Uh, they need to have very good ears.

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Uh, they need to be able to sort of analyze what's going on

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as they conduct, hear

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what the orchestra is playing very precisely,

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and to be able to come up with rehearsal strategies

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as the music is going along,

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and know what they're going to say

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to the orchestra when they stop.

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And they should be a very good instinctive musician,

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and they should be a very good communicator, you know,

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that it's really a human bond that they have to form

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with the orchestra for this tour work successfully.

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And then you can add to that if they're conducting opera,

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that they should know at least, German, Italian

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and French fluently, hopefully Russian,

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Czech, et cetera.

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Um, so there are so many things

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that a good conductor should be able to do.

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And the truth is, you very rarely,

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come across a conductor who can do, you know,

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even 99% of those things.

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I think even even the greats, you know, of our,

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of the last a hundred years probably got to 98 or 99%.

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Um, they had almost all of the pieces of the puzzle.

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And for us, mere mortals, we try

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and get as many of the pieces

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of the puzzle together as we can.

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Um, but yeah, it's a,

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it's a huge job actually being a good conductor.

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This is something that's been argued about, for as long

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as conducting has been taught,

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which is probably roughly a hundred years or so now.

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Um, and I think the, the very, very short answer is

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that yes, you can teach conducting, you can always help

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to make a conductor better, and give them experience

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and give them tips and give them guidance.

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So in this sense, absolutely, yes, you can teach conducting,

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but, there are so many things involved in conducting,

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as we already discussed.

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Um, you can't teach all of those things.

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Um, so there are aspects of,

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or certain skills that a conductor should have,

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which are very difficult to deliver,

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in a training system, you know, particularly if it's sort

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of a university training system or something like that.

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Um, so we can definitely teach conducting, I would say.

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Um, we can definitely make people better,

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make people a better version of themselves.

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Um, but to cover everything

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or to teach, to take a, a sort of ordinary musician,

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if you like, and turn them into a Bernstein, of course,

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that's beyond any teacher or any teaching program.

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So there are a number of fantastic conducting programs

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around the world these days.

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I think the thing that they all have in common is

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that they give the conducting students a chance to work

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with an orchestra to actually experience

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for real what it's like.

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'cause this is one of the, the big challenges.

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Um, I'm a violinist myself.

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I can pr get my violin out

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whenever I want, don't do it so much anymore.

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But, whenever I want to get my violin violin out, I can,

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I know I can practice and that costs nothing.

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Um, on the other hand, for a conductor, you need

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to have musicians in the room with you.

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Um, ideally an orchestra just to practice giving a gesture

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and seeing what response comes back.

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And orchestras are expensive. Uh, so that's a big challenge.

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But the be the best programs have some kind of

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orchestral contact, that's realistic,

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that's built into them.

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Uh, so a very good example is the Sebelius

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Academy and Helsinki.

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Um, I was fortunate enough to study there myself,

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back in 2001 to two 2003, where the Leif Sager Star

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and Yma Pela,

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and Yma Pela is, one of the sort

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of leading pedagogues we can say of the last, yeah, I mean,

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in the history of the teaching,

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conducting actually in the last a hundred years,

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YMA founded that program in the 1970s.

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And from the very beginning,

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it was about giving the students a chance to conduct

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a small chamber orchestra.

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And he also, brought in the use

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of the video camera even in the late seventies,

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when the cameras were these enormous things

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and you needed to have special lighting

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for them and all the rest of it.

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Um, but he insisted this was, really important, way

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to teach conducting

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and to give the students the opportunity to see themselves

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at work and see for themselves what exactly they were doing.

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And the added benefit is that it frees up the teacher

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to be able to give feedback

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after their session with watching the video footage rather

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than having to interrupt during a training session.

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Uh, so the Bay Academy, it's,

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still producing excellent graduates, graduates,

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you know, Savannah Malki, Mula Smo,

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you know, it could go on and on.

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Um, thank Petersburg,

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has been historically very, very strong as well.

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Uh, there was a very famous teacher there called I Musan,

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who taught, I believe it was from 1933

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until 1999 when he passed away.

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Um, so 66 years, as professor of conducting

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and taught many of the Russian names that are famous today,

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like Valerie Gev or Dugan Saev.

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Um, and they again,

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had a professional symphony orchestra in

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residence as part of their program.

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Um, and it's actually an interesting contrast between,

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YMA ELAs method and IA Musen.

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Uh, 'cause Yma was quite free, if you like.

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He wanted to take the way you worked and the way you moved

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and work with that to shape it into something

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that just worked better, a better version of yourself,

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of whatever you were bringing to the table.

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And whereas Ia Mu had had really specific ideas

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about exactly how the hands should move,

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so very contrasting approach approaches pedagogically.

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Um, but both produced absolutely fantastic results.

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Um, elsewhere.

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Um, Julliard School in New York has,

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long had a great program, very well respected,

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Peabody in Baltimore, very great program.

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Currently Marin Ssop, teaching there.

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Um, university of Michigan, Ann Arbor has a,

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an excellent reputation too.

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Um, in Paris,

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there has been a good conducting program in Vienna.

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Vienna is definitely worth talking about.

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Um, in Vienna in the 1960s, Hans Ky,

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was a very fan of famous pedagogue there, taught many

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leading conductors, Zubin mate for one.

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Um, and Vienna's, an interesting case,

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still an excellent conducting program there.

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Um, they normally have two classes running

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side by side, two teachers.

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And, their program is more based on the old sort

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of German school, if I can put it that way.

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Um, the approach of, every student should play the piano

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to some extent at least,

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and they play the piano, they play the keyboard

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for each other, and that forms the basis of most of the

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teaching, but especially these days, they also get to work

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with orchestras as well, which is obviously a vital program,

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vital part of the program.

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And, they're very fortunate in Vienna that they have,

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a formidable, range of courses in terms, in terms

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of music theory, harmony, listening, oral training,

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all the rest of it as well.

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Um, so there are lots of good programs around,

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here in Australia.

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Um, I've spent the last seven years getting a conducting

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program going at the University of Adelaide,

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which we've done in collaboration

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with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra, as partners

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who have been wonderful to work with

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and have given the opportunity

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to ask students to work with them.

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Um, yeah, and this is the key ingredient

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in a good conducting program.

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The most difficult

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Thing, the most difficult aspect, for a teacher

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to help develop in a student is this personal relationship,

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this human side of conducting the human

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relationship with the orchestra.

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Um, and you know, when you look at a great conductor, likes,

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likes the Simon Rattle, he is such a great communicator.

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He has this natural charisma

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and sort of ease of working with people.

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And, not all of us can do that.

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That's not natural for all of us.

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Um, but you know, we can all sort of be a version

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of ourselves, I think, when we're on the podium

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and working with an orchestra

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and just learning to communicate with people,

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to share ideas.

12:38.425 --> 12:39.925
Um, yeah,

12:40.265 --> 12:44.085
and just good basic leadership qualities, as long as, and,

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and, you know, if you have those good basic qualities

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and, combined with a good knowledge of the score,

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a really good foundational knowledge of the music

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that you're performing, then you'll get the

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respect of the musicians.

12:57.075 --> 12:59.015
And I think everybody can do that.

00:00 - In, in the 18th century, in early 19th century, there was a, the conductor wasn't always, so necessary depending on the works being performed. And, you know, you'll still see orchestras performing without a conductor, particularly chamber orchestras, these days.

00:16 - The Australian Chamber Orchestra is a perfect example of that. but the bigger the orchestra gets, the more the conductor becomes a necessity. And when you get a just a certain group of people, a certain number of people in the same room making music together, this sort of central point, this nexus point of the conductor, becomes even, yeah, steadily more important. There are a few different reasons.

00:43 - the one thing when you've got, so many musicians in the same room, let's say you've got a symphony orchestra of around 70, 75 musicians, that's a whole sort of diverse range of musical opinions you've got in the room. And to actually, rehearse a work and come to a unified opinion would be almost impossible. there was an orchestra actually in the Soviet Union in the early 20th century, which tried to do this to rehearse big works without using a conductor,

01:15 - but they needed weeks and weeks of rehearsals, to get anything done. And a anybody who's played even in a small chamber music group, knows that, discussions about, you know, even the tiniest details can take up an enormous amount of time. so to have one person there standing out the front who says, okay, this is what we're going to do, just makes the, the whole thing practical for one reason. And the other reason, is partly physics,

01:46 - because the more people you get in the room, the further people are apart from each other. so if the person at the back of the orchestra goes with what they're, what they hear, their sound will sound late at the front of the orchestra. so to have a sort of visual cue, a visual reference point, which everybody can play off and refer to, is enormously helpful in getting the orchestra just to play together.

02:12 - Conducting as a profession, sort of gradually came about through the course of the 19th century and, really became a thing, in the 20th century. So in the 19th century, we had, leading composers who were conductors, and it was quite common for them to get up and conduct their own works. people like Louis Bo at the very beginning, Mendelssohn, Wagner is a very clear example. Hector Bes. and then towards the end of the century, Gustav Mala,

02:43 - who of course we today remember, a great composer. but in his own time, he was much better known as a conductor. that was, that was what he did. He was a, a, a really good example of a, a full-time professional conductor from that period. And it, that, that just gradually flowed through to the 20th century. And, yeah, in the 20th century, it, it's been, a pretty normal thing.

03:06 - And, you know, the growth of the Symphony Orchestra has gone along with that. The conductor should have an incredibly broad range of skills, actually. and this is, one of the challenges of teaching, conducting, so ideally a conductor, you know, in an ideal world, the conductor would be, have mastered at least one instrument, if not several, in an ideal world that would actually play all of the instruments of the

03:33 - orchestra to know how they all work. But, that really happens, as you can imagine. they need to have a good knowledge of, musical history, of musical theory, be able to analyze, works, know how they're structured, be able to see the works from the composer's point of view. they need to have very good ears. they need to be able to sort of analyze what's going on as they conduct, hear what the orchestra is playing very precisely,

04:02 - and to be able to come up with rehearsal strategies as the music is going along, and know what they're going to say to the orchestra when they stop. And they should be a very good instinctive musician, and they should be a very good communicator, you know, that it's really a human bond that they have to form with the orchestra for this tour work successfully. And then you can add to that if they're conducting opera, that they should know at least, German, Italian

04:28 - and French fluently, hopefully Russian, Czech, et cetera. so there are so many things that a good conductor should be able to do. And the truth is, you very rarely, come across a conductor who can do, you know, even 99% of those things. I think even even the greats, you know, of our, of the last a hundred years probably got to 98 or 99%. they had almost all of the pieces of the puzzle.

04:56 - And for us, mere mortals, we try and get as many of the pieces of the puzzle together as we can. but yeah, it's a, it's a huge job actually being a good conductor. This is something that's been argued about, for as long as conducting has been taught, which is probably roughly a hundred years or so now. and I think the, the very, very short answer is that yes, you can teach conducting, you can always help

05:25 - to make a conductor better, and give them experience and give them tips and give them guidance. So in this sense, absolutely, yes, you can teach conducting, but, there are so many things involved in conducting, as we already discussed. you can't teach all of those things. so there are aspects of, or certain skills that a conductor should have, which are very difficult to deliver, in a training system, you know, particularly if it's sort

05:55 - of a university training system or something like that. so we can definitely teach conducting, I would say. we can definitely make people better, make people a better version of themselves. but to cover everything or to teach, to take a, a sort of ordinary musician, if you like, and turn them into a Bernstein, of course, that's beyond any teacher or any teaching program. So there are a number of fantastic conducting programs around the world these days.

06:25 - I think the thing that they all have in common is that they give the conducting students a chance to work with an orchestra to actually experience for real what it's like. 'cause this is one of the, the big challenges. I'm a violinist myself. I can pr get my violin out whenever I want, don't do it so much anymore. But, whenever I want to get my violin violin out, I can, I know I can practice and that costs nothing.

06:50 - on the other hand, for a conductor, you need to have musicians in the room with you. ideally an orchestra just to practice giving a gesture and seeing what response comes back. And orchestras are expensive. so that's a big challenge. But the be the best programs have some kind of orchestral contact, that's realistic, that's built into them. so a very good example is the Sebelius Academy and Helsinki.

07:20 - I was fortunate enough to study there myself, back in 2001 to two 2003, where the Leif Sager Star and Yma Pela, and Yma Pela is, one of the sort of leading pedagogues we can say of the last, yeah, I mean, in the history of the teaching, conducting actually in the last a hundred years, YMA founded that program in the 1970s. And from the very beginning, it was about giving the students a chance to conduct

07:49 - a small chamber orchestra. And he also, brought in the use of the video camera even in the late seventies, when the cameras were these enormous things and you needed to have special lighting for them and all the rest of it. but he insisted this was, really important, way to teach conducting and to give the students the opportunity to see themselves at work and see for themselves what exactly they were doing.

08:17 - And the added benefit is that it frees up the teacher to be able to give feedback after their session with watching the video footage rather than having to interrupt during a training session. so the Bay Academy, it's, still producing excellent graduates, graduates, you know, Savannah Malki, Mula Smo, you know, it could go on and on. thank Petersburg, has been historically very, very strong as well.

08:47 - there was a very famous teacher there called I Musan, who taught, I believe it was from 1933 until 1999 when he passed away. so 66 years, as professor of conducting and taught many of the Russian names that are famous today, like Valerie Gev or Dugan Saev. and they again, had a professional symphony orchestra in residence as part of their program. and it's actually an interesting contrast between,

09:21 - YMA ELAs method and IA Musen. 'cause Yma was quite free, if you like. He wanted to take the way you worked and the way you moved and work with that to shape it into something that just worked better, a better version of yourself, of whatever you were bringing to the table. And whereas Ia Mu had had really specific ideas about exactly how the hands should move, so very contrasting approach approaches pedagogically. but both produced absolutely fantastic results.

09:54 - elsewhere. Julliard School in New York has, long had a great program, very well respected, Peabody in Baltimore, very great program. Currently Marin Ssop, teaching there. university of Michigan, Ann Arbor has a, an excellent reputation too. in Paris, there has been a good conducting program in Vienna. Vienna is definitely worth talking about.

10:21 - in Vienna in the 1960s, Hans Ky, was a very fan of famous pedagogue there, taught many leading conductors, Zubin mate for one. and Vienna's, an interesting case, still an excellent conducting program there. they normally have two classes running side by side, two teachers. And, their program is more based on the old sort of German school, if I can put it that way. the approach of, every student should play the piano

10:55 - to some extent at least, and they play the piano, they play the keyboard for each other, and that forms the basis of most of the teaching, but especially these days, they also get to work with orchestras as well, which is obviously a vital program, vital part of the program. And, they're very fortunate in Vienna that they have, a formidable, range of courses in terms, in terms of music theory, harmony, listening, oral training, all the rest of it as well.

11:25 - so there are lots of good programs around, here in Australia. I've spent the last seven years getting a conducting program going at the University of Adelaide, which we've done in collaboration with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra, as partners who have been wonderful to work with and have given the opportunity to ask students to work with them. yeah, and this is the key ingredient

11:49 - in a good conducting program. The most difficult Thing, the most difficult aspect, for a teacher to help develop in a student is this personal relationship, this human side of conducting the human relationship with the orchestra. and you know, when you look at a great conductor, likes, likes the Simon Rattle, he is such a great communicator. He has this natural charisma and sort of ease of working with people.

12:20 - And, not all of us can do that. That's not natural for all of us. but you know, we can all sort of be a version of ourselves, I think, when we're on the podium and working with an orchestra and just learning to communicate with people, to share ideas. yeah, and just good basic leadership qualities, as long as, and, and, you know, if you have those good basic qualities

12:47 - and, combined with a good knowledge of the score, a really good foundational knowledge of the music that you're performing, then you'll get the respect of the musicians. And I think everybody can do that.

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