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City Time: On Being Sentenced to Rikers Island

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David Campbell provides an insider perspective of daily life in New York City’s most notorious house of correction

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 23, 2024

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The speaker discusses their motivations for writing a book about their experiences of incarceration on Rikers Island, focusing on the absurdities and difficulties of the prison system. They collaborated with Jared Shanahan, who also has experience on Rikers. Rikers Island is portrayed as a notorious facility in New York City, known for its violence and unsanitary conditions, particularly affecting young men from marginalized communities.

The speaker reflects on their arrest during an anti-fascist protest and the unfairness of plea deals. They detail the psychological toll and societal stigma associated with incarceration, contrasting it with respectable forms of isolation experienced in research settings or space missions. The speaker views their time in jail through an ethnographic lens, documenting daily life and social dynamics among inmates.

The narration highlights the inmates' role in managing their environment, pointing out that they create social structures and norms to cope with the difficulties of prison life. The discussion also dives into the different categories of incarceration, focusing on the unique challenges of city time versus state prison and pretrial detention.

The speaker notes the communal sense of accountability among inmates, including hygiene practices and informal rules. They address the pervasive influence of race, class, and gang affiliations on the prison experience, emphasizing that many inmates enter jail with an understanding of its dynamics based on familial and community history.

The speaker concludes by critiquing the overall effectiveness of incarceration, arguing that it fails to rehabilitate and reflects broader societal issues without providing detailed policy suggestions. They stress the need for a shift towards investing in social services and acknowledge the deep-rooted nature of systemic neglect in the criminal justice system.

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I wrote this book in large part to, make sense of

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and produce something useful from the experience

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of being incarcerated on Rikers Island.

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I wrote it in conjunction,

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with my friend Jared Shanahan,

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who also served time on Rikers Island a

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few years before myself.

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And, it, it just kind of fell into place kind

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of naturally at the outset, me kind

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of approaching the experience of incarceration

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as a participant observer, was a coping mechanism.

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So Rikers is,

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is an island in the East River in New York City.

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Uh, it's sandwiched between the Bronx and Queens.

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Um, and on this island there are a

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number of jail facilities.

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So the island is only for incarcerating people.

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Uh, it's accessible via one single bridge from Queens.

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And it is, it has been for, a long time,

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New York City's, primary, jail site.

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So there are other jails throughout, New York City.

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You want more information on sort of the history

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of the New York City jail system.

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You can read, Jared Shanahan's book, captives,

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which focuses mainly on Rikers, but not only,

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and Rikers is really well known

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because it's, it's, you know,

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a s******e, I don't know what other term to use.

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Uh, yeah. Um, it's, it's, it's very dirty.

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It's very violent. Um, it's, it's kind of,

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almost the rite of passage for a lot

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of working class young men of color in New York,

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because they're overpoliced and over incarcerated.

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And, you know, like a lot

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of working class New Yorkers will just refer to it

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as the island, even though it's a city, you know,

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with a bunch of islands,

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because we all know which one we're talking about.

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Right. Um, it's, it's, it's kind of a part of, of the,

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of the folk knowledge of, of New York.

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You know, it's, it's this place you don't want to go,

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and it's always just kind

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of hanging out there in the, in the East River.

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I was arrested in the anti-fascist protest,

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and I was made an example of by, by the prosecutor

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that we don't have to get into details on that,

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but that's, that's the long and short of it.

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Um, when I went away, I mean,

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it was so absurd to me,

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because the plea deals that we were getting were so,

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disproportionate.

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Um, because the length of time, I mean,

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serving time in the first place was so absurd,

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in relation to what had actually happened, that it was hard

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for me to wrap my brain around.

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I mean, you know,

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but again, it's one of those things, it's like,

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I've never had to deal with that because I come from a,

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a privileged, background.

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You know, I grew up like upper middle class.

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I'm a white guy from the suburbs. I have a college degree.

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You know, I'm, I'm, I'm not a native New Yorker.

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Um, and that's just stuff that like is, is

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so far removed from the realm of possibility

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for me at this point in my life, right?

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When I get arrested, when I'm facing time,

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that it's almost unthinkable, right?

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Whereas for working class men of color,

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especially in New York, it's like, well,

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this is a, a reality.

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And again, almost the rite of passage, right?

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So for me, it was something that I had to go

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through all the stages of grief,

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And I was in denial about it, and then I had to accept it.

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And once I accepted the absurdity of it

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and accepted that this is an absurd reality

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that is absurdly visited upon vast numbers

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of working class men day in

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and day out, there's this certain like, okay,

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this realization that people deal with this, right?

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And they deal with this by accepting it as a fact of life.

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And, there are certain things that are going

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to be very physically difficult in terms of comfort level,

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socially difficult

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and psychologically difficult in terms

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of orienting yourself.

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But at the end of the day, a lot

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of what's difficult about it is the fact

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that you're supposed to feel bad

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that it's a socially stigmatized experience, right?

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And not a socially valorized experience, like other forms

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of isolation.

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So people who go and to an Antarctic research center

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or like a submarine

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or the the International Space Station are going

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through something uncomfortable and isolating,

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but it's for a useful end,

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and it's socially valorizes, right?

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So I started to think about it in that kind of context.

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Think about it in the context of this is something

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that people have found ways to cope with.

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And then lastly, the, the thing that I think will link this

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to maybe our next question is, I was encouraged

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to approach it as, ethnographic research

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by a member of my defense committee.

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Defense committees are a, a, a long running,

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tradition in the sort of radical left,

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anti repression, milieu.

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So you have people that come together

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and help someone who's facing

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or preparing to do jail or prison time.

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And one of the members of my defense committee had trained

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as an anthropologist.

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I think he conducted research

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among the Roma in Eastern Europe.

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But anyway, he, you know, he,

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he kind of gave me the, the rundown.

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He gave me the basics of ethnography.

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He said, this is, a really rare glimpse into,

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a, a, a world that is very much under reported on.

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So try and approach it that way,

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and it'll help you, maybe deal with it too,

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because it'll be less, less personal.

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You have a little remove the,

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the day-to-day research was like me, you know,

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waking up living my life,

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and when other people talked about things, which, you know,

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I served my whole 12 months in a, in a, a dorm,

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you know, in different dorms.

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So there's always noise, there's always

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talk, there's always chatter.

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Uh, people talked about things that are interesting

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or people have interactions that you,

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you think, well, maybe there's something to that.

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Maybe that speaks to some reality, some social reality,

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that isn't evident to me, right?

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But is evident to that. Um, and,

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and I would just note these things down, right?

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And, you know, I'm not trying

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to like dupe anyone into giving me information.

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You know, I'm not trying to guide the conversation

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more than out of curiosity, you know what I mean?

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Um, I'm just living this reality

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and journaling like, you know, a lot of people do,

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because it's a great way for you to, to cope

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with the day-to-Day reality, sort of the structure.

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And, and, and the process for my journaling was trying

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to be a participant observer.

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And so along certain axes rights, like, you know,

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how people understand, their relation

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to the institution when a lot

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of the staff come from the same neighborhoods as them,

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how, how things like race masculinity, violence,

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you know, sharing resources, how, how, how those sorts

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of things function, right?

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City time is a term, that is proper

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to Rikers, to our understanding.

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And it speaks to serving a short sentence in a jail, in,

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in specifically the city jail of Rikers Island,

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rather than serving time in state

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or federal prison, which is much different,

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culturally in terms of the infrastructure, in terms

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of the resources that you have access to

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and different from, being in pretrial detention

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in a local jail, like a city jail, county jail, whatever.

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Those are very different experiences, psychologically,

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for the person undergoing that experience.

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Uh, if you are detained pretrial, you may be charged

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with a very serious crime,

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and you may be with other people who are facing, lots

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of time, I mean, years or decades, right?

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There will probably be people mixed in there

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who are just parole violators serving a couple months.

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Um, you know, you might be, have someone in

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for jumping a turnstile or graffiti

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or something depending on the jurisdiction, right?

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Kind of depends how the law works where you are.

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But there will be people in there

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who are facing serious time,

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and maybe they know that they're on camera doing it.

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So they're probably already more mentally invested in the,

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the jail and prison system than they are focused on

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their future in the outside world.

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If you're in a state prison, there's also that, that sort

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of like, well, there's a culture here, there's a code here

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because we're here for a little while.

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And that could be a couple years, which is not that long

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of the big picture, but still, there's the sense

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of prison is the big leagues.

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Jail is the minor leagues.

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And in pretrial detention, which is 90%

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of the people in jail, it's very hectic

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because no one knows when they're getting out.

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Everybody's got a court date coming up.

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It's so, mentally,

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taxing just to not know.

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And when you're doing city time,

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you're serving 16 months maximum six sentences that,

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that long are very rare.

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You know, I was sentenced to 18 months.

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I was serving 12 with time produced for good behavior.

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That was rare. I mean, people call me a lifer sometimes,

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you know, because by city time standards, that's rare.

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Uh, some people are serving as little as 10 days.

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Some people are serving a few weeks, a few months.

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So you see kind of what I'm getting at.

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You can imagine if you put yourself in that position, right,

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you've gotta do some jail time.

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Now, you go some, some time behind bars.

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You, you could do it in a prison

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where there's more of a code.

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There's, maybe more violence,

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but there's kind of more respect, for, other people.

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And in New York State prisons,

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at least, there are more amenities.

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Uh, there are more things to help you pass the time.

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Um, and on the other hand,

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pretrial detention, it's just so hectic.

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People are coming and going every day,

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and a lot of them are facing serious

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time, seriously stressed out.

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'cause the future's so uncertain. And in the middle,

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a very small portion of the under,

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of the incarcerated population, you have city time,

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which is short sentences served in jail facilities.

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You know, one of the things you talk about in the book is

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that the, the bulk of the work of running the facility

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as like a structured world that's, you know, very difficult

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to live in, but has some logic to it,

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is done by the prisoners.

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Um, you know, they, they create a society, they make do with

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what they have, which is not much.

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And yeah, it's often based on violence.

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Um, but, you know, I mean, it's not

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so different from the society at large.

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It's just a little more, evident, right?

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Um, what they do is they find ways to make sense

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of the time that kind of weighs on you.

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I mean, there's a lot of writing about how time, you know,

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like classic Irving Goffman talked about

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how in total institutions, it's like,

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it's just almost impossible not to feel the time,

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moving slowly past you, right?

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And then people who are incarcerated,

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they feel like this time has been stolen from them, right?

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It's like dead time

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and you just can't wait for it to finish,

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which makes it go so much slower.

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So it's all about finding ways to structure your day,

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structure your social world, so

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that you can pass this time, right?

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And that could mean, you know,

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cooking communal meals together in the evening.

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That could mean having a good workout routine.

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For me, it was, exercise is part of it,

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but also reading, writing, translating,

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those are the things I built my day around going to work.

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Um, you know, sanitation is really important,

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and that includes personal hygiene.

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You know, personal hygiene is part of collective sanitation.

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In there. People will let you know if you smell bad

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and you need to buy some deodorant at

10:31.885 --> 10:33.325
commissary or it's gonna be a problem.

10:33.905 --> 10:36.165
Um, people will let you know if,

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when you are using the toilet, it smells bad

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and you need to flush multiple times.

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It's expected when you go to the toilet.

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Otherwise, it's gonna be a problem

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because we're all living here, you know,

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we have to share odors.

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And there's, so there, there, there are these rules

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that are, you know, even to the, the level of

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what toilets you can urinate in

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and what toilets you can defecate in.

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All that's regulated by the prisoners.

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And they will just write a little sign on a piece of paper,

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put on the wall with the toothpaste,

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and let you know, don't pee in these toilets.

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Don't poop in these toilets. You know, like, easy.

11:08.395 --> 11:11.695
Um, but so, so when we talk about structuring reality

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and structuring time to, to give it some sense in some way,

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that's the kind of stuff what, I mean,

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it extends to every facet of life.

11:18.095 --> 11:20.215
I mean, the phones, for example, one

11:20.215 --> 11:21.895
of examples we've give in the book,

11:22.085 --> 11:23.775
from a co couple of different perspectives.

11:24.315 --> 11:26.815
You know, I lived in a dorm, a dorm, the first dorm

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that I lived in where, it was expected

11:29.015 --> 11:30.135
that you would brush your teeth and wash

11:30.135 --> 11:31.215
your hands before you got on the phone.

11:31.275 --> 11:34.775
And it could be, it could be an issue for you if you did,

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and there was a sign to that effect posted, on the wall

11:37.975 --> 11:40.055
by the phones, the, the staff, you have to go through them

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to, to get anything you want, right?

11:41.755 --> 11:43.975
So that's, it's hygiene products like

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toilet paper and toothpaste.

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Um, you know, you gotta visit, well, you,

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you gotta have a staff escort

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walk you down to the visit floor.

11:50.595 --> 11:52.535
You need to go to the clinic. You know, you have to have a,

11:52.855 --> 11:54.765
a staff member, particular staff are,

11:54.825 --> 11:57.045
are obviously in control of the situation in terms

11:57.045 --> 11:58.645
of they're the ones who hold the keys, right?

11:58.645 --> 12:01.725
They're, they're, they're there in, in, they're there

12:01.725 --> 12:02.765
because they have regular jobs

12:02.905 --> 12:04.365
or what, what they call regular jobs.

12:04.945 --> 12:06.345
Um, right?

12:06.645 --> 12:08.145
And, and you're there because you broke the law,

12:08.145 --> 12:09.265
and you need to be corrected, right?

12:09.605 --> 12:13.345
And so, obviously the structure of the day, right?

12:13.575 --> 12:16.865
When the lights come on, when the day room closes

12:17.445 --> 12:20.265
and you have to leave the day room so they can do a count

12:20.325 --> 12:22.065
and make sure no one's tried to escape or whatever.

12:22.565 --> 12:26.025
Um, all of those things right, are coming from the staff.

12:26.445 --> 12:30.185
But when it comes to actually like helping you make sense

12:30.405 --> 12:33.465
of the world that you're in, that it's completely hands off.

12:33.585 --> 12:35.185
I mean, there's an anecdote we mentioned in the book.

12:35.185 --> 12:37.105
There was, an alarm,

12:37.305 --> 12:38.665
I think in my first week or two.

12:39.365 --> 12:41.505
And, you know, I, I think I had a visit,

12:42.475 --> 12:44.055
or I was trying to go to the mail room or something,

12:44.555 --> 12:47.895
and I asked the, the CEO if I could go, you know, the,

12:47.995 --> 12:49.975
the guard if I could, if I could go.

12:49.975 --> 12:51.255
And she said, there's an alarm right now.

12:51.575 --> 12:52.655
I was like, what's an alarm? You know?

12:52.655 --> 12:54.855
And to explain that, it means that there was an incident.

12:55.035 --> 12:56.255
And so they locked the building down.

12:56.445 --> 12:58.735
It's a lockdown, right? So there was a fight in the hallway

12:58.795 --> 13:01.335
or something, so nobody's moving anywhere, right?

13:01.715 --> 13:02.935
All the, all the gates are staying closed

13:02.935 --> 13:03.975
until they get the issue resolved.

13:04.315 --> 13:05.415
And I asked her, what's an alarm?

13:05.535 --> 13:07.375
I mean, never been to jail before. I have no idea.

13:07.715 --> 13:09.335
She just goes, ask your fellow inmates, sir.

13:09.595 --> 13:10.655
You know, like, ask your fellow

13:10.655 --> 13:11.815
inmates, they'll explain it to you.

13:11.815 --> 13:14.895
And they did. You know, again, that extends

13:14.895 --> 13:18.415
to really every level of daily life under city time.

13:18.845 --> 13:20.775
It's the inmates that you can rely on to help you,

13:21.205 --> 13:22.375
even though you have to go

13:22.375 --> 13:24.135
through the staff to get everything done.

13:24.645 --> 13:26.935
They're not reliable in the way that inmates are.

13:26.935 --> 13:28.535
That doesn't mean we're all friends, we're all buddy buddy.

13:28.995 --> 13:31.975
But there's a resource there, right?

13:32.245 --> 13:36.095
That most people will tap into, first, right?

13:37.135 --> 13:38.995
And in some cases, you can only get certain things

13:38.995 --> 13:40.315
through the inmates, like the shower head.

13:40.315 --> 13:42.795
We talk about different types of folk knowledge affordances

13:42.795 --> 13:45.355
who use the term affordances to talk about physical ways

13:45.355 --> 13:46.795
of modifying, modifying your

13:46.795 --> 13:48.315
environment to make it more comfortable.

13:48.615 --> 13:51.475
Shower heads, water shoots out in a really uncomfortable

13:51.475 --> 13:52.515
way in some of the dorms.

13:52.775 --> 13:54.435
So some of the guys find a way to cut open

13:54.955 --> 13:57.115
a plastic shampoo bottle and tape it on there.

13:57.415 --> 13:59.395
Now, keep in mind, tape is illegal, right?

13:59.395 --> 14:00.475
Knives are illegal, right?

14:00.855 --> 14:03.555
And so you have, you have to solicit these resources from

14:03.855 --> 14:05.035
the people in your housing unit.

14:05.455 --> 14:07.795
And you know this, it's an example of one of those things

14:07.795 --> 14:10.035
that you can only get from your fellow prisoners.

14:10.035 --> 14:11.995
You can't go to Stanford pe People who kind of look

14:11.995 --> 14:14.995
and talk like me, generally don't get sentenced to time

14:14.995 --> 14:17.555
behind bars because we live in a system in which,

14:17.555 --> 14:21.275
what they call justice is meted out, with,

14:21.275 --> 14:22.275
with quite a lot of bias.

14:22.535 --> 14:23.835
Uh, right?

14:23.935 --> 14:25.555
So I stood out like a sore thumb in there,

14:25.555 --> 14:26.715
and people wanted to know why I was there.

14:27.095 --> 14:29.475
You know, it's, it's, it's not at all taboo

14:29.655 --> 14:31.315
to ask people, what are you in for?

14:31.615 --> 14:33.555
But I got asked that a lot, especially when I started,

14:33.655 --> 14:35.635
you know, after a while, word kind of got around.

14:36.415 --> 14:38.235
Um, and that was actually very helpful for me.

14:38.775 --> 14:40.875
Um, you know, you have to have kind of like a,

14:41.315 --> 14:43.635
a six second version of your story, right?

14:44.055 --> 14:46.795
You cannot get into, and, and I think it's too complicated,

14:46.795 --> 14:48.475
and I think it's longer than like 10 seconds as

14:48.475 --> 14:50.075
to why you're there is suspicious.

14:50.455 --> 14:51.885
People don't wanna hear that. Yeah.

14:51.945 --> 14:55.525
And so, you know, mine was, I beat up a Trump supporter.

14:55.545 --> 14:57.565
Now that is a gross oversimplification,

14:58.145 --> 15:02.565
but, you know, not too far from, from, from the truth.

15:02.785 --> 15:04.045
And that resonated with people,

15:04.045 --> 15:05.285
people who go into Rikers in general.

15:05.625 --> 15:07.925
You know, I, I can only speak from what I observed, right?

15:08.015 --> 15:09.845
Can't speak from firsthand experience.

15:10.305 --> 15:11.565
Um, well, what I observed

15:11.565 --> 15:13.645
and the research that I've done since I've been released,

15:13.645 --> 15:17.575
since I was released, a lot of people going into Rikers,

15:17.755 --> 15:19.775
have some sense of what it's like

15:19.775 --> 15:21.815
because they've heard about it from friends and family.

15:22.475 --> 15:24.695
Uh, again, because they come from impoverished,

15:24.695 --> 15:26.295
over policed over incarcerated neighborhoods.

15:26.835 --> 15:28.855
My brother and my dad, my uncle, whatever,

15:29.155 --> 15:30.215
and people who say, you know,

15:30.215 --> 15:31.295
my grandfather was in Rikers.

15:31.295 --> 15:34.255
It's like, you know, thi this is not like, again,

15:34.255 --> 15:35.695
it's the opposite of unthinkable for them.

15:35.725 --> 15:36.815
It's a very real reality.

15:37.195 --> 15:39.575
And even though it sucks on some level,

15:39.575 --> 15:41.095
it's also an opportunity to prove yourself.

15:41.475 --> 15:43.735
Um, you know, and so,

15:43.985 --> 15:45.695
these people are coming in with a sense of what it's like.

15:46.315 --> 15:50.015
Um, a lot of them know people from the street in there,

15:50.125 --> 15:51.575
because New York's a big city.

15:51.635 --> 15:53.415
But at the end of the day, you know,

15:53.845 --> 15:56.055
even a big city exists in a small world.

15:56.115 --> 15:57.815
You know, if I could say it like that, that you,

15:57.835 --> 15:59.495
you might run into, I ran into people I know,

15:59.635 --> 16:00.655
you know, I knew from the street.

16:00.815 --> 16:02.775
I mean, sort of locals in the neighborhood

16:02.775 --> 16:04.295
that I lived in, in, in Brooklyn.

16:04.755 --> 16:07.775
Um, but yeah, people who recognize me from the bodega,

16:07.975 --> 16:10.095
whatever gang affiliation is a big,

16:10.935 --> 16:12.155
is a big factor for a lot of people.

16:12.655 --> 16:15.995
Um, so if, if you have a gang affiliation

16:16.015 --> 16:18.435
and you're in greens, which means you're serving city time,

16:18.615 --> 16:21.235
you, you wear different, you different color uniforms.

16:21.235 --> 16:24.515
If you're in pretrial detention, which again is 90% of the

16:25.115 --> 16:27.715
prisoner population, you are wearing a sort of beige outfit.

16:28.095 --> 16:29.635
And if you're serving city time,

16:29.635 --> 16:32.275
which again is only about 10%, you're wearing forest green.

16:32.415 --> 16:34.235
So if you're in greens,

16:34.375 --> 16:37.515
and you're in a gang, you're kind of like,

16:38.015 --> 16:39.035
not really expected.

16:39.535 --> 16:42.395
You, you kind of get a pass, you know, I'm not a gang,

16:42.895 --> 16:44.235
but, but,

16:44.335 --> 16:46.795
but still, you're gonna group together with your gang.

16:46.895 --> 16:51.155
So when I was in Rikers, the authorities were trying

16:51.155 --> 16:54.635
to house, gangs together in one housing unit

16:54.935 --> 16:56.955
to eliminate conflict between gangs.

16:57.055 --> 16:58.475
So you would have a crypto dorm, a blood dorm,

16:58.475 --> 16:59.555
a Latin king dorm, et cetera.

17:00.295 --> 17:02.435
And so if you're in a gang

17:02.655 --> 17:04.475
and they, they know you're in a gang,

17:04.495 --> 17:05.515
or you tell 'em you're in a gang,

17:05.515 --> 17:07.035
because it could be a problem for you.

17:07.035 --> 17:09.395
If you end up in the wrong gang, housing unit,

17:09.865 --> 17:11.595
then you're gonna go to the gang housing unit.

17:12.015 --> 17:13.715
And if people attack one

17:13.715 --> 17:14.755
of the other gang members in the hallway

17:14.815 --> 17:16.635
or something in a, in a place where you mix

17:16.635 --> 17:17.675
with people from other housing units,

17:18.175 --> 17:19.555
and you don't jump

17:19.695 --> 17:22.475
to defend your fellow gang member, that could be a problem for you.

17:22.615 --> 17:23.635
So that's where thing can kind

17:23.635 --> 17:25.395
of shape your experience, right?

17:26.015 --> 17:29.515
Um, again, none of these things were issues for me, right?

17:29.615 --> 17:32.075
But, conception of what it's like,

17:32.195 --> 17:33.315
neighborhood friend

17:33.315 --> 17:37.475
and family ties, gang ties, in Rikers

17:37.475 --> 17:40.515
and in the upstate prison system, Muslims perform some

17:40.515 --> 17:42.875
of the func, self-defense functions of gangs.

17:43.115 --> 17:44.635
Interestingly, Muslim inmates,

17:44.635 --> 17:46.475
Muslim prisoners will generally defend each other.

17:46.775 --> 17:47.995
So religion can play a role.

17:48.335 --> 17:51.365
Um, if you're queer, are trans, when I started my sense

17:51.365 --> 17:53.165
of Rikers, you were sent to a single housing unit.

17:53.975 --> 17:55.275
Um, so sexual identity

17:55.295 --> 17:57.515
or gender identity, can play a role in,

17:57.515 --> 17:58.595
in what your experience looks like.

17:59.255 --> 18:01.075
I'm not in the habit of, of telling people

18:03.165 --> 18:06.145
what policy goals we should have for,

18:06.455 --> 18:08.065
decarceration and abolition.

18:09.245 --> 18:12.025
Uh, I think obviously there should be the goals,

18:12.255 --> 18:15.945
because incarceration hasn't worked, continues to not work.

18:17.435 --> 18:18.695
Uh, if it was working, people

18:18.695 --> 18:20.335
wouldn't continue to go back to it.

18:21.085 --> 18:22.705
And I don't think it's that complicated.

18:23.405 --> 18:25.465
Invest in social services, derate.

18:25.805 --> 18:28.145
Uh, beyond that, I don't really get into policy stuff

18:28.145 --> 18:30.225
because it's not my wheelhouse.

18:30.405 --> 18:33.185
And as soon as you stick your neck out, you know,

18:33.605 --> 18:34.945
you're just looking to get skewed.

18:35.025 --> 18:37.785
I mean, it is, you know, an interview that Fuko did,

18:38.085 --> 18:41.055
you know, I think in maybe the eighties.

18:41.075 --> 18:42.775
And he said, you know, someone asked him this sort

18:42.775 --> 18:44.055
of question, like, what's our policy goals?

18:44.055 --> 18:45.895
Would you propose? And he said, it's not my job to tell you

18:45.895 --> 18:49.455
what sauce we are to be eaten, in which it was a, it's like,

18:49.475 --> 18:51.015
it is a very common expression in French.

18:51.115 --> 18:53.095
I'm a French English translator mostly.

18:53.895 --> 18:55.995
And in French, it means, you know, it come,

18:55.995 --> 18:58.715
comes from an older expression, which is, it does not matter

18:58.715 --> 19:00.835
to the duck what sauce is to be eaten in.

19:00.945 --> 19:04.355
Meaning, you know, it's, it is, as soon as I tell you

19:04.355 --> 19:06.275
what we should do, it's a recipe

19:06.495 --> 19:08.195
for disaster and it's on meat.

19:08.375 --> 19:11.505
You know what I mean? So we gotta do something.

19:11.725 --> 19:12.785
But all I can tell you is

19:12.785 --> 19:15.505
that this is a detailed on the ground cross section

19:15.525 --> 19:17.505
of Rikers in the very recent history.

19:18.005 --> 19:19.905
Uh, and this is what it looks like.

19:20.015 --> 19:23.385
This is what you do to people when you send them,

19:23.405 --> 19:24.865
to short term incarceration.

19:25.685 --> 19:29.065
Uh, if we accept that incarceration is observed

19:29.065 --> 19:32.795
and doesn't work, then I think city time is probably the

19:32.905 --> 19:36.635
best example of why it is observed and doesn't work.

19:36.875 --> 19:38.995
I mean, these people are not dangerous, right?

19:38.995 --> 19:42.435
They're due to be released to society in a matter of days,

19:43.025 --> 19:44.475
maximum months.

19:44.975 --> 19:47.515
So clearly they don't need to be separated from people

19:47.515 --> 19:49.795
because they're violent psychopaths or something, right?

19:50.655 --> 19:53.475
If they are not being corrected,

19:54.465 --> 19:55.635
what is this supposed to do?

19:55.925 --> 19:57.555
Maybe it has a slight deterrent effect,

19:57.575 --> 20:01.015
but doesn't really seem to, because people keep going back.

20:01.555 --> 20:04.775
And most of the people I met were strung out on drugs,

20:05.045 --> 20:07.895
extremely poor, came from an environment in which,

20:08.695 --> 20:11.575
culturally, the way of dealing with being overpoliced

20:11.575 --> 20:14.015
and over incarcerated was to make it a sort of test

20:14.015 --> 20:15.095
of manhood, right?

20:15.595 --> 20:18.855
Um, like, you know, again, it's not that complicated.

20:18.855 --> 20:21.535
So I don't wanna get into policy stuff in any great detail,

20:21.715 --> 20:24.135
but on the one hand, I don't think you really have to.

20:24.645 --> 20:27.335
It's, you know, just a, a lack of political will

20:27.335 --> 20:27.695
to implement.

00:00 - I wrote this book in large part to, make sense of and produce something useful from the experience of being incarcerated on Rikers Island. I wrote it in conjunction, with my friend Jared Shanahan, who also served time on Rikers Island a

00:13 - few years before myself. And, it, it just kind of fell into place kind of naturally at the outset, me kind of approaching the experience of incarceration as a participant observer, was a coping mechanism. So Rikers is, is an island in the East River in New York City. it's sandwiched between the Bronx and Queens. and on this island there are a number of jail facilities.

00:37 - So the island is only for incarcerating people. it's accessible via one single bridge from Queens. And it is, it has been for, a long time, New York City's, primary, jail site. So there are other jails throughout, New York City. You want more information on sort of the history of the New York City jail system. You can read, Jared Shanahan's book, captives, which focuses mainly on Rikers, but not only, and Rikers is really well known

01:04 - because it's, it's, you know, a s******e, I don't know what other term to use. yeah. it's, it's, it's very dirty. It's very violent. it's, it's kind of, almost the rite of passage for a lot of working class young men of color in New York, because they're overpoliced and over incarcerated. And, you know, like a lot of working class New Yorkers will just refer to it as the island, even though it's a city, you know,

01:32 - with a bunch of islands, because we all know which one we're talking about. Right. it's, it's, it's kind of a part of, of the, of the folk knowledge of, of New York. You know, it's, it's this place you don't want to go, and it's always just kind of hanging out there in the, in the East River. I was arrested in the anti-fascist protest, and I was made an example of by, by the prosecutor that we don't have to get into details on that,

01:57 - but that's, that's the long and short of it. when I went away, I mean, it was so absurd to me, because the plea deals that we were getting were so, disproportionate. because the length of time, I mean, serving time in the first place was so absurd, in relation to what had actually happened, that it was hard for me to wrap my brain around. I mean, you know,

02:24 - but again, it's one of those things, it's like, I've never had to deal with that because I come from a, a privileged, background. You know, I grew up like upper middle class. I'm a white guy from the suburbs. I have a college degree. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm not a native New Yorker. and that's just stuff that like is, is so far removed from the realm of possibility for me at this point in my life, right? When I get arrested, when I'm facing time,

02:45 - that it's almost unthinkable, right? Whereas for working class men of color, especially in New York, it's like, well, this is a, a reality. And again, almost the rite of passage, right? So for me, it was something that I had to go through all the stages of grief, And I was in denial about it, and then I had to accept it. And once I accepted the absurdity of it and accepted that this is an absurd reality

03:07 - that is absurdly visited upon vast numbers of working class men day in and day out, there's this certain like, okay, this realization that people deal with this, right? And they deal with this by accepting it as a fact of life. And, there are certain things that are going to be very physically difficult in terms of comfort level, socially difficult and psychologically difficult in terms of orienting yourself.

03:31 - But at the end of the day, a lot of what's difficult about it is the fact that you're supposed to feel bad that it's a socially stigmatized experience, right? And not a socially valorized experience, like other forms of isolation. So people who go and to an Antarctic research center or like a submarine or the the International Space Station are going through something uncomfortable and isolating,

03:53 - but it's for a useful end, and it's socially valorizes, right? So I started to think about it in that kind of context. Think about it in the context of this is something that people have found ways to cope with. And then lastly, the, the thing that I think will link this to maybe our next question is, I was encouraged to approach it as, ethnographic research by a member of my defense committee. Defense committees are a, a, a long running,

04:18 - tradition in the sort of radical left, anti repression, milieu. So you have people that come together and help someone who's facing or preparing to do jail or prison time. And one of the members of my defense committee had trained as an anthropologist. I think he conducted research among the Roma in Eastern Europe. But anyway, he, you know, he,

04:36 - he kind of gave me the, the rundown. He gave me the basics of ethnography. He said, this is, a really rare glimpse into, a, a, a world that is very much under reported on. So try and approach it that way, and it'll help you, maybe deal with it too, because it'll be less, less personal. You have a little remove the, the day-to-day research was like me, you know, waking up living my life,

05:01 - and when other people talked about things, which, you know, I served my whole 12 months in a, in a, a dorm, you know, in different dorms. So there's always noise, there's always talk, there's always chatter. people talked about things that are interesting or people have interactions that you, you think, well, maybe there's something to that. Maybe that speaks to some reality, some social reality, that isn't evident to me, right?

05:21 - But is evident to that. and, and I would just note these things down, right? And, you know, I'm not trying to like dupe anyone into giving me information. You know, I'm not trying to guide the conversation more than out of curiosity, you know what I mean? I'm just living this reality and journaling like, you know, a lot of people do, because it's a great way for you to, to cope with the day-to-Day reality, sort of the structure.

05:46 - And, and, and the process for my journaling was trying to be a participant observer. And so along certain axes rights, like, you know, how people understand, their relation to the institution when a lot of the staff come from the same neighborhoods as them, how, how things like race masculinity, violence, you know, sharing resources, how, how, how those sorts of things function, right? City time is a term, that is proper

06:13 - to Rikers, to our understanding. And it speaks to serving a short sentence in a jail, in, in specifically the city jail of Rikers Island, rather than serving time in state or federal prison, which is much different, culturally in terms of the infrastructure, in terms of the resources that you have access to and different from, being in pretrial detention in a local jail, like a city jail, county jail, whatever. Those are very different experiences, psychologically,

06:44 - for the person undergoing that experience. if you are detained pretrial, you may be charged with a very serious crime, and you may be with other people who are facing, lots of time, I mean, years or decades, right? There will probably be people mixed in there who are just parole violators serving a couple months. you know, you might be, have someone in for jumping a turnstile or graffiti or something depending on the jurisdiction, right?

07:09 - Kind of depends how the law works where you are. But there will be people in there who are facing serious time, and maybe they know that they're on camera doing it. So they're probably already more mentally invested in the, the jail and prison system than they are focused on their future in the outside world. If you're in a state prison, there's also that, that sort of like, well, there's a culture here, there's a code here because we're here for a little while.

07:31 - And that could be a couple years, which is not that long of the big picture, but still, there's the sense of prison is the big leagues. Jail is the minor leagues. And in pretrial detention, which is 90% of the people in jail, it's very hectic because no one knows when they're getting out. Everybody's got a court date coming up. It's so, mentally, taxing just to not know.

07:53 - And when you're doing city time, you're serving 16 months maximum six sentences that, that long are very rare. You know, I was sentenced to 18 months. I was serving 12 with time produced for good behavior. That was rare. I mean, people call me a lifer sometimes, you know, because by city time standards, that's rare. some people are serving as little as 10 days. Some people are serving a few weeks, a few months. So you see kind of what I'm getting at.

08:17 - You can imagine if you put yourself in that position, right, you've gotta do some jail time. Now, you go some, some time behind bars. You, you could do it in a prison where there's more of a code. There's, maybe more violence, but there's kind of more respect, for, other people. And in New York State prisons, at least, there are more amenities. there are more things to help you pass the time.

08:38 - and on the other hand, pretrial detention, it's just so hectic. People are coming and going every day, and a lot of them are facing serious time, seriously stressed out. 'cause the future's so uncertain. And in the middle, a very small portion of the under, of the incarcerated population, you have city time, which is short sentences served in jail facilities. You know, one of the things you talk about in the book is

08:59 - that the, the bulk of the work of running the facility as like a structured world that's, you know, very difficult to live in, but has some logic to it, is done by the prisoners. you know, they, they create a society, they make do with what they have, which is not much. And yeah, it's often based on violence. but, you know, I mean, it's not so different from the society at large. It's just a little more, evident, right?

09:29 - what they do is they find ways to make sense of the time that kind of weighs on you. I mean, there's a lot of writing about how time, you know, like classic Irving Goffman talked about how in total institutions, it's like, it's just almost impossible not to feel the time, moving slowly past you, right? And then people who are incarcerated, they feel like this time has been stolen from them, right? It's like dead time

09:55 - and you just can't wait for it to finish, which makes it go so much slower. So it's all about finding ways to structure your day, structure your social world, so that you can pass this time, right? And that could mean, you know, cooking communal meals together in the evening. That could mean having a good workout routine. For me, it was, exercise is part of it, but also reading, writing, translating,

10:16 - those are the things I built my day around going to work. you know, sanitation is really important, and that includes personal hygiene. You know, personal hygiene is part of collective sanitation. In there. People will let you know if you smell bad and you need to buy some deodorant at commissary or it's gonna be a problem. people will let you know if, when you are using the toilet, it smells bad and you need to flush multiple times.

10:40 - It's expected when you go to the toilet. Otherwise, it's gonna be a problem because we're all living here, you know, we have to share odors. And there's, so there, there, there are these rules that are, you know, even to the, the level of what toilets you can urinate in and what toilets you can defecate in. All that's regulated by the prisoners. And they will just write a little sign on a piece of paper,

11:01 - put on the wall with the toothpaste, and let you know, don't pee in these toilets. Don't poop in these toilets. You know, like, easy. but so, so when we talk about structuring reality and structuring time to, to give it some sense in some way, that's the kind of stuff what, I mean, it extends to every facet of life. I mean, the phones, for example, one of examples we've give in the book, from a co couple of different perspectives.

11:24 - You know, I lived in a dorm, a dorm, the first dorm that I lived in where, it was expected that you would brush your teeth and wash your hands before you got on the phone. And it could be, it could be an issue for you if you did, and there was a sign to that effect posted, on the wall by the phones, the, the staff, you have to go through them to, to get anything you want, right? So that's, it's hygiene products like toilet paper and toothpaste.

11:45 - you know, you gotta visit, well, you, you gotta have a staff escort walk you down to the visit floor. You need to go to the clinic. You know, you have to have a, a staff member, particular staff are, are obviously in control of the situation in terms of they're the ones who hold the keys, right? They're, they're, they're there in, in, they're there because they have regular jobs or what, what they call regular jobs.

12:04 - right? And, and you're there because you broke the law, and you need to be corrected, right? And so, obviously the structure of the day, right? When the lights come on, when the day room closes and you have to leave the day room so they can do a count and make sure no one's tried to escape or whatever. all of those things right, are coming from the staff. But when it comes to actually like helping you make sense of the world that you're in, that it's completely hands off.

12:33 - I mean, there's an anecdote we mentioned in the book. There was, an alarm, I think in my first week or two. And, you know, I, I think I had a visit, or I was trying to go to the mail room or something, and I asked the, the CEO if I could go, you know, the, the guard if I could, if I could go. And she said, there's an alarm right now. I was like, what's an alarm? You know? And to explain that, it means that there was an incident.

12:55 - And so they locked the building down. It's a lockdown, right? So there was a fight in the hallway or something, so nobody's moving anywhere, right? All the, all the gates are staying closed until they get the issue resolved. And I asked her, what's an alarm? I mean, never been to jail before. I have no idea. She just goes, ask your fellow inmates, sir. You know, like, ask your fellow inmates, they'll explain it to you.

13:11 - And they did. You know, again, that extends to really every level of daily life under city time. It's the inmates that you can rely on to help you, even though you have to go through the staff to get everything done. They're not reliable in the way that inmates are. That doesn't mean we're all friends, we're all buddy buddy. But there's a resource there, right? That most people will tap into, first, right? And in some cases, you can only get certain things

13:38 - through the inmates, like the shower head. We talk about different types of folk knowledge affordances who use the term affordances to talk about physical ways of modifying, modifying your environment to make it more comfortable. Shower heads, water shoots out in a really uncomfortable way in some of the dorms. So some of the guys find a way to cut open a plastic shampoo bottle and tape it on there. Now, keep in mind, tape is illegal, right?

13:59 - Knives are illegal, right? And so you have, you have to solicit these resources from the people in your housing unit. And you know this, it's an example of one of those things that you can only get from your fellow prisoners. You can't go to Stanford pe People who kind of look and talk like me, generally don't get sentenced to time behind bars because we live in a system in which, what they call justice is meted out, with, with quite a lot of bias.

14:22 - right? So I stood out like a sore thumb in there, and people wanted to know why I was there. You know, it's, it's, it's not at all taboo to ask people, what are you in for? But I got asked that a lot, especially when I started, you know, after a while, word kind of got around. and that was actually very helpful for me. you know, you have to have kind of like a, a six second version of your story, right?

14:44 - You cannot get into, and, and I think it's too complicated, and I think it's longer than like 10 seconds as to why you're there is suspicious. People don't wanna hear that. Yeah. And so, you know, mine was, I beat up a Trump supporter. Now that is a gross oversimplification, but, you know, not too far from, from, from the truth. And that resonated with people, people who go into Rikers in general. You know, I, I can only speak from what I observed, right?

15:08 - Can't speak from firsthand experience. well, what I observed and the research that I've done since I've been released, since I was released, a lot of people going into Rikers, have some sense of what it's like because they've heard about it from friends and family. again, because they come from impoverished, over policed over incarcerated neighborhoods. My brother and my dad, my uncle, whatever, and people who say, you know,

15:30 - my grandfather was in Rikers. It's like, you know, thi this is not like, again, it's the opposite of unthinkable for them. It's a very real reality. And even though it sucks on some level, it's also an opportunity to prove yourself. you know, and so, these people are coming in with a sense of what it's like. a lot of them know people from the street in there, because New York's a big city.

15:51 - But at the end of the day, you know, even a big city exists in a small world. You know, if I could say it like that, that you, you might run into, I ran into people I know, you know, I knew from the street. I mean, sort of locals in the neighborhood that I lived in, in, in Brooklyn. but yeah, people who recognize me from the bodega, whatever gang affiliation is a big, is a big factor for a lot of people.

16:12 - so if, if you have a gang affiliation and you're in greens, which means you're serving city time, you, you wear different, you different color uniforms. If you're in pretrial detention, which again is 90% of the prisoner population, you are wearing a sort of beige outfit. And if you're serving city time, which again is only about 10%, you're wearing forest green. So if you're in greens, and you're in a gang, you're kind of like, not really expected.

16:39 - You, you kind of get a pass, you know, I'm not a gang, but, but, but still, you're gonna group together with your gang. So when I was in Rikers, the authorities were trying to house, gangs together in one housing unit to eliminate conflict between gangs. So you would have a crypto dorm, a blood dorm, a Latin king dorm, et cetera. And so if you're in a gang and they, they know you're in a gang,

17:04 - or you tell 'em you're in a gang, because it could be a problem for you. If you end up in the wrong gang, housing unit, then you're gonna go to the gang housing unit. And if people attack one of the other gang members in the hallway or something in a, in a place where you mix with people from other housing units, and you don't jump to defend your fellow gang member, that could be a problem for you.

17:22 - So that's where thing can kind of shape your experience, right? again, none of these things were issues for me, right? But, conception of what it's like, neighborhood friend and family ties, gang ties, in Rikers and in the upstate prison system, Muslims perform some of the func, self-defense functions of gangs. Interestingly, Muslim inmates, Muslim prisoners will generally defend each other.

17:46 - So religion can play a role. if you're queer, are trans, when I started my sense of Rikers, you were sent to a single housing unit. so sexual identity or gender identity, can play a role in, in what your experience looks like. I'm not in the habit of, of telling people what policy goals we should have for, decarceration and abolition. I think obviously there should be the goals,

18:12 - because incarceration hasn't worked, continues to not work. if it was working, people wouldn't continue to go back to it. And I don't think it's that complicated. Invest in social services, derate. beyond that, I don't really get into policy stuff because it's not my wheelhouse. And as soon as you stick your neck out, you know, you're just looking to get skewed. I mean, it is, you know, an interview that Fuko did,

18:38 - you know, I think in maybe the eighties. And he said, you know, someone asked him this sort of question, like, what's our policy goals? Would you propose? And he said, it's not my job to tell you what sauce we are to be eaten, in which it was a, it's like, it is a very common expression in French. I'm a French English translator mostly. And in French, it means, you know, it come, comes from an older expression, which is, it does not matter to the duck what sauce is to be eaten in.

19:00 - Meaning, you know, it's, it is, as soon as I tell you what we should do, it's a recipe for disaster and it's on meat. You know what I mean? So we gotta do something. But all I can tell you is that this is a detailed on the ground cross section of Rikers in the very recent history. and this is what it looks like. This is what you do to people when you send them, to short term incarceration.

19:25 - if we accept that incarceration is observed and doesn't work, then I think city time is probably the best example of why it is observed and doesn't work. I mean, these people are not dangerous, right? They're due to be released to society in a matter of days, maximum months. So clearly they don't need to be separated from people because they're violent psychopaths or something, right? If they are not being corrected, what is this supposed to do?

19:55 - Maybe it has a slight deterrent effect, but doesn't really seem to, because people keep going back. And most of the people I met were strung out on drugs, extremely poor, came from an environment in which, culturally, the way of dealing with being overpoliced and over incarcerated was to make it a sort of test of manhood, right? like, you know, again, it's not that complicated. So I don't wanna get into policy stuff in any great detail, but on the one hand, I don't think you really have to.

20:24 - It's, you know, just a, a lack of political will to implement.

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