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Research suggests that interviews, unaided by additional methods, may be an ineffective way to explore young people’s experiences with sensitive issues. Constantino Dumangane Jr discusses the methodological approach of incorporating interviews with ‘third objects’ aimed at facilitating conversations with black British university men about the significance of their parents guidance during their formative and adolescent years, and their experiences with racism during their higher education studies.

Image courtesy of interviewee. June 19, 2024

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This video discusses the use of "third objects" as a research tool, particularly in studies involving emotional and sensitive topics such as race discrimination and microaggressions experienced by Black students in elite UK universities. The speaker notes that their interest in this topic emerged from observing a lack of diversity in these institutions and wanting to understand the unique experiences of Black African Caribbean students.

Third objects help children and participants deflect attention from personal trauma, allowing them to discuss sensitive issues more openly. The speaker exemplifies this method through a study that involved interviewing 15 Black British students about their experiences of discrimination in universities, employing qualitative methods.

A key finding indicates that Black British students tend to underreport experiences of discrimination when asked directly. However, using third objects—including a humorous YouTube video—allowed participants to reflect on their experiences without feeling victimized, facilitating deeper conversations.

The speaker emphasizes the cultural differences in discussing race and discrimination in the UK versus the US, noting that British students often avoid openly discussing racism. They conclude that third objects are beneficial beyond childhood contexts and suggest that involving participants in choosing their own objects could yield even richer data in future research.

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Third objects are a tool that's, usually used with,

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young children.

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Often children that are, are looked

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after, are in care or things.

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It's, they're often used as, a mechanism to

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help the child deflect or refer to the object,

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and it gives them a level of support, help, et cetera.

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A colleague of mine, when I was doing,

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my research suggested that they might be useful, with,

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black young people in higher education.

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And I actually thought the idea was a, quite,

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quite deft at the time,

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but it turned out to be quite useful.

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And one of the reasons that third objects can be a useful

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tool is that,

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they're beneficial when talking about emotional sensitive,

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types of issues, which was

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what my research was focused on.

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Issues of race discrimination, microaggressions, experiences

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of British, African Caribbean students

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who attended elite universities in the uk.

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I would suggest that elite universities in the uk,

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those are the Russell Group universities,

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for all intensive purposes are similar to,

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the Ivy League institutions in, in the us.

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And my, in my interest in doing this research was that,

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I observed, when I was doing my PhD at a Russell group

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that there weren't any people of color

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in the institutions.

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Where were they? And I was curious about

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what was going on coming from a much more,

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diverse mixed environment in Washington DC

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and coming to the UK was a bit of a shocker.

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And when I did see, British African,

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Caribbean students, I wanted to understand what was it about

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that was unique about them, that it helped them to get to

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and to get through these elite, universities.

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Um, and, I was,

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interested in using an intersectional approach,

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which is looking at issues of their, race,

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their gender, and their class.

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Were they working class, were the middle class,

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were there particular issues that,

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or factors capitals, the Bordeaux's term capitals

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that were important

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or valuable in helping them to not just access,

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but be successful students?

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And why, what was it about that that helped them?

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Because at the time I did this research,

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British African Caribbean males were one of the least

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represented students in these elite institutions.

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Black students in general are a large representative,

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group of students, but most

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of them are located in the post 1992 institutions,

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and that's not negating the education

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of those institutions. I just

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Wanted to understand why there are

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so few others have also criticized my,

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the research I did here,

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but why didn't you look at black African, Caribbean women?

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And the argument was

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that black African Caribbean women were more represented.

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They often attended these institutions later in life.

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Um, so they were maybe mature students like myself,

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but they were more represented there.

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And one key thing I'd also want to emphasize is

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that the students that I was interested in, in review,

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researching were home domiciled British students.

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I'm not talking international students

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because these were the ones that were most likely not

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to be represented in those schools, black British,

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or as I will call for the rest of this interview, black.

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My methodology was that I, used, qualitative methods

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because,

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qualitative methods are a useful tool when you're used doing

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a small research study.

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This was, I, interviewed 15 black,

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British students across 10 elite universities.

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And it's small, primarily

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because there were,

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they just weren't there in a lot of cases.

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And one Oxbridge institution, I secured the,

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the first black student to be accepted in

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that institution in that particular college in nine years.

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So it was also very important that I make sure that all

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of my participants, information was anonymized

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and pseudonyms were used for their names

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and for locations that, they presented within,

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the research study because I didn't want any type of harm

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or anything to come from them to them afterwards.

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A semi-structured interview, style was used for them,

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and it's what I called counter narratives, not narratives.

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And the reason they're counter narratives is they're the

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stories of the others, the stories of those

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who are less represented in the journals in the,

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in the research and what you hear in society usually.

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So hence that's why the, so lazano,

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and Delgado term of counter errors is a, is what,

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I used termed the method I used to conduct my,

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my, my interviews.

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I think to tell what comes came out of those interviews,

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I need to put it go back a step.

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I had previously conducted research

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with black men about their exp experiences in

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secondary education.

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I wanted to know about issues of exclusion, discrimination,

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microaggressions being possibly,

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to be set in the lower tiers in,

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in their secondary education, et cetera.

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But when I conducted those interviews,

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I did have semi semi-structured interviews,

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but I, I asked very direct questions,

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have you experienced any discrimination?

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Have you, been, experienced

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A microaggression

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or any types of, you know, verbal assaults or whatever?

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And always the response was a, a very definitive, no,

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I don't know what you're talking about.

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Often I was told we don't have those types

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of discriminatory issues in the UK like you have in the us.

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Now, the reason for the challenge that I was having here was

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that I was, failing to realize the psychology

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behind the issue of victimization.

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If someone asks you if you have, you know,

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been discriminated against or, or assaulted and verbally

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or something in some way, you, you want

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to avoid being the victim.

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And this is where the third objects came into play.

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By using a third object, by using things,

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that were not physically part of the person,

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I was a lot able to enable the individual to deflect,

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to remove themselves from the situation.

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And, and it enables me to get a lot more research deep,

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data about, experiences of sensitive

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and emotional issues of racism, discrimination,

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microaggressions, et cetera.

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Third objects are also things are things such

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as video snippets, so YouTube, videos, they can be,

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you know, a picture, it can be an object such

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as cuff links, et cetera.

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When I wanted to, I started out with things that were like,

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icebreakers

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and I moved on to more challenging issues, et cetera.

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But I particularly used a two minute video called S**t White

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Girls Say to Black Girls, which is on YouTube,

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and it's had over 12 million hits.

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It's 12 years old now, but it still is quite useful

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and salient for what I wanted to do.

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The, the reason I chose this third object is

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that it was a black woman parroting a white woman,

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and she's wearing a blonde wig.

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She is talking about the types of questions

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that white women have asked her about her hair,

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or do you know this person named Tyrone because he's black

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and because he's black

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and you should know him kinds of situations.

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What was particularly useful about using the this type

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of third object is that one, the, the video was American.

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It was about, black woman parodying a white woman,

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and all of my research participants were black British, so

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they could rem they were removed from the situation,

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and when they looked at it, at first they were laughing,

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and then they got quite serious

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and were able to share, well, you know,

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I've had this experience where X, Y, Z happened to me

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regarding discrimination,

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or when I, in my first year,

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a student asked me if I'd ever killed anyone or if I'd ever

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Stabbed anyone, et cetera.

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I wouldn't, I did not get this type of rich data

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with generalized, semi, structured questions that asked,

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have you ever been discriminated against?

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By removing the issue to something that was not close

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to them, it prevented them from feeling like a victim,

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and yet they were very comfortable then expressing

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and sharing their stories of microaggressions,

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discrimination, offense, et cetera.

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I think one of the key things was, you,

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the video this parody, it, it was something that was funny,

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but it's actually not funny in the end.

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And I think that is one of the things that made, helped

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to go beyond breaking the ice

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and make the participants comfortable.

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At first, they looked at it about, it's a joke.

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This isn't about me. This is a black person

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that's a American, they're making a joke about a bl a white

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American who's asking questions.

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But then it seemed to be caused, caused some kind

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of psychological transition where they said, wait a minute,

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this is really actually quite relatable,

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and I've had these types of experiences.

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One of the key things that I will say is there is a very big

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difference between UK

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and US when you're talking about issues of discrimination.

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Um, black African Americans are more likely

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to be very direct and,

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and, confrontational about ex expressing to you.

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Yes, I've had ex discriminatory, experiences.

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Most of my participants wouldn't even use the

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word discrimination.

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The word discrimination, that them had to often refer

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to something that was a very serious, harsh

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physical assault.

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But it's clear from the stories, if you counter narratives,

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if you just look at the data

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that these were clearly experiences of racism,

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discrimination, and microaggressions.

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But the reality is

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that there are different cultural things within the British

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community and the British culture and the UK

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and the US culture, and one of them is we don't really like

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to talk about the elephant in the room.

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Whereas in the US it's very blatant.

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If I'd asked, I wouldn't necessarily have needed

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third objects to conduct this data in the us

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and I've seen work from, other people like Sean Harper,

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professor Harper,

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who's done research on these in this area,

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and it's,

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it's this pe black African Caribbean males are much more

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black Americans are more comfortable

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discussing these things.

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Um, I would suggest one of the ones that,

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I touch on that surprised me the most was,

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regarding, a student who,

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and I don't know if I, yeah, I do think this one,

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I don't know if this one is actually in the, in the article,

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if it made a, if it made the cut, but

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It was, was, a student in a,

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a mathematics,

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or a science course asked, to,

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deliver, the, the lectures at the front of this,

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this large room and was asking, the person what

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the formula was for X plus Y plus zed equals what have you.

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And, the student raised his hand to explain,

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and the lecturer asked him in a room of like 300 people

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if he could wrap it like tiny temper, which is a,

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a, a black, rap artist in the UK

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and just the uncomfortability, the of offense

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of it, et cetera.

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And this student shared that at the same time when I asked

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that student, did they do anything about it,

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did they challenge the, the, the lecture or anything?

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They said, no, because the power dynamics, et cetera,

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and they were just trying to get their degree.

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Now, mind you, the professor,

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the lecturer realized afterwards the errors of their way

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and try did everything they could profusely to apologize

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to the student, but the damage was already done in front

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of a room of 300, you know, students.

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One of my conclusions is that third objects are a useful,

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tool, not just for children, not

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but for when you're trying to delve deeper into issues the,

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that can be sensitive

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or emotive emotional, personal in nature, regardless

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of if, if their race, they could be about gender issues.

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It could be about L-G-B-T-Q, x, y, z,

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uncomfort abilities

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or, levels of discrimination or mistreatment,

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because they allow the researcher

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and the research to have a conversation that is not

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directed right as the, at the individual as a victim,

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or, instead that's deflected

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and it can open up the doors to some quite rich data.

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I would argue that, you,

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I I used an intersectional critical race theory lens, which,

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you know, recognizes race

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and racism as being socially constructed,

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but very institutionalized things that are I import

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that are, lived experiences for of black, African

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and Caribbean, students in general.

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My research now looks at both male

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and females, of black, African, Caribbean,

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and Muslim descent in education and higher education,

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and I continue to use third objects in my work.

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I have learned one thing though, of an error in,

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I won't say an error, but possible misjudgment

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and how I conducted this research.

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I, I selected the objects that I presented

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to my participants, whether they have been the cuff links

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or the video or et cetera.

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I were I to conduct this research.

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Again, I would do a mixture of the two

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because it provides agency to my participants.

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And it's not just about me trying to find out what I want

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to find out by allowing or engaging

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and enabling my participants to bring an object that is

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of importance or significance to them, to the table

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and asking them to talk about

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that I might get even richer data.

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I could have failed to get any

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of this information when I chose cufflinks,

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and I thought they would be a useful tool to ask my parents,

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my students to, you know, choose select one

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to talk about their parents.

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However, what if these students

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didn't know what a cufflink was?

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I'm considerably older than them,

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and it could have, it could have gone, you know, flat

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as a one egg pudding instead.

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I was fortunate, but in the future,

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and currently when I conduct research with third objects,

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I bring some objects to, to the, to the table for the,

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interviews and,

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but I also ask them to bring some of their own.

00:00 - Third objects are a tool that's, usually used with, young children. Often children that are, are looked after, are in care or things. It's, they're often used as, a mechanism to help the child deflect or refer to the object,

00:20 - and it gives them a level of support, help, et cetera. A colleague of mine, when I was doing, my research suggested that they might be useful, with, black young people in higher education. And I actually thought the idea was a, quite, quite deft at the time, but it turned out to be quite useful. And one of the reasons that third objects can be a useful tool is that, they're beneficial when talking about emotional sensitive,

00:51 - types of issues, which was what my research was focused on. Issues of race discrimination, microaggressions, experiences of British, African Caribbean students who attended elite universities in the uk. I would suggest that elite universities in the uk, those are the Russell Group universities, for all intensive purposes are similar to, the Ivy League institutions in, in the us. And my, in my interest in doing this research was that,

01:24 - I observed, when I was doing my PhD at a Russell group that there weren't any people of color in the institutions. Where were they? And I was curious about what was going on coming from a much more, diverse mixed environment in Washington DC and coming to the UK was a bit of a shocker. And when I did see, British African, Caribbean students, I wanted to understand what was it about that was unique about them, that it helped them to get to

01:59 - and to get through these elite, universities. and, I was, interested in using an intersectional approach, which is looking at issues of their, race, their gender, and their class. Were they working class, were the middle class, were there particular issues that, or factors capitals, the Bordeaux's term capitals that were important or valuable in helping them to not just access,

02:29 - but be successful students? And why, what was it about that that helped them? Because at the time I did this research, British African Caribbean males were one of the least represented students in these elite institutions. Black students in general are a large representative, group of students, but most of them are located in the post 1992 institutions, and that's not negating the education of those institutions. I just

02:58 - Wanted to understand why there are so few others have also criticized my, the research I did here, but why didn't you look at black African, Caribbean women? And the argument was that black African Caribbean women were more represented. They often attended these institutions later in life. so they were maybe mature students like myself, but they were more represented there. And one key thing I'd also want to emphasize is

03:26 - that the students that I was interested in, in review, researching were home domiciled British students. I'm not talking international students because these were the ones that were most likely not to be represented in those schools, black British, or as I will call for the rest of this interview, black. My methodology was that I, used, qualitative methods because, qualitative methods are a useful tool when you're used doing a small research study.

03:59 - This was, I, interviewed 15 black, British students across 10 elite universities. And it's small, primarily because there were, they just weren't there in a lot of cases. And one Oxbridge institution, I secured the, the first black student to be accepted in that institution in that particular college in nine years. So it was also very important that I make sure that all of my participants, information was anonymized

04:30 - and pseudonyms were used for their names and for locations that, they presented within, the research study because I didn't want any type of harm or anything to come from them to them afterwards. A semi-structured interview, style was used for them, and it's what I called counter narratives, not narratives. And the reason they're counter narratives is they're the stories of the others, the stories of those who are less represented in the journals in the, in the research and what you hear in society usually.

05:04 - So hence that's why the, so lazano, and Delgado term of counter errors is a, is what, I used termed the method I used to conduct my, my, my interviews. I think to tell what comes came out of those interviews, I need to put it go back a step. I had previously conducted research with black men about their exp experiences in secondary education. I wanted to know about issues of exclusion, discrimination,

05:36 - microaggressions being possibly, to be set in the lower tiers in, in their secondary education, et cetera. But when I conducted those interviews, I did have semi semi-structured interviews, but I, I asked very direct questions, have you experienced any discrimination? Have you, been, experienced A microaggression or any types of, you know, verbal assaults or whatever?

06:03 - And always the response was a, a very definitive, no, I don't know what you're talking about. Often I was told we don't have those types of discriminatory issues in the UK like you have in the us. Now, the reason for the challenge that I was having here was that I was, failing to realize the psychology behind the issue of victimization. If someone asks you if you have, you know, been discriminated against or, or assaulted and verbally or something in some way, you, you want

06:36 - to avoid being the victim. And this is where the third objects came into play. By using a third object, by using things, that were not physically part of the person, I was a lot able to enable the individual to deflect, to remove themselves from the situation. And, and it enables me to get a lot more research deep, data about, experiences of sensitive and emotional issues of racism, discrimination, microaggressions, et cetera.

07:10 - Third objects are also things are things such as video snippets, so YouTube, videos, they can be, you know, a picture, it can be an object such as cuff links, et cetera. When I wanted to, I started out with things that were like, icebreakers and I moved on to more challenging issues, et cetera. But I particularly used a two minute video called S**t White Girls Say to Black Girls, which is on YouTube, and it's had over 12 million hits.

07:39 - It's 12 years old now, but it still is quite useful and salient for what I wanted to do. The, the reason I chose this third object is that it was a black woman parroting a white woman, and she's wearing a blonde wig. She is talking about the types of questions that white women have asked her about her hair, or do you know this person named Tyrone because he's black and because he's black and you should know him kinds of situations.

08:12 - What was particularly useful about using the this type of third object is that one, the, the video was American. It was about, black woman parodying a white woman, and all of my research participants were black British, so they could rem they were removed from the situation, and when they looked at it, at first they were laughing, and then they got quite serious and were able to share, well, you know, I've had this experience where X, Y, Z happened to me regarding discrimination,

08:49 - or when I, in my first year, a student asked me if I'd ever killed anyone or if I'd ever Stabbed anyone, et cetera. I wouldn't, I did not get this type of rich data with generalized, semi, structured questions that asked, have you ever been discriminated against? By removing the issue to something that was not close to them, it prevented them from feeling like a victim, and yet they were very comfortable then expressing and sharing their stories of microaggressions,

09:20 - discrimination, offense, et cetera. I think one of the key things was, you, the video this parody, it, it was something that was funny, but it's actually not funny in the end. And I think that is one of the things that made, helped to go beyond breaking the ice and make the participants comfortable. At first, they looked at it about, it's a joke. This isn't about me. This is a black person that's a American, they're making a joke about a bl a white

09:50 - American who's asking questions. But then it seemed to be caused, caused some kind of psychological transition where they said, wait a minute, this is really actually quite relatable, and I've had these types of experiences. One of the key things that I will say is there is a very big difference between UK and US when you're talking about issues of discrimination. black African Americans are more likely to be very direct and,

10:20 - and, confrontational about ex expressing to you. Yes, I've had ex discriminatory, experiences. Most of my participants wouldn't even use the word discrimination. The word discrimination, that them had to often refer to something that was a very serious, harsh physical assault. But it's clear from the stories, if you counter narratives, if you just look at the data that these were clearly experiences of racism,

10:49 - discrimination, and microaggressions. But the reality is that there are different cultural things within the British community and the British culture and the UK and the US culture, and one of them is we don't really like to talk about the elephant in the room. Whereas in the US it's very blatant. If I'd asked, I wouldn't necessarily have needed third objects to conduct this data in the us and I've seen work from, other people like Sean Harper,

11:18 - professor Harper, who's done research on these in this area, and it's, it's this pe black African Caribbean males are much more black Americans are more comfortable discussing these things. I would suggest one of the ones that, I touch on that surprised me the most was, regarding, a student who, and I don't know if I, yeah, I do think this one,

11:48 - I don't know if this one is actually in the, in the article, if it made a, if it made the cut, but It was, was, a student in a, a mathematics, or a science course asked, to, deliver, the, the lectures at the front of this, this large room and was asking, the person what the formula was for X plus Y plus zed equals what have you. And, the student raised his hand to explain, and the lecturer asked him in a room of like 300 people

12:24 - if he could wrap it like tiny temper, which is a, a, a black, rap artist in the UK and just the uncomfortability, the of offense of it, et cetera. And this student shared that at the same time when I asked that student, did they do anything about it, did they challenge the, the, the lecture or anything? They said, no, because the power dynamics, et cetera, and they were just trying to get their degree. Now, mind you, the professor,

12:55 - the lecturer realized afterwards the errors of their way and try did everything they could profusely to apologize to the student, but the damage was already done in front of a room of 300, you know, students. One of my conclusions is that third objects are a useful, tool, not just for children, not but for when you're trying to delve deeper into issues the, that can be sensitive or emotive emotional, personal in nature, regardless of if, if their race, they could be about gender issues.

13:33 - It could be about L-G-B-T-Q, x, y, z, uncomfort abilities or, levels of discrimination or mistreatment, because they allow the researcher and the research to have a conversation that is not directed right as the, at the individual as a victim, or, instead that's deflected and it can open up the doors to some quite rich data. I would argue that, you, I I used an intersectional critical race theory lens, which,

14:11 - you know, recognizes race and racism as being socially constructed, but very institutionalized things that are I import that are, lived experiences for of black, African and Caribbean, students in general. My research now looks at both male and females, of black, African, Caribbean, and Muslim descent in education and higher education, and I continue to use third objects in my work. I have learned one thing though, of an error in,

14:45 - I won't say an error, but possible misjudgment and how I conducted this research. I, I selected the objects that I presented to my participants, whether they have been the cuff links or the video or et cetera. I were I to conduct this research. Again, I would do a mixture of the two because it provides agency to my participants. And it's not just about me trying to find out what I want to find out by allowing or engaging

15:14 - and enabling my participants to bring an object that is of importance or significance to them, to the table and asking them to talk about that I might get even richer data. I could have failed to get any of this information when I chose cufflinks, and I thought they would be a useful tool to ask my parents, my students to, you know, choose select one to talk about their parents. However, what if these students

15:39 - didn't know what a cufflink was? I'm considerably older than them, and it could have, it could have gone, you know, flat as a one egg pudding instead. I was fortunate, but in the future, and currently when I conduct research with third objects, I bring some objects to, to the, to the table for the, interviews and, but I also ask them to bring some of their own.

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