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Denied: Women, Sports, and the Contradictions of Identity

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Women’s college basketball, a big business generating millions in revenue. In Denied, Michelle J. Manno reveals the pressures women athletes face.

Image courtesy of interviewee. December 4, 2023

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The speaker discusses their motivation for writing a book on women's athletics, which stems from a lifelong curiosity about how larger social structures—such as race, gender, and sexuality—shape the experiences of female athletes. They approach the topic from an intersectional perspective, emphasizing the need for a comprehensive understanding of how these factors influence women's participation in sports, especially given that many sporting institutions were not designed with women's needs in mind.

Through ethnographic research, the speaker immersed themselves in the lives of female athletes to observe how structural inequalities manifest in everyday scenarios, rather than relying solely on interviews. They reflect on their own experience as a collegiate athlete and note how it impacts their analysis of current athletes, discovering that many challenges are still present today.

The discussion highlights the tension female athletes face between athleticism and societal expectations of femininity. Examples of well-known athletes like Serena Williams, Brittany Griner, Gabby Douglas, and Caster Semenya illustrate the unique challenges and criticisms—often rooted in racism and sexism—that they endure. The speaker calls attention to the need for greater inclusivity and understanding within sports, urging readers, including coaches and sports administrators, to recognize the multifaceted identities of athletes and the systemic issues that affect them.

The overarching hope is that readers will develop a nuanced understanding of how identity factors interplay in shaping the experiences of women athletes, especially those at the intersection of race, gender, and sexuality, underscoring the need for change within the sports institution.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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You know, in some ways I feel like I've been writing this

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book since I was eight years old,

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and I was playing basketball for the first time.

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Um, but really the, the big questions that drove me

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to do the research for the book are questions I've been

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curious about for decades, both

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as a collegiate athlete myself,

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and then as a sociologist who became interested in studying

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athletes and studying the institution of sport.

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So I've always been really curious about

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how these larger structures, things like race, gender,

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and sexuality,

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shape the everyday experiences of women athletes.

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So I wanted to understand

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how women's women athletes experiences are unique

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because they're operating within an institution

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that wasn't made with them in mind.

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And I wanted to do something

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that I hadn't seen done in the literature

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before, which was to truly approach the topic from an

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intersectional lens.

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So there's been a lot of work in sports,

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sociology in particular,

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but across the fields that have looked at,

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women athletes navigating gender and even sexuality.

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Um, but there wasn't a lot out there

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that was looking at race, gender,

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and sexuality at the same time.

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And so I was curious what it would look like

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to actually weave all of those things together,

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and to do so through an ethnography, which is also something

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that, I hadn't seen done before.

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And the ethnographic part was important to me

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because I wanted to be able to observe the players,

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not just ask them about, for example,

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how something like gender impacts their lives,

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but to actually be able to observe it in real time.

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I think so much of how these things are operating,

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these large structures like gender, they operate in a way

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that's so deeply ingrained that we almost don't even notice

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that they're impacting us.

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And so if I were to just ask players about them,

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I don't think I'd be able to get the same information.

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So it was really important for me to be able to be,

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in the mix with the players, to be in the locker room,

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to be on the court to, you know, be in their dorm rooms

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with them, which is, which is what I was able

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to do through the ethnography.

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And so through that, I was able to unearth

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a lot more about the intricacies

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and the nuance around the expectations they were navigating.

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Uh, more so than I think I would've if I were just

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interviewing them and asking them about it.

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I think there's a couple things,

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about my own experience.

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So I think because I was a collegiate athlete myself,

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I think first of all, that helped me when it came time

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to actually, being embedded with a team, I was able

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to sort of speak the language.

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I was able to understand that experience

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and talk about it, from my own lived experience.

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So that allowed me an inroad into the space

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that I don't think I would've had otherwise.

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So that was really, really important.

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I think the other thing though is that, it's almost like

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that fish in water metaphor, right?

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When you're so used to an environment,

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there was a little bit of time where I had to try to

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Step back as if I didn't understand

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how the institution worked, to try

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to see it in a new way in order to kind of problematize

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or question the things I was seeing, which for me,

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all felt very normal, right?

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Because I had gone through it myself.

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But to someone from the outside wouldn't.

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So I had to really work quite hard to, I think,

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ask some questions that, again, I wouldn't have

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otherwise asked because it felt so natural.

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You know, I think one of the most interesting things

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and surprising things for me when I did the research

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for this book was that

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although it had been many years since

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I had played college basketball, at that point, the kinds

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of challenges that I was observing the players experiencing

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were the same challenges that I went through as an athlete.

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And I was quite surprised by that.

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Um, so in terms of my own experience, you know, I was sort

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of always feeling like I was balancing, I was sort

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of on this tightrope.

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I wanted to be the best that I could at my sport.

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So I wanted to, to train.

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I particularly loved weightlifting.

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I loved getting, developing muscle mass, for example.

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And then I observed my teammates who were kind

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of shying away from those things.

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They were very hesitant, had a, had a lot of anxiety

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around getting what they thought would be too big.

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Um, and that was always sort of very curious to me.

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Of course, I did understand

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that we were under this pressure always

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to be appropriately feminine so we could be athletic,

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we could be strong, we could be fit,

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but we also had to always keep in mind

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that, you know, we were women.

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And so we were expected to, I think, look

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and behave in ways more aligned with kind

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of common understandings of femininity.

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And that was always something that I understood internally

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as an athlete I observed and my teammates.

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Um, and so then when it came time to do this research,

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you know, that was the primary question

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for me going into this space, was, is this still going on?

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Is this contradiction between being athletic

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and being appropriately feminine, still something

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that athletes are navigating?

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And again, perhaps, you know,

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it shouldn't have been surprising to me,

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but it was that, that in fact, that's still there.

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Of course, every athlete navigates it differently

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and are impacted differently.

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But there was still this tension between

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how can I be athletic and all of what that means

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and be appropriately feminine,

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because the things that we, require of, of athletes,

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toughness, aggression, right?

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Those are characteristics we associate with masculinity.

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And so how do you do that?

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Well, at the same time, balancing,

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the expectations that you will embody,

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characteristics associated with femininity,

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which are opposite of that.

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So these big expectations, you know,

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these are large societal expectations, right?

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They're rooted in long histories of, ideas about gender,

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about sexuality, about race, about body image

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and beauty ideals, right?

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That have been kind of developing over time,

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and they're enduring, right?

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So we certainly have changed.

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Women can and do things now, especially in sports

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that they could never do before.

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And that's really important,

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and we need to pay attention to that.

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At the same time, there are ways in which these expectations

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endure and they continually find ways to pop up, right?

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So again, you can be strong, you can play sports, right?

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It's encouraged,

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but you always have to be mindful

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of this other piece of it as well.

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Um, to your question about the coaches, you know,

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that was something that was really interesting for me too.

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So, you know, there are these large looming expectations

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that we all sort of know exist,

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but there were ways in which the coaches, for this team

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did both explicitly

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and implicitly also project those

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expectations onto the players.

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And the players were also doing that themselves.

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So the players had, they had their coaches,

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they had family members, they had strangers, right?

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They had each other sort

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of always policing them in some way, right?

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Are you really gonna wear your hair like that?

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Are you sure you don't wanna wear this?

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Instead of that, right? Those sorts of explicit questions.

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There's a scene I talk about in the book

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where the star player of the team is coming down

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to the court, ahead of a game, and she's sort of running

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and the wind is blowing, and her hair is, is sort of,

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you know, falling a little bit out, out of her ponytail.

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And she gets down to the court,

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and the coach was so upset that they asked her

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to go back into the locker room to fix her hair so

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that it looked more appropriate

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before she came out to play the game.

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And so that's just an example, right?

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Of this player is, an hour from competition, right?

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She's the best player on the team.

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She should be thinking about one thing and one thing only.

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But here she has her coach coming to remind her

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that actually she should, she should also be thinking about

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what her hair looks like.

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You know, these things matter.

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I mean, sometimes people ask me, so what? Right?

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So you pay a little bit more attention to your hair, so you,

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you know, make sure your legs are shaved, right?

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Like, what's the big deal about it all?

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And you know, in some ways it's true, like these sort

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of things that the athletes are doing

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to navigate this tension, some

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of 'em don't matter, but others do.

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So another example that I talk about in the book is, is

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that, so when there's this tension that's existing,

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athletes use what, what I borrow a phrase from Arley Hawk's

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child, which is gender strategies.

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They use these gender strategies

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to help mediate the tension.

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So it could be things like, I have

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to make sure my hair is done a certain way.

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Maybe I'm putting on makeup before a game, right?

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Maybe I'm covering my tattoos

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because I don't think tattoos look particularly ladylike,

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but there were other players who were doing much more

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impactful things like they were refusing to weight train,

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for example, because they didn't want to gain muscle mass.

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Well, we know that when you're competing in elite level

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college sports, muscle mass makes you stronger,

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makes you faster, right? So there's a direct

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Impact there on what they're allowing themselves to do,

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whether they're allowing themselves

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to fulfill their full potential.

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So I think that's really important.

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I also think that maybe a less thought about impact is that,

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you know, the more mental energy I take, thinking about

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how I look means I have less available, right?

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To be thinking about how am I performing, right?

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So there's all these ways in which these athletes

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are spending time, right?

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They're cognitive, precious, cognitive resources,

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thinking about these things

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that could be used in other ways.

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And I think we can't underestimate how important that is.

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One of the things that was really important

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for me in the book is to tie what I was seeing

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with the athletes that I worked with

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and interviewed to professional athletes to see sort of,

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are these things happening at larger levels?

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And so the, the professional athletes

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that I talk about in the book, I thought were some really,

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great examples of this.

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Um, Serena Williams, of course,

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I think she's probably the most famous of,

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of these athletes.

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And I think most people are likely familiar that, you know,

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throughout her entire career, she faced kind

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of relentless criticism, about her femininity, right?

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Or her lack of femininity.

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She was always too big, too tough, too aggressive,

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wearing outfits that were too tight, right?

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She was too confident always in some way too much, right?

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That was sort of, Serena's experience in the public eye.

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Um, you know, she was regularly referred to as animal-like

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as frightening as unattractive.

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And this is not just from people on social media.

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This is from, newscasters, from,

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from sports commentators, right?

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Um, and so these criticisms, of course, are,

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are rooted in racist

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and sexist tropes of black women's bodies, right?

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As masculine, as animalistic, right?

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Things that, again, have been around a long time.

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And Serena, and of course her sister Venus as well,

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I think experienced,

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really relentless criticism in that way.

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Um, Brittany Griner, you know, similarly, right?

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Brittany Griner is WNBA basketball player,

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has had a tremendous college career,

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has had a tremendous professional career, of course,

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was most recently in the news because of her, detention

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and imprisonment in Russia.

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She too, wa has constantly dealt with sort

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of unending critique of her presentation of gender

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and of her sexuality.

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Uh, she was actually in 2012 awarded best female athlete,

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by the ESPYs.

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And, the reaction on social media to

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that was this onslaught of, of racist

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and heterosexist commentary, questioning her sex,

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mocking her sexuality, similar to Serena,

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calling her things like frightening and manly.

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Um, and you know, I think what's interesting

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with Brittany Griner is

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that her treatment is, is particularly

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Unforgiving because she's challenging these sort

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of dominant notions of what it means to be a woman.

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Um, but because she's doing so as someone who's openly queer

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and because she's doing so as a black woman.

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And so again, race, gender,

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and sexuality are really operating

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all together in that space.

12:09.455 --> 12:10.765
Gabby Douglas,

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Olympic gymnast is somebody I also talk quite a bit about.

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She's been critiqued for all kinds of things.

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Um, she's been critiqued

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for not smiling when her teammate was awarded the gold medal

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instead of her, she was,

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faced a tremendous disparagement, about her hair

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at both the 2012 and the 2016 Olympic Games.

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People were saying that her hair looked crazy,

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and unkempt.

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Um, and you know,

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I think what's particularly interesting about Gabby Douglas,

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I think, unlike Serena

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and Brittany, is that no one was critiquing her

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bodily presentation,

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but people were critiquing her hair,

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which is a deeply racialized, characteristic, right?

12:56.905 --> 13:00.805
So, in our sort of understanding of womanhood

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and hierarchies of, of womanhood,

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white womanhood has always been at the top

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of that hierarchy.

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And that's in large part because of hair.

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So, so this idea that you could be an Olympian,

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but you have to be an Olympian with good hair,

13:15.865 --> 13:19.005
who conforms to these standards of f beauty

13:19.105 --> 13:21.965
and femininity that, were not constructed

13:22.155 --> 13:24.485
with someone like you in mind is is something

13:24.485 --> 13:26.925
that Gabby Douglas has has dealt with.

13:27.545 --> 13:30.725
Lastly, I'll, I'll talk about, castor Samya,

13:31.345 --> 13:33.325
who I think is, is similar in some ways,

13:33.425 --> 13:34.845
but is is different than others.

13:34.905 --> 13:37.165
So, castor Samya, Olympic track

13:37.165 --> 13:38.445
and field runner,

13:38.455 --> 13:40.765
tremendous athlete has actually been banned from

13:40.765 --> 13:42.205
competition,

13:42.205 --> 13:45.365
because her testosterone levels are higher than

13:45.365 --> 13:48.485
what is allowed by, what's now called the,

13:48.615 --> 13:50.925
world Athletics International governing body.

13:51.425 --> 13:55.965
Um, ultimately what led to this process is Castor was

13:55.965 --> 13:57.405
so dominant in her sport

13:57.835 --> 14:01.165
that she had her competitors question her sex.

14:01.865 --> 14:04.765
Um, and that led to a whole process of world athletics,

14:04.765 --> 14:06.965
putting her through what's called a gender verification

14:06.965 --> 14:09.365
process in which they were subjecting her

14:09.385 --> 14:10.605
to hormone treatment.

14:10.905 --> 14:13.845
Um, and then ultimately they adopted new policies

14:14.185 --> 14:17.965
to restrict, women athletes with naturally higher,

14:17.965 --> 14:19.965
than average levels of testosterone.

14:20.705 --> 14:23.765
So if Castro, Sonia had appeared more feminine, right?

14:23.765 --> 14:26.205
If her gender presentation was not as masculine,

14:26.665 --> 14:28.725
she might never have endured this questioning.

14:29.145 --> 14:32.365
Um, but again, the questioning of her sex, was done

14:32.365 --> 14:33.765
through these really archaic

14:33.785 --> 14:37.165
and enduring tropes of black women as unfeminine

14:37.625 --> 14:39.605
of ish and aggressive.

14:39.915 --> 14:42.205
What I think all of these athletes have in common,

14:42.355 --> 14:45.085
even though they're different in some ways, is

14:45.085 --> 14:48.205
that they're experiencing, this unique form

14:48.205 --> 14:50.765
of criticism faced by black women. And this is,

14:50.785 --> 14:53.805
Um, something that Scholar Moya Bailey has talked about

14:53.825 --> 14:57.725
as massage noir, which is this combination of racism

14:58.065 --> 15:02.245
and sexism experienced by black women as a result of their,

15:02.585 --> 15:05.445
existing at the intersection of both racial

15:05.505 --> 15:06.725
and gender marginalization.

15:06.945 --> 15:09.405
And then I think with Castor Sonia

15:09.565 --> 15:12.885
and Brittany Griner, we can add to that sexuality, right?

15:12.985 --> 15:17.365
So their, open queerness, adds another layer

15:17.705 --> 15:19.685
to this, to their situation

15:19.825 --> 15:22.245
and, is a factor in, in

15:22.275 --> 15:23.645
what we've seen of their treatment.

15:23.825 --> 15:24.965
Um, in the public eye.

15:25.665 --> 15:27.405
My hope is that readers will understand

15:27.475 --> 15:31.045
that there's much more to sports than meets the eye.

15:31.665 --> 15:33.965
Um, sports are, are so powerful.

15:33.995 --> 15:36.045
They're so important to so many people,

15:36.265 --> 15:41.205
and there are tremendous benefits, both as a fan,

15:41.265 --> 15:42.885
but also to participating in it.

15:43.265 --> 15:44.805
But it's an institution.

15:45.385 --> 15:49.085
Uh, and like any social institution, it's a place

15:49.085 --> 15:51.245
where inequities can be perpetuated.

15:51.745 --> 15:53.245
And I think it's really important,

15:53.295 --> 15:56.005
especially if you care about sports,

15:56.545 --> 15:58.845
to really think about,

15:59.265 --> 16:02.525
how is this institution serving some athletes better

16:02.525 --> 16:03.685
than others, right?

16:03.785 --> 16:05.685
And what can we do to make some change?

16:06.325 --> 16:08.845
I also hope that readers, maybe those

16:08.865 --> 16:10.325
who have been athletes themselves

16:10.425 --> 16:13.725
or are currently athletes, maybe they'll resonate with some

16:13.725 --> 16:15.005
of the big themes of the book,

16:15.505 --> 16:17.365
and maybe for some they'll have new ways

16:17.425 --> 16:19.685
of understanding their experiences

16:19.905 --> 16:24.365
or thinking about, what, what sports means

16:24.365 --> 16:25.925
to them, in new ways.

16:26.225 --> 16:28.685
Um, after reading the book, I also hope

16:28.715 --> 16:30.165
that if there are coaches

16:30.425 --> 16:32.445
or sports administrators who read the book,

16:32.445 --> 16:34.965
this will be an opportunity for them to really think about

16:35.355 --> 16:38.325
what are the ways that they can make, their program

16:38.505 --> 16:41.005
or their institution more inclusive for all

16:41.005 --> 16:44.085
of their athletes so that athletes can be valued not just

16:44.145 --> 16:45.925
for the athletic talent

16:46.265 --> 16:48.085
and success that they bring to the program,

16:48.545 --> 16:50.485
but as their full authentic selves.

16:51.025 --> 16:53.405
So I really hope that that's something that comes out of it.

16:54.105 --> 16:56.285
But ultimately, my, my big hope is

16:56.285 --> 16:57.725
that people will just come away

16:57.725 --> 17:01.965
with a more nuanced understanding of how things like race,

17:02.185 --> 17:03.445
gender, sexuality,

17:03.625 --> 17:05.885
things we don't often think about when we think about

17:05.885 --> 17:08.525
sports, actually shape the experiences

17:08.525 --> 17:10.565
of athletes in these really complex ways.

17:10.665 --> 17:11.965
And especially women athletes,

17:11.985 --> 17:14.045
and especially black women athletes.

17:14.105 --> 17:16.765
So people who are at the intersections of many

17:16.765 --> 17:18.645
of these identities,

17:19.065 --> 17:21.485
and that, you know, these athletes are

17:22.085 --> 17:23.525
phenomenal in their sport

17:23.785 --> 17:25.645
and they're phenomenal in a lot of other ways,

17:25.785 --> 17:28.805
and they're sort of constantly having to navigate that,

17:28.855 --> 17:31.045
which is, which is a pretty unique challenge.

17:31.565 --> 17:31.685
I.

00:00 - You know, in some ways I feel like I've been writing this book since I was eight years old, and I was playing basketball for the first time. but really the, the big questions that drove me to do the research for the book are questions I've been curious about for decades, both

00:14 - as a collegiate athlete myself, and then as a sociologist who became interested in studying athletes and studying the institution of sport. So I've always been really curious about how these larger structures, things like race, gender, and sexuality, shape the everyday experiences of women athletes. So I wanted to understand how women's women athletes experiences are unique because they're operating within an institution

00:41 - that wasn't made with them in mind. And I wanted to do something that I hadn't seen done in the literature before, which was to truly approach the topic from an intersectional lens. So there's been a lot of work in sports, sociology in particular, but across the fields that have looked at, women athletes navigating gender and even sexuality. but there wasn't a lot out there

01:05 - that was looking at race, gender, and sexuality at the same time. And so I was curious what it would look like to actually weave all of those things together, and to do so through an ethnography, which is also something that, I hadn't seen done before. And the ethnographic part was important to me because I wanted to be able to observe the players, not just ask them about, for example, how something like gender impacts their lives,

01:31 - but to actually be able to observe it in real time. I think so much of how these things are operating, these large structures like gender, they operate in a way that's so deeply ingrained that we almost don't even notice that they're impacting us. And so if I were to just ask players about them, I don't think I'd be able to get the same information. So it was really important for me to be able to be, in the mix with the players, to be in the locker room, to be on the court to, you know, be in their dorm rooms

02:01 - with them, which is, which is what I was able to do through the ethnography. And so through that, I was able to unearth a lot more about the intricacies and the nuance around the expectations they were navigating. more so than I think I would've if I were just interviewing them and asking them about it. I think there's a couple things, about my own experience. So I think because I was a collegiate athlete myself,

02:24 - I think first of all, that helped me when it came time to actually, being embedded with a team, I was able to sort of speak the language. I was able to understand that experience and talk about it, from my own lived experience. So that allowed me an inroad into the space that I don't think I would've had otherwise. So that was really, really important. I think the other thing though is that, it's almost like that fish in water metaphor, right?

02:52 - When you're so used to an environment, there was a little bit of time where I had to try to Step back as if I didn't understand how the institution worked, to try to see it in a new way in order to kind of problematize or question the things I was seeing, which for me, all felt very normal, right? Because I had gone through it myself. But to someone from the outside wouldn't. So I had to really work quite hard to, I think,

03:20 - ask some questions that, again, I wouldn't have otherwise asked because it felt so natural. You know, I think one of the most interesting things and surprising things for me when I did the research for this book was that although it had been many years since I had played college basketball, at that point, the kinds of challenges that I was observing the players experiencing were the same challenges that I went through as an athlete. And I was quite surprised by that.

03:46 - so in terms of my own experience, you know, I was sort of always feeling like I was balancing, I was sort of on this tightrope. I wanted to be the best that I could at my sport. So I wanted to, to train. I particularly loved weightlifting. I loved getting, developing muscle mass, for example. And then I observed my teammates who were kind of shying away from those things. They were very hesitant, had a, had a lot of anxiety

04:10 - around getting what they thought would be too big. and that was always sort of very curious to me. Of course, I did understand that we were under this pressure always to be appropriately feminine so we could be athletic, we could be strong, we could be fit, but we also had to always keep in mind that, you know, we were women. And so we were expected to, I think, look and behave in ways more aligned with kind

04:35 - of common understandings of femininity. And that was always something that I understood internally as an athlete I observed and my teammates. and so then when it came time to do this research, you know, that was the primary question for me going into this space, was, is this still going on? Is this contradiction between being athletic and being appropriately feminine, still something that athletes are navigating? And again, perhaps, you know,

05:02 - it shouldn't have been surprising to me, but it was that, that in fact, that's still there. Of course, every athlete navigates it differently and are impacted differently. But there was still this tension between how can I be athletic and all of what that means and be appropriately feminine, because the things that we, require of, of athletes, toughness, aggression, right? Those are characteristics we associate with masculinity.

05:30 - And so how do you do that? Well, at the same time, balancing, the expectations that you will embody, characteristics associated with femininity, which are opposite of that. So these big expectations, you know, these are large societal expectations, right? They're rooted in long histories of, ideas about gender, about sexuality, about race, about body image and beauty ideals, right?

05:57 - That have been kind of developing over time, and they're enduring, right? So we certainly have changed. Women can and do things now, especially in sports that they could never do before. And that's really important, and we need to pay attention to that. At the same time, there are ways in which these expectations endure and they continually find ways to pop up, right? So again, you can be strong, you can play sports, right?

06:23 - It's encouraged, but you always have to be mindful of this other piece of it as well. to your question about the coaches, you know, that was something that was really interesting for me too. So, you know, there are these large looming expectations that we all sort of know exist, but there were ways in which the coaches, for this team did both explicitly and implicitly also project those

06:47 - expectations onto the players. And the players were also doing that themselves. So the players had, they had their coaches, they had family members, they had strangers, right? They had each other sort of always policing them in some way, right? Are you really gonna wear your hair like that? Are you sure you don't wanna wear this? Instead of that, right? Those sorts of explicit questions. There's a scene I talk about in the book

07:09 - where the star player of the team is coming down to the court, ahead of a game, and she's sort of running and the wind is blowing, and her hair is, is sort of, you know, falling a little bit out, out of her ponytail. And she gets down to the court, and the coach was so upset that they asked her to go back into the locker room to fix her hair so that it looked more appropriate before she came out to play the game. And so that's just an example, right?

07:35 - Of this player is, an hour from competition, right? She's the best player on the team. She should be thinking about one thing and one thing only. But here she has her coach coming to remind her that actually she should, she should also be thinking about what her hair looks like. You know, these things matter. I mean, sometimes people ask me, so what? Right? So you pay a little bit more attention to your hair, so you, you know, make sure your legs are shaved, right?

08:02 - Like, what's the big deal about it all? And you know, in some ways it's true, like these sort of things that the athletes are doing to navigate this tension, some of 'em don't matter, but others do. So another example that I talk about in the book is, is that, so when there's this tension that's existing, athletes use what, what I borrow a phrase from Arley Hawk's child, which is gender strategies. They use these gender strategies

08:25 - to help mediate the tension. So it could be things like, I have to make sure my hair is done a certain way. Maybe I'm putting on makeup before a game, right? Maybe I'm covering my tattoos because I don't think tattoos look particularly ladylike, but there were other players who were doing much more impactful things like they were refusing to weight train, for example, because they didn't want to gain muscle mass. Well, we know that when you're competing in elite level

08:49 - college sports, muscle mass makes you stronger, makes you faster, right? So there's a direct Impact there on what they're allowing themselves to do, whether they're allowing themselves to fulfill their full potential. So I think that's really important. I also think that maybe a less thought about impact is that, you know, the more mental energy I take, thinking about how I look means I have less available, right? To be thinking about how am I performing, right?

09:18 - So there's all these ways in which these athletes are spending time, right? They're cognitive, precious, cognitive resources, thinking about these things that could be used in other ways. And I think we can't underestimate how important that is. One of the things that was really important for me in the book is to tie what I was seeing with the athletes that I worked with and interviewed to professional athletes to see sort of,

09:42 - are these things happening at larger levels? And so the, the professional athletes that I talk about in the book, I thought were some really, great examples of this. Serena Williams, of course, I think she's probably the most famous of, of these athletes. And I think most people are likely familiar that, you know, throughout her entire career, she faced kind of relentless criticism, about her femininity, right?

10:06 - Or her lack of femininity. She was always too big, too tough, too aggressive, wearing outfits that were too tight, right? She was too confident always in some way too much, right? That was sort of, Serena's experience in the public eye. you know, she was regularly referred to as animal-like as frightening as unattractive. And this is not just from people on social media. This is from, newscasters, from, from sports commentators, right?

10:37 - and so these criticisms, of course, are, are rooted in racist and sexist tropes of black women's bodies, right? As masculine, as animalistic, right? Things that, again, have been around a long time. And Serena, and of course her sister Venus as well, I think experienced, really relentless criticism in that way. Brittany Griner, you know, similarly, right? Brittany Griner is WNBA basketball player,

11:04 - has had a tremendous college career, has had a tremendous professional career, of course, was most recently in the news because of her, detention and imprisonment in Russia. She too, wa has constantly dealt with sort of unending critique of her presentation of gender and of her sexuality. she was actually in 2012 awarded best female athlete, by the ESPYs. And, the reaction on social media to

11:34 - that was this onslaught of, of racist and heterosexist commentary, questioning her sex, mocking her sexuality, similar to Serena, calling her things like frightening and manly. and you know, I think what's interesting with Brittany Griner is that her treatment is, is particularly Unforgiving because she's challenging these sort of dominant notions of what it means to be a woman. but because she's doing so as someone who's openly queer

12:02 - and because she's doing so as a black woman. And so again, race, gender, and sexuality are really operating all together in that space. Gabby Douglas, Olympic gymnast is somebody I also talk quite a bit about. She's been critiqued for all kinds of things. she's been critiqued for not smiling when her teammate was awarded the gold medal instead of her, she was,

12:24 - faced a tremendous disparagement, about her hair at both the 2012 and the 2016 Olympic Games. People were saying that her hair looked crazy, and unkempt. and you know, I think what's particularly interesting about Gabby Douglas, I think, unlike Serena and Brittany, is that no one was critiquing her bodily presentation, but people were critiquing her hair,

12:52 - which is a deeply racialized, characteristic, right? So, in our sort of understanding of womanhood and hierarchies of, of womanhood, white womanhood has always been at the top of that hierarchy. And that's in large part because of hair. So, so this idea that you could be an Olympian, but you have to be an Olympian with good hair, who conforms to these standards of f beauty and femininity that, were not constructed

13:22 - with someone like you in mind is is something that Gabby Douglas has has dealt with. Lastly, I'll, I'll talk about, castor Samya, who I think is, is similar in some ways, but is is different than others. So, castor Samya, Olympic track and field runner, tremendous athlete has actually been banned from competition, because her testosterone levels are higher than

13:45 - what is allowed by, what's now called the, world Athletics International governing body. ultimately what led to this process is Castor was so dominant in her sport that she had her competitors question her sex. and that led to a whole process of world athletics, putting her through what's called a gender verification process in which they were subjecting her to hormone treatment. and then ultimately they adopted new policies

14:14 - to restrict, women athletes with naturally higher, than average levels of testosterone. So if Castro, Sonia had appeared more feminine, right? If her gender presentation was not as masculine, she might never have endured this questioning. but again, the questioning of her sex, was done through these really archaic and enduring tropes of black women as unfeminine of ish and aggressive. What I think all of these athletes have in common,

14:42 - even though they're different in some ways, is that they're experiencing, this unique form of criticism faced by black women. And this is, something that Scholar Moya Bailey has talked about as massage noir, which is this combination of racism and sexism experienced by black women as a result of their, existing at the intersection of both racial and gender marginalization. And then I think with Castor Sonia and Brittany Griner, we can add to that sexuality, right?

15:12 - So their, open queerness, adds another layer to this, to their situation and, is a factor in, in what we've seen of their treatment. in the public eye. My hope is that readers will understand that there's much more to sports than meets the eye. sports are, are so powerful. They're so important to so many people, and there are tremendous benefits, both as a fan,

15:41 - but also to participating in it. But it's an institution. and like any social institution, it's a place where inequities can be perpetuated. And I think it's really important, especially if you care about sports, to really think about, how is this institution serving some athletes better than others, right? And what can we do to make some change?

16:06 - I also hope that readers, maybe those who have been athletes themselves or are currently athletes, maybe they'll resonate with some of the big themes of the book, and maybe for some they'll have new ways of understanding their experiences or thinking about, what, what sports means to them, in new ways. after reading the book, I also hope that if there are coaches

16:30 - or sports administrators who read the book, this will be an opportunity for them to really think about what are the ways that they can make, their program or their institution more inclusive for all of their athletes so that athletes can be valued not just for the athletic talent and success that they bring to the program, but as their full authentic selves. So I really hope that that's something that comes out of it. But ultimately, my, my big hope is

16:56 - that people will just come away with a more nuanced understanding of how things like race, gender, sexuality, things we don't often think about when we think about sports, actually shape the experiences of athletes in these really complex ways. And especially women athletes, and especially black women athletes. So people who are at the intersections of many of these identities,

17:19 - and that, you know, these athletes are phenomenal in their sport and they're phenomenal in a lot of other ways, and they're sort of constantly having to navigate that, which is, which is a pretty unique challenge. I.

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