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Distributing Status

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Honorific rewards are all about status and illustrate status processes in a way that few other social phenomena do. Why do we have so many honorific awards and prizes? Samuel Clark argues that answering this question requires a separate historical analysis of different awards and prizes.

Image courtesy of interviewee. June 10, 2024

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The speaker discusses their research and subsequent book, which examines the evolution of state honors in Western Europe, particularly from the Middle Ages to contemporary times. Initially, the speaker authored a book about aristocratic status but became intrigued by the lack of comprehensive literature on state honors. The research utilized a mix of secondary sources, such as existing literature, and some primary sources, including statistical evidence related to military honors.

The speaker outlines the argument that modern honors are historically influenced and cannot be understood without examining their origins. They highlight how honors have undergone changes over time, influenced by social developments and cultural shifts from aristocratic to bourgeois values, particularly regarding merit.

The book is structured around two main themes: population management and social control, discussing how honors incentivize collective action and facilitate communication within society. The speaker emphasizes the importance of honors in creating common knowledge among groups, particularly in military contexts, where medals serve to motivate and establish expectations among soldiers.

The discussion also touches on the complexities of status distribution when awarding honors, which often leads to societal instability and creates competition for status. The historical scarcity of women receiving honors is highlighted, with the speaker pointing out that this was not only due to societal beliefs about gender but also to the existing status structure that would be challenged by awarding women.

Overall, the speaker argues that honors play a significant role in shaping societal values and structures and provides insights into their evolution, contributing to a broader understanding of modern European history.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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I had completed 1995.

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I had completed a book on the evolution

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of aristocratic status in Western Europe,

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and it had covered to, from the Middle Ages to the end

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of the 18th century.

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Uh, I had planned to go on

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and write a, another book on the evolution

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of aristocratic status in the 19th and 20th centuries.

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But I was struck by the fact that so little

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had been written on the evolution of state honors.

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There had been, books on and,

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and articles on particular honors,

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but nobody had looked at the evolution of state honors.

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And so that sort of distracted me,

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and I decided that I would start into something like that.

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Basically, the research was based on, secondary sources,

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especially, what books and articles

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and documents were available on a particular state honors,

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but also on, works on the many historical forces

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that had gone into, the making of modern,

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honors.

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I also used some primary sources, especially,

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statistical evidence that collected, that enabled me to,

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for example, to show, what, for

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what eng military engagements, the number

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of Victoria crosses were awarded, things like that.

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So that there was primary research,

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but most of it was based on secondary sources.

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I take a fairly broad definition and,

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and of, of honor of awards,

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and that there are non, in non-material awards

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that are meant intended

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to raise the status of the recipient.

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And now my book specifically examines,

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honorific rewards handed out by the state.

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One of the basic arguments in my book is that

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what exists today is a product of history.

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Uh, and therefore, the, honors

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that we have today are a product of history.

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Uh, what happens today is not simply the result

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of inspirations needs

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and pressures of today, how these inspirations needs

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and pressures are, handled.

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How the, how they're met is shaped by what has come

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to us in the, past.

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And in my view, the nature

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of state honors today cannot be understood without examining

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their origin in the middle of the ages of how they have

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developed since, then,

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and to take the most obvious example that, that you and,

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and most of our readers be filling with is, is the,

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the British period, the origin of which goes back

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to the Middle Ages.

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Uh, but it has evolved

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and changed over the years as a result

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of different social developments

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and pressures in each historical period, and,

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and has changed up, of course, right

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to the most recent period.

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It's the, the or British period has gone

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through significant change.

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I argued that the same is true of military rewards, that

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they have changed significantly as a result of changes

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in the nature of armies during the 18th, 19th,

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and 20th centuries.

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And that those changes need to be understood in order

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to understand the handing out

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of military rewards at the present time.

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Cultural power is the, effect, the power

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to affect the behavior of others by shaping their beliefs,

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perceptions and values.

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Um, now, the period in which honors e emerged were,

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were initially shaped by aristocratic culture,

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and they had cultural power by virtue of their link

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to the aristocracy and to monarchies.

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But over time, that changed,

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and increasingly, they, they began

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to develop their cultural power

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and to take on a cultural power that was associated,

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supposedly associated with the bourgeoisie.

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More specifically, they came to be a sociology,

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associated with the bourgeois belief in,

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in the importance of merit.

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Now, I actually argue in the book

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that if we look back at it, you'll see, we see that,

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a concern with merit actually has aristocratic origins,

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before the 19th century.

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But the fact remained that in the 19th century,

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the bourgeoisie non aristo cutts were able to use,

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the, aristocracy

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and to accuse them of, of, being concerned only

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with birth, to undermine their power, undermine this,

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the their in, affluence.

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And a, as a result of that, they were able

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to weaken the aristocracy.

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And the honors, became instruments

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of cultural power in this, effort of the bourgeoisie

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to undermine the aristocracy.

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Population management, as such, simply means getting people

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to do what you want them to do

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and not to do what you don't want them to do.

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Now, I distinguish between, I talk, I separate them in,

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in the book, but they, they really go much.

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But, much together.

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But I do separate, the first, first set

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of chapters on population management, deals

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with organizing collective action

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and the collective actions of soldiers working classes,

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state servants, and indeed the popula population.

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Generally. The second set of chapters deals with

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what can be called social control,

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or what in the literature is most often referred to

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as discipline disciplining populations.

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Uh, now, major changes took place in the 17th

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and 18th centuries that made it more difficult to

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organize collective action.

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These were the development,

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the massive increase in population, the development

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of centralized states.

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And, the growth of state bureaucracies

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and honors were used to

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organize collective actions in these, populations.

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Uh, in a number of ways, it has a number of purposes.

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The most obvious is as an incentive,

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although in my whole book, I tend to kind

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of downplay the role of honors in incentives,

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because I don't think people very much go, go

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and do something specifically in order to win,

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a, an honor.

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Uh, what is more important is how honors legitimate,

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collective action and, and often new collective activities.

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So, for example, in 1830, when the Belgian State was,

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founded basically from nothing, one

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of the first things they did was to establish honors,

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most importantly, the order of, Leopold.

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And they did this because this is what states do.

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They have honors. So if we are gonna be a, a new state,

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then we should have our own, honors it.

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Also, doing so, also conveyed the values, presumably of,

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the new regime.

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And this has been done also by all the new states

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that have been created with the, the decline

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of European imperialism since the,

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since the the Second World War.

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You will find, if you go through to all the different states

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that have been formed, independent states, you'll find

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that the first thing they do is create a set of honors.

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Uh, gana, when it became independent,

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immediately created four, honors,

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to establish its legitimacy as a state,

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and specifically as independent of the British, empire.

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And its, set of honors.

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Uh, and the other, thing, the form of legitimation,

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that is done, is that, honors will often be created

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to legitimate war.

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And they were created by, European imperialists

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to legitimate, European imperialism, in addition to

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operating as an incentive.

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And in addition to, providing legitimation,

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more importantly, at least for me, my book is that,

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honors, facilitate communication

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and enable coordination.

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Um, and in my book,

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I pay particular attention to military honors

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and to the growth in the size of armies,

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and changes in methods by which armies were,

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coordinated as a result of changes in the nature of,

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warfare.

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Now, a major problem in, in, in, in coordination is

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to get people to do things

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that they will only do if they know

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that other people are going to do them.

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Uh, one of the purposes of military medals is

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to persuade more, soldiers that if they engage in,

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a battle, that their fellow soldiers will do the same thing.

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So, if I'm a soldier and I'm trying to decide whether

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to charge up a hill against the enemy,

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it's critically important to me that

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my fellow soldiers are gonna do the same thing.

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And one of the functions that medals serve is that

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I, can assume that my fellow soldiers have seen

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the military medals that have been awarded,

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and the reasons for which they've been awarded,

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and that they will then, that mo motivate them to, to do so.

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And equally important, they will know

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that I have seen these, awards and medals

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and the reasons for which they award.

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And so, this creates a common understanding,

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that is known that there's a whole large body in

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what's called collective action.

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And, this phenomenon

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of creating this kind of mutual understanding

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among dis different participants in a collective action is

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known as creating what's called common knowledge.

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Honorific rewards are useful for all of the above,

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for incentives for legitimating collective actions,

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and for, creating common, common knowledge

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because they have communication power.

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And typically, of course, what, as you know,

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state honors usually have some kind of a, a medal

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or a badge, and some, in fact, some of them are named

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after that, like the Victoria Cross, for example.

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Um, but even those that, that are not named

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after a, their, their badge

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or cross, like the order of the British Empire,

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will also have a badge associated with it.

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So all of the orders that we can talk about have a badge

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as sorted, associated with them.

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And the reason for this is because,

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and I have a long session in my book,

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in which I talk about the evolution of metals.

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And, and I'm not just talking about honor honors,

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as methods of communication,

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because they have, they have, they're highly effective of,

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of communication because they're easily transported

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and they're easily made visible.

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And, that fact is one of the reasons I argue,

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that, in metals, metals are commonly used

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with honors and, and indicates the importance

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of communication to honors discipline

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by power is simply mean, getting people to do what you want

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them to do in everyday life or in their jobs.

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Uh, it is clearly not separate from

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organizing collective action.

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And that's why I lumped the two of them together

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as population management.

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But I, nevertheless, I do think

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that if you approach the subject, not only in terms

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of organizing collective action,

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but in terms of creating discipline among populations,

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you understand it more.

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Now, there are various kinds of discipline, and,

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and this is important to understand, for our purposes.

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First of all, we can distinguish between external discipline

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and internal discipline.

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Obviously, external discipline is discipline that is imposed

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by someone on someone else.

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Your boss imposes discipline on you.

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Uh, your mother imposes discipline on you.

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Uh, internal, discipline is self-imposed.

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We do something because

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otherwise we would have a lower opinion of ourselves.

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Uh, the other distinction that we can make is between

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what is called corporate di discipline

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and individualized discipline.

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Corporate discipline refers to, to, to, discipline,

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in which people are made to do something,

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or equally important not to do something

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because of their membership in a group,

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because they would lose membership in a gross group,

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or they would lose the rewards of membership in a group,

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if they didn't, go along.

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It also refers to, making people feel shameful

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as members of a group.

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So this is what I call corporate discipline.

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Individualized discipline is discipline that is applied

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to an individual regardless of any groups

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that the person belongs and belongs to it.

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Now, for understanding state honors,

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a particular kind of individualized discipline is important,

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and it is called individualization.

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Uh, and I'm gonna explain that in a, in a, a moment.

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But, let me just go over first of all,

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the various ways in which,

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honorific rewards have been used for,

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enforcing all these, these different kinds of disciplines,

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and in creating discipline, discipline populations.

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And it's important to understand that individualization is,

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is, is not the same thing as individualism,

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though they affect one another.

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So what do we mean by individualism?

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Uh, individualism confer refer to a value,

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usually meaning belief in self autonomy.

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Uh, but individualism can also refer to construction

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of social reality, the belief that

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that societies are made up of individuals

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rather than groups,

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that society is an aggregation of individuals.

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Um, and this has been a major change historically, towards,

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and, and even you can see the differences in societies in

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the world today, in the extent to which,

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in which people think that society is composed

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of an aggregation of individuals as opposed to groups.

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Anyway, the the point is that

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in order to understand this individualization,

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which I'm gonna talk about, it is necessary

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to have an individual construction of social reality

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in order for individualization to, operate.

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Okay? So what is individualization?

15:07.275 --> 15:09.805
Well, in the technical terms, if you look at that,

15:09.805 --> 15:11.805
if you went into the literature on this, you would say that,

15:12.035 --> 15:15.885
that it's, it's putting a, putting oneself and,

15:16.025 --> 15:19.205
and being placed in a system of negative

15:19.225 --> 15:21.965
and positive classification, negative

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and positive classification.

15:23.705 --> 15:25.445
Am I a bad person or a good person?

15:26.065 --> 15:29.165
Uh, am I a dishonest person or an honest, person?

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And so on and so forth.

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Now, what honors do is they contribute to

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the construction of these kinds of classifications.

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They lead people to evaluate themselves in terms of

15:46.085 --> 15:49.645
a positive and negative cons, construction.

15:50.345 --> 15:54.485
And, and they have forces them to relate themselves relative

15:54.505 --> 15:58.965
to the, those they know who have, who have received awards

15:59.025 --> 16:03.445
and the reasons for which they have, received them.

16:03.505 --> 16:07.635
And so forces them to ask themselves, well, how do I compare

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with this person that I see who's received a award?

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Now, it, it's important to understand that this doesn't mean

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that those who are handing out the awards want, want you,

16:19.575 --> 16:23.475
you to imitate these recipients.

16:24.415 --> 16:26.915
Uh, most of the time it would be impossible.

16:26.985 --> 16:29.075
It's impo it would be impossible for the average person

16:29.095 --> 16:31.995
or even a, a very, someone who's a very good athlete to, in,

16:32.215 --> 16:35.475
to, to imitate the recipients of athletic awards or,

16:35.775 --> 16:39.715
or great auditors, authors or politicians and, and, and,

16:39.935 --> 16:41.035
and, and so forth.

16:41.175 --> 16:43.915
So it's, it's typically a thing that's impossible to do.

16:45.375 --> 16:50.115
But I also suggest that it's not, necessarily what we,

16:50.255 --> 16:53.475
we want people to do that commanders

16:53.495 --> 16:57.315
and modern armies as, as opposed to medieval armies,

16:57.485 --> 17:00.315
commanders and modern honors, honors,

17:00.335 --> 17:02.595
armies do not want soldiers all trying

17:02.595 --> 17:04.515
to be heroes that would be chaotic.

17:05.375 --> 17:09.035
Uh, what they want them to do is to admire recipients

17:09.035 --> 17:10.115
of military honors,

17:10.495 --> 17:13.915
and most of all, to judge themselves by reference

17:14.055 --> 17:16.235
to the recipients of honors.

17:17.265 --> 17:18.635
This is individualization.

17:18.885 --> 17:22.395
First of all, explain that there are two types

17:22.535 --> 17:23.875
of status power.

17:25.055 --> 17:29.235
Uh, the first of all is the power of, of, of having status,

17:29.415 --> 17:32.635
of having other people respect you,

17:32.665 --> 17:33.955
because you're so-and-So

17:33.955 --> 17:36.715
because you went to a prestigious university,

17:36.715 --> 17:39.875
because you teach in a pres prestigious university, that's,

17:39.975 --> 17:43.515
that's, so that, that's the, the status of,

17:43.785 --> 17:46.915
that status power in the sense of, of having status.

17:47.975 --> 17:50.725
The other kind of status power is, is

17:50.725 --> 17:53.325
what I call status distribution power.

17:54.065 --> 17:57.325
Uh, it is that power to alter the status of others.

17:58.545 --> 18:01.645
Now, audiences and fans have status, distribution power.

18:01.915 --> 18:04.725
They can determine the status of celebrities.

18:05.745 --> 18:08.085
Uh, they can very quickly destroy the status

18:08.145 --> 18:09.285
of a, a celebrity.

18:09.755 --> 18:12.005
Obviously, that's not what I'm talking about in my book.

18:12.305 --> 18:15.765
I'm talking about specifically about, members

18:15.785 --> 18:18.685
of governments, who determine

18:18.785 --> 18:20.165
who gets honors and who doesn't.

18:20.875 --> 18:24.565
It's their status distributing power, that I am,

18:25.025 --> 18:26.445
talking about.

18:27.625 --> 18:32.045
And on the one hand, it's, it, it,

18:32.065 --> 18:33.965
it can be great to have such status power.

18:34.665 --> 18:39.045
You can, you can tend to, reward people that do the kind

18:39.045 --> 18:40.125
of things you think are important,

18:40.625 --> 18:43.565
and you can even reward people who do the kinds of things

18:43.565 --> 18:46.325
that you do, in that way raise your own status.

18:46.745 --> 18:49.165
But one of the main arguments of my book is

18:49.165 --> 18:51.525
that being a status distributor and an

18:51.545 --> 18:54.605
and awarding state honors is not as easy as it sounds.

18:54.785 --> 18:56.005
It has its challenges.

18:56.745 --> 18:59.685
And, and I quote in my book, a number of, of,

18:59.685 --> 19:04.405
people talking about, how, horrific a,

19:04.525 --> 19:05.525
a business it is.

19:06.545 --> 19:10.365
And the reason it has its challenges is

19:10.365 --> 19:14.645
because status is zero sum raising the status

19:14.865 --> 19:18.005
of one person or group lowers the status of someone else.

19:19.065 --> 19:21.405
And this is often not recognized.

19:21.545 --> 19:23.685
And, and, and, and, and, and,

19:23.705 --> 19:26.045
and yet, it is a major phenomenon.

19:27.025 --> 19:29.445
Um, and zero sum.

19:29.545 --> 19:33.805
The zero sum problem with honors is exacerbated by the fact

19:34.435 --> 19:38.565
that they, they are, they're faced with two interrelated

19:39.445 --> 19:40.885
existing status structures.

19:41.785 --> 19:43.845
The first is a status structure of society

19:44.425 --> 19:46.925
is an existing status structure of society.

19:46.945 --> 19:48.925
In the 18th and 19th century was

19:48.925 --> 19:52.045
that aristocrats had higher status than non aristocrats.

19:52.225 --> 19:54.205
But today, military officers have higher

19:54.205 --> 19:55.365
status than non officers.

19:55.665 --> 19:58.845
People of European descent have higher status than those

19:59.145 --> 20:02.005
of non-European stent at descent women,

20:02.005 --> 20:04.565
and women have higher sta men have higher status than,

20:04.595 --> 20:06.165
than women and so on and so forth.

20:06.265 --> 20:08.245
And this was even more true in the 19th century.

20:09.105 --> 20:11.125
So there's a status structure of society

20:11.125 --> 20:13.645
that the status distributors, the, the,

20:13.665 --> 20:15.965
the people handing out awards have to worry about.

20:16.395 --> 20:19.365
They also have to worry about the status structure of the,

20:19.425 --> 20:20.605
of the awards themselves,

20:21.115 --> 20:22.125
because, you know,

20:22.225 --> 20:24.565
the different state awards all have a different,

20:24.565 --> 20:26.125
there's a different hierarchy of them.

20:26.625 --> 20:29.165
And typically, countries actually spell out very clearly

20:29.165 --> 20:30.845
what is the hierarchy of their awards.

20:31.425 --> 20:35.205
And then when any within, orders, at least,

20:35.205 --> 20:37.685
there are different ranks, British Order,

20:37.685 --> 20:39.445
the Bruche Empire has different ranks.

20:40.265 --> 20:45.105
And as a result of this, that,

20:45.845 --> 20:48.725
honors distributors have more difficulty,

20:49.195 --> 20:52.765
have great difficulty in awarding status honors,

20:52.795 --> 20:55.005
because the problem is that

20:55.885 --> 20:59.645
whenever they, make an award, they can offend,

21:00.245 --> 21:02.125
re the recipients of awards,

21:02.355 --> 21:05.085
they can offend those people who already have an award.

21:05.275 --> 21:07.965
They can even offend the person who, who,

21:08.105 --> 21:09.685
holds an award.

21:10.265 --> 21:14.725
Um, let me, make a particular reference

21:14.725 --> 21:16.285
to the award of status to women.

21:16.385 --> 21:19.845
And the problem that this faced, it was, it was,

21:19.845 --> 21:21.325
was faced in the 19th century.

21:22.585 --> 21:26.045
One of the remarkable things about the state honors,

21:26.065 --> 21:30.605
the major state honors, is that during the 19th century

21:31.875 --> 21:35.205
when literally thousands of men were being awarded

21:35.205 --> 21:38.765
with state honors, virtually no women were awarded.

21:39.035 --> 21:41.165
Like, I'm not talking about a small number of women.

21:41.505 --> 21:43.125
I'm talking about almost none.

21:43.585 --> 21:44.925
We have records of two or three,

21:46.175 --> 21:48.085
which from modern standard point

21:48.085 --> 21:49.485
standpoint seems remarkable.

21:50.145 --> 21:52.725
So why was this? How, how could this happen?

21:53.395 --> 21:54.485
Well, there are a number of reasons.

21:54.905 --> 21:56.125
One, of course, is the obvious reason.

21:56.125 --> 21:57.525
Well, women were considered inferior.

21:58.305 --> 22:01.045
And well, and I wouldn't deny that some people believe this,

22:01.265 --> 22:04.565
but this doesn't explain the total absent absence

22:05.465 --> 22:09.685
of honors, for women in the 19th century.

22:10.305 --> 22:12.725
Uh, and indeed, I can give you examples

22:12.945 --> 22:15.085
of honors distributors who believed

22:15.085 --> 22:17.165
that when a woman did something exceptional,

22:17.915 --> 22:21.045
this was all the more reason to give her an award,

22:21.075 --> 22:22.405
because she was a woman.

22:22.465 --> 22:23.525
And yet she did such

22:23.525 --> 22:27.205
and such, such a, an example of this is it was

22:27.755 --> 22:31.565
that Lord Parmeston wanted to award Florence Nightingale

22:31.715 --> 22:35.365
with a prestigious medal, but he found that he couldn't.

22:35.425 --> 22:36.605
He said, no, no, you can't do that.

22:37.505 --> 22:41.405
So as a result, he didn't, he didn't do that.

22:41.705 --> 22:44.765
And, Florence Knight now did not get a major award

22:45.455 --> 22:47.645
until, the 20th century.

22:48.625 --> 22:50.645
Um, and this, this wasn't

22:50.645 --> 22:53.405
because, Lord's Palmerson had,

22:53.505 --> 22:55.645
it was an anti-feminist in any, any way.

22:56.145 --> 22:57.765
He was a crusty old aristocrat,

22:58.345 --> 23:02.845
but he was constrained by the existing status structure,

23:02.945 --> 23:05.285
of, honors.

23:05.795 --> 23:08.765
Another reason that's been given for the lack of women in,

23:09.025 --> 23:12.565
in, honors is that they, didn't en

23:13.235 --> 23:17.485
generally engage in the kinds of activities,

23:17.915 --> 23:22.685
that were, awarded honors and, and so on and so forth.

23:23.505 --> 23:26.645
But the, the main reason I argue is that

23:27.345 --> 23:29.005
to have awarded honors

23:29.185 --> 23:32.165
to women would have threatened the existing

23:32.185 --> 23:33.205
status structure.

23:33.305 --> 23:36.365
It would've created embarrassment, discontent,

23:36.505 --> 23:40.325
and resentment, because men would have great trouble dealing

23:40.475 --> 23:42.645
with the fact that there was a woman

23:43.465 --> 23:45.525
who had an honor when they never had one,

23:45.985 --> 23:47.725
or a woman who had a harm honor

23:47.725 --> 23:49.645
with a higher status than their honor.

23:50.665 --> 23:54.365
And so this created, would create problems

23:55.025 --> 23:56.965
in society would cause disruption.

23:57.625 --> 24:01.485
Uh, and the status distributors being po political people

24:01.485 --> 24:04.765
who wanted to stay away from controversy, the best thing

24:04.765 --> 24:08.045
to do was to not give women any, honors.

24:09.715 --> 24:13.375
This, of course, created certain incon created

24:13.475 --> 24:15.735
inconsistencies, indeed, hypocrisies,

24:16.165 --> 24:20.415
because you had situations in which women were doing things

24:20.725 --> 24:25.295
that were clearly superior, what to what men were de

24:25.295 --> 24:26.455
doing, who were getting honors,

24:26.455 --> 24:27.855
and yet they weren't getting honors.

24:28.835 --> 24:32.055
Uh, and this was a bit like

24:32.725 --> 24:34.015
what happened with voting.

24:34.275 --> 24:36.055
One of the reasons, and I'm not saying it's the only reason,

24:36.055 --> 24:37.775
one of the reasons women eventually got the vote,

24:38.445 --> 24:41.575
because the situation in developed in which you had women

24:41.575 --> 24:44.215
with university education who weren't allowed to vote, well,

24:44.565 --> 24:48.135
well, with the expansion of voting, we, we had men with,

24:48.135 --> 24:49.335
with no education,

24:49.335 --> 24:50.975
their hardly education at all, who were voting.

24:51.035 --> 24:53.495
It was just, it was just so ridiculous that eventually,

24:53.955 --> 24:55.495
you know, the, the opponents

24:55.495 --> 24:59.415
of the women's franchise just generally had had to give in.

25:00.075 --> 25:02.775
And, and sort of the same thing was true with honors,

25:02.975 --> 25:04.655
although there was never really any opposition.

25:04.655 --> 25:07.655
But this was a major factor in the creation of the Order

25:07.655 --> 25:10.295
of the British Empire, was that,

25:10.435 --> 25:14.335
and it was, it was founded in a, an, an effort to,

25:15.635 --> 25:19.615
a reward those civilians who had contributed

25:19.675 --> 25:21.975
to the Great War, but weren't being recognized.

25:22.355 --> 25:23.855
Men were getting military wards,

25:23.855 --> 25:26.775
but women were getting, civilians weren't getting anything.

25:27.235 --> 25:30.535
And a major component of these civilians

25:30.535 --> 25:32.175
who were contributing to the, to the,

25:32.435 --> 25:34.695
the war in various ways were women.

25:35.715 --> 25:38.495
And as a result, the order of the British Empire was,

25:38.825 --> 25:41.495
there were women before it who had received honors

25:41.595 --> 25:43.535
and including the Legion of Honor.

25:45.035 --> 25:46.695
But, the, the order

25:46.695 --> 25:49.975
of the British Empire was the first one to award,

25:50.385 --> 25:52.455
women in large numbers, although,

25:52.615 --> 25:54.215
although even in it, they were underrepresented,

25:55.075 --> 25:57.375
but the numbers were really quite significant

25:57.475 --> 25:58.775
and broke away.

25:58.835 --> 26:01.295
And, and so if you try to, you're interested in, you know,

26:01.295 --> 26:04.655
when did state honors start being given to women,

26:04.755 --> 26:05.775
at least in, in Britain?

26:05.915 --> 26:08.415
The answer is with the order of the British, empire.

26:09.315 --> 26:13.895
Now, I don't wanna, overstate the,

26:14.755 --> 26:19.675
the stability

26:20.175 --> 26:23.875
of existing status, structures, obviously,

26:24.395 --> 26:27.515
existing status structures, can change over time.

26:28.015 --> 26:32.915
Uh, the aristocrat no longer have the kind same kind

26:32.915 --> 26:36.795
of status relative non aristocrats that they, used

26:36.815 --> 26:37.915
of, health.

26:38.935 --> 26:41.555
Uh, but what I would also like to point out is

26:41.555 --> 26:44.285
that even the honor system itself creates

26:45.065 --> 26:46.285
status instability.

26:46.715 --> 26:49.405
It's, it creates its own, status,

26:49.665 --> 26:50.725
instability.

26:50.745 --> 26:55.245
And that is because the problem that is, is, is faced

26:55.385 --> 26:59.085
by status, honors distributors, is that the danger

26:59.185 --> 27:02.445
of offending, people,

27:03.035 --> 27:07.645
because people can be offended if, they,

27:07.825 --> 27:11.445
see someone else getting a higher honor than

27:11.475 --> 27:12.765
they, have got.

27:13.555 --> 27:18.125
They can be offended, if they see people,

27:18.395 --> 27:20.325
getting the same honor

27:20.465 --> 27:23.525
or large numbers of people getting an honor that they have,

27:24.385 --> 27:26.405
why are all these people getting the

27:26.405 --> 27:27.525
same honor that I have?

27:27.525 --> 27:28.965
They didn't do anything like what I did.

27:29.905 --> 27:33.645
Um, or they can actually be offended when they're an,

27:33.645 --> 27:35.405
when they're awarded an, an honor

27:35.405 --> 27:36.765
because they don't think it's high enough.

27:37.785 --> 27:41.085
And a good example of that is Horatio Nelson, who

27:41.085 --> 27:42.605
after, his victory

27:42.665 --> 27:46.485
and Nile, he, they felt necessary to give him reward.

27:47.385 --> 27:49.165
Uh, but it was a bit of a problem.

27:49.465 --> 27:52.085
And because of his social position, they thought

27:52.085 --> 27:53.325
that the best they could do for him,

27:53.325 --> 27:54.765
and the king was not even happy with this,

27:55.155 --> 27:56.885
that the best thing could do for him was

27:56.885 --> 27:57.965
to give him a barony.

27:58.825 --> 28:00.445
So Nelson, but Nelson was offended.

28:01.225 --> 28:04.245
And despite the king, he never wore that honor.

28:04.305 --> 28:06.365
He always went around with all the foreign honors

28:06.365 --> 28:08.245
that he got, that he got to show

28:08.245 --> 28:10.405
what other governments really, thought of him.

28:10.705 --> 28:13.805
Now, Nelson was, I'm not, I'm not disparaging Nelson.

28:14.155 --> 28:16.365
He's not unusual, far from it.

28:16.525 --> 28:19.765
I can find you just endless examples of people

28:20.385 --> 28:23.445
who have been offended at, at an honor that they were given.

28:24.385 --> 28:26.285
And many that have, have turned them down

28:26.995 --> 28:29.325
because they said, this honor isn't good enough for me.

28:29.445 --> 28:32.845
I deserve something higher. And sometimes, of course,

28:32.845 --> 28:34.045
they actually are succeed,

28:34.045 --> 28:36.085
because later on they get the higher honor.

28:36.385 --> 28:39.925
Uh, probably most, most of them, don't.

28:39.985 --> 28:42.925
But the, so this is why I make this general argument

28:42.955 --> 28:46.405
that not only do status structures in society change over

28:46.405 --> 28:49.125
time, but even the honor system itself

28:49.795 --> 28:54.085
creates its own instability, as a result

28:54.305 --> 28:58.085
of these, forces of, of what I call status competition.

28:58.305 --> 29:01.045
The main thing I would like you to take from my book I is

29:01.155 --> 29:04.645
that honors are a major,

29:05.115 --> 29:06.645
component of society.

29:07.505 --> 29:12.085
And, and, this is, true,

29:12.425 --> 29:14.525
to an extent of state honors.

29:14.905 --> 29:17.445
It is even more true of non-State Honors.

29:17.645 --> 29:22.045
I think as you're, well aware, the vast number of

29:22.605 --> 29:25.405
businesses and organizations

29:25.465 --> 29:29.205
and voluntary associations that all have their honors,

29:29.325 --> 29:31.445
I point in my boat, book

29:31.445 --> 29:34.445
that the American Sociological Association has no less than

29:34.465 --> 29:35.845
200 annual awards.

29:36.705 --> 29:40.445
Uh, because each of the sort of subsections of

29:40.745 --> 29:43.175
The American Sociological Association,

29:44.015 --> 29:48.135
whenever a new subsection is formed, they, of course,

29:48.135 --> 29:49.775
they had to create an honor system.

29:50.475 --> 29:54.895
Uh, I like to tell the example of my dean, who

29:55.405 --> 29:59.135
created three honors in our faculty,

29:59.725 --> 30:02.575
because the, the faculty of arts had honors,

30:02.575 --> 30:04.375
and he didn't, he didn't think it was right that,

30:04.405 --> 30:06.575
that nobody, that they were walking around with honors

30:06.575 --> 30:08.095
and nobody one in our faculty had them.

30:08.515 --> 30:11.855
So they, it is a major part of our, our, our society.

30:12.815 --> 30:16.575
I also like to think that the, the, the, the,

30:16.595 --> 30:18.695
all the discussion that I provide of

30:18.835 --> 30:20.775
how honors came into being

30:20.835 --> 30:24.895
and evolved, that, in, in,

30:25.075 --> 30:28.215
and that my, my book also contributes to the understanding

30:28.275 --> 30:29.655
of the evolution of modern Europe

30:29.755 --> 30:31.375
and the social forces that led to it.

30:31.655 --> 30:34.855
'cause I spent an enormous amount of, of, part

30:34.855 --> 30:37.695
of the book talking about not just state honors,

30:37.825 --> 30:40.255
about other things besides, state honors,

30:40.275 --> 30:42.095
but I may be just kidding myself.

00:00 - I had completed 1995. I had completed a book on the evolution of aristocratic status in Western Europe, and it had covered to, from the Middle Ages to the end of the 18th century. I had planned to go on

00:14 - and write a, another book on the evolution of aristocratic status in the 19th and 20th centuries. But I was struck by the fact that so little had been written on the evolution of state honors. There had been, books on and, and articles on particular honors, but nobody had looked at the evolution of state honors. And so that sort of distracted me, and I decided that I would start into something like that. Basically, the research was based on, secondary sources,

00:47 - especially, what books and articles and documents were available on a particular state honors, but also on, works on the many historical forces that had gone into, the making of modern, honors. I also used some primary sources, especially, statistical evidence that collected, that enabled me to, for example, to show, what, for what eng military engagements, the number of Victoria crosses were awarded, things like that.

01:23 - So that there was primary research, but most of it was based on secondary sources. I take a fairly broad definition and, and of, of honor of awards, and that there are non, in non-material awards that are meant intended to raise the status of the recipient. And now my book specifically examines, honorific rewards handed out by the state. One of the basic arguments in my book is that

01:48 - what exists today is a product of history. and therefore, the, honors that we have today are a product of history. what happens today is not simply the result of inspirations needs and pressures of today, how these inspirations needs and pressures are, handled. How the, how they're met is shaped by what has come to us in the, past. And in my view, the nature

02:19 - of state honors today cannot be understood without examining their origin in the middle of the ages of how they have developed since, then, and to take the most obvious example that, that you and, and most of our readers be filling with is, is the, the British period, the origin of which goes back to the Middle Ages. but it has evolved and changed over the years as a result of different social developments

02:45 - and pressures in each historical period, and, and has changed up, of course, right to the most recent period. It's the, the or British period has gone through significant change. I argued that the same is true of military rewards, that they have changed significantly as a result of changes in the nature of armies during the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. And that those changes need to be understood in order

03:13 - to understand the handing out of military rewards at the present time. Cultural power is the, effect, the power to affect the behavior of others by shaping their beliefs, perceptions and values. now, the period in which honors e emerged were, were initially shaped by aristocratic culture, and they had cultural power by virtue of their link to the aristocracy and to monarchies. But over time, that changed,

03:44 - and increasingly, they, they began to develop their cultural power and to take on a cultural power that was associated, supposedly associated with the bourgeoisie. More specifically, they came to be a sociology, associated with the bourgeois belief in, in the importance of merit. Now, I actually argue in the book that if we look back at it, you'll see, we see that, a concern with merit actually has aristocratic origins,

04:12 - before the 19th century. But the fact remained that in the 19th century, the bourgeoisie non aristo cutts were able to use, the, aristocracy and to accuse them of, of, being concerned only with birth, to undermine their power, undermine this, the their in, affluence. And a, as a result of that, they were able to weaken the aristocracy. And the honors, became instruments

04:46 - of cultural power in this, effort of the bourgeoisie to undermine the aristocracy. Population management, as such, simply means getting people to do what you want them to do and not to do what you don't want them to do. Now, I distinguish between, I talk, I separate them in, in the book, but they, they really go much. But, much together. But I do separate, the first, first set of chapters on population management, deals

05:14 - with organizing collective action and the collective actions of soldiers working classes, state servants, and indeed the popula population. Generally. The second set of chapters deals with what can be called social control, or what in the literature is most often referred to as discipline disciplining populations. now, major changes took place in the 17th and 18th centuries that made it more difficult to organize collective action.

05:45 - These were the development, the massive increase in population, the development of centralized states. And, the growth of state bureaucracies and honors were used to organize collective actions in these, populations. in a number of ways, it has a number of purposes. The most obvious is as an incentive, although in my whole book, I tend to kind of downplay the role of honors in incentives,

06:15 - because I don't think people very much go, go and do something specifically in order to win, a, an honor. what is more important is how honors legitimate, collective action and, and often new collective activities. So, for example, in 1830, when the Belgian State was, founded basically from nothing, one of the first things they did was to establish honors, most importantly, the order of, Leopold. And they did this because this is what states do.

06:48 - They have honors. So if we are gonna be a, a new state, then we should have our own, honors it. Also, doing so, also conveyed the values, presumably of, the new regime. And this has been done also by all the new states that have been created with the, the decline of European imperialism since the, since the the Second World War. You will find, if you go through to all the different states that have been formed, independent states, you'll find

07:19 - that the first thing they do is create a set of honors. gana, when it became independent, immediately created four, honors, to establish its legitimacy as a state, and specifically as independent of the British, empire. And its, set of honors. and the other, thing, the form of legitimation, that is done, is that, honors will often be created to legitimate war. And they were created by, European imperialists

07:51 - to legitimate, European imperialism, in addition to operating as an incentive. And in addition to, providing legitimation, more importantly, at least for me, my book is that, honors, facilitate communication and enable coordination. and in my book, I pay particular attention to military honors and to the growth in the size of armies, and changes in methods by which armies were,

08:27 - coordinated as a result of changes in the nature of, warfare. Now, a major problem in, in, in, in coordination is to get people to do things that they will only do if they know that other people are going to do them. one of the purposes of military medals is to persuade more, soldiers that if they engage in, a battle, that their fellow soldiers will do the same thing. So, if I'm a soldier and I'm trying to decide whether

09:00 - to charge up a hill against the enemy, it's critically important to me that my fellow soldiers are gonna do the same thing. And one of the functions that medals serve is that I, can assume that my fellow soldiers have seen the military medals that have been awarded, and the reasons for which they've been awarded, and that they will then, that mo motivate them to, to do so. And equally important, they will know that I have seen these, awards and medals

09:37 - and the reasons for which they award. And so, this creates a common understanding, that is known that there's a whole large body in what's called collective action. And, this phenomenon of creating this kind of mutual understanding among dis different participants in a collective action is known as creating what's called common knowledge. Honorific rewards are useful for all of the above, for incentives for legitimating collective actions,

10:09 - and for, creating common, common knowledge because they have communication power. And typically, of course, what, as you know, state honors usually have some kind of a, a medal or a badge, and some, in fact, some of them are named after that, like the Victoria Cross, for example. but even those that, that are not named after a, their, their badge or cross, like the order of the British Empire, will also have a badge associated with it.

10:40 - So all of the orders that we can talk about have a badge as sorted, associated with them. And the reason for this is because, and I have a long session in my book, in which I talk about the evolution of metals. And, and I'm not just talking about honor honors, as methods of communication, because they have, they have, they're highly effective of, of communication because they're easily transported and they're easily made visible.

11:08 - And, that fact is one of the reasons I argue, that, in metals, metals are commonly used with honors and, and indicates the importance of communication to honors discipline by power is simply mean, getting people to do what you want them to do in everyday life or in their jobs. it is clearly not separate from organizing collective action. And that's why I lumped the two of them together as population management.

11:37 - But I, nevertheless, I do think that if you approach the subject, not only in terms of organizing collective action, but in terms of creating discipline among populations, you understand it more. Now, there are various kinds of discipline, and, and this is important to understand, for our purposes. First of all, we can distinguish between external discipline and internal discipline. Obviously, external discipline is discipline that is imposed

12:09 - by someone on someone else. Your boss imposes discipline on you. your mother imposes discipline on you. internal, discipline is self-imposed. We do something because otherwise we would have a lower opinion of ourselves. the other distinction that we can make is between what is called corporate di discipline and individualized discipline. Corporate discipline refers to, to, to, discipline,

12:39 - in which people are made to do something, or equally important not to do something because of their membership in a group, because they would lose membership in a gross group, or they would lose the rewards of membership in a group, if they didn't, go along. It also refers to, making people feel shameful as members of a group. So this is what I call corporate discipline. Individualized discipline is discipline that is applied

13:11 - to an individual regardless of any groups that the person belongs and belongs to it. Now, for understanding state honors, a particular kind of individualized discipline is important, and it is called individualization. and I'm gonna explain that in a, in a, a moment. But, let me just go over first of all, the various ways in which, honorific rewards have been used for, enforcing all these, these different kinds of disciplines,

13:48 - and in creating discipline, discipline populations. And it's important to understand that individualization is, is, is not the same thing as individualism, though they affect one another. So what do we mean by individualism? individualism confer refer to a value, usually meaning belief in self autonomy. but individualism can also refer to construction of social reality, the belief that that societies are made up of individuals

14:20 - rather than groups, that society is an aggregation of individuals. and this has been a major change historically, towards, and, and even you can see the differences in societies in the world today, in the extent to which, in which people think that society is composed of an aggregation of individuals as opposed to groups. Anyway, the the point is that in order to understand this individualization, which I'm gonna talk about, it is necessary

14:55 - to have an individual construction of social reality in order for individualization to, operate. Okay? So what is individualization? Well, in the technical terms, if you look at that, if you went into the literature on this, you would say that, that it's, it's putting a, putting oneself and, and being placed in a system of negative and positive classification, negative and positive classification. Am I a bad person or a good person?

15:26 - am I a dishonest person or an honest, person? And so on and so forth. Now, what honors do is they contribute to the construction of these kinds of classifications. They lead people to evaluate themselves in terms of a positive and negative cons, construction. And, and they have forces them to relate themselves relative to the, those they know who have, who have received awards and the reasons for which they have, received them. And so forces them to ask themselves, well, how do I compare

16:07 - with this person that I see who's received a award? Now, it, it's important to understand that this doesn't mean that those who are handing out the awards want, want you, you to imitate these recipients. most of the time it would be impossible. It's impo it would be impossible for the average person or even a, a very, someone who's a very good athlete to, in, to, to imitate the recipients of athletic awards or, or great auditors, authors or politicians and, and, and, and, and so forth.

16:41 - So it's, it's typically a thing that's impossible to do. But I also suggest that it's not, necessarily what we, we want people to do that commanders and modern armies as, as opposed to medieval armies, commanders and modern honors, honors, armies do not want soldiers all trying to be heroes that would be chaotic. what they want them to do is to admire recipients of military honors, and most of all, to judge themselves by reference

17:14 - to the recipients of honors. This is individualization. First of all, explain that there are two types of status power. the first of all is the power of, of, of having status, of having other people respect you, because you're so-and-So because you went to a prestigious university, because you teach in a pres prestigious university, that's, that's, so that, that's the, the status of,

17:43 - that status power in the sense of, of having status. The other kind of status power is, is what I call status distribution power. it is that power to alter the status of others. Now, audiences and fans have status, distribution power. They can determine the status of celebrities. they can very quickly destroy the status of a, a celebrity. Obviously, that's not what I'm talking about in my book. I'm talking about specifically about, members

18:15 - of governments, who determine who gets honors and who doesn't. It's their status distributing power, that I am, talking about. And on the one hand, it's, it, it, it can be great to have such status power. You can, you can tend to, reward people that do the kind of things you think are important, and you can even reward people who do the kinds of things that you do, in that way raise your own status.

18:46 - But one of the main arguments of my book is that being a status distributor and an and awarding state honors is not as easy as it sounds. It has its challenges. And, and I quote in my book, a number of, of, people talking about, how, horrific a, a business it is. And the reason it has its challenges is because status is zero sum raising the status of one person or group lowers the status of someone else.

19:19 - And this is often not recognized. And, and, and, and, and, and, and yet, it is a major phenomenon. and zero sum. The zero sum problem with honors is exacerbated by the fact that they, they are, they're faced with two interrelated existing status structures. The first is a status structure of society is an existing status structure of society. In the 18th and 19th century was

19:48 - that aristocrats had higher status than non aristocrats. But today, military officers have higher status than non officers. People of European descent have higher status than those of non-European stent at descent women, and women have higher sta men have higher status than, than women and so on and so forth. And this was even more true in the 19th century. So there's a status structure of society that the status distributors, the, the,

20:13 - the people handing out awards have to worry about. They also have to worry about the status structure of the, of the awards themselves, because, you know, the different state awards all have a different, there's a different hierarchy of them. And typically, countries actually spell out very clearly what is the hierarchy of their awards. And then when any within, orders, at least, there are different ranks, British Order,

20:37 - the Bruche Empire has different ranks. And as a result of this, that, honors distributors have more difficulty, have great difficulty in awarding status honors, because the problem is that whenever they, make an award, they can offend, re the recipients of awards, they can offend those people who already have an award. They can even offend the person who, who, holds an award.

21:10 - let me, make a particular reference to the award of status to women. And the problem that this faced, it was, it was, was faced in the 19th century. One of the remarkable things about the state honors, the major state honors, is that during the 19th century when literally thousands of men were being awarded with state honors, virtually no women were awarded. Like, I'm not talking about a small number of women. I'm talking about almost none.

21:43 - We have records of two or three, which from modern standard point standpoint seems remarkable. So why was this? How, how could this happen? Well, there are a number of reasons. One, of course, is the obvious reason. Well, women were considered inferior. And well, and I wouldn't deny that some people believe this, but this doesn't explain the total absent absence of honors, for women in the 19th century.

22:10 - and indeed, I can give you examples of honors distributors who believed that when a woman did something exceptional, this was all the more reason to give her an award, because she was a woman. And yet she did such and such, such a, an example of this is it was that Lord Parmeston wanted to award Florence Nightingale with a prestigious medal, but he found that he couldn't. He said, no, no, you can't do that.

22:37 - So as a result, he didn't, he didn't do that. And, Florence Knight now did not get a major award until, the 20th century. and this, this wasn't because, Lord's Palmerson had, it was an anti-feminist in any, any way. He was a crusty old aristocrat, but he was constrained by the existing status structure, of, honors. Another reason that's been given for the lack of women in,

23:09 - in, honors is that they, didn't en generally engage in the kinds of activities, that were, awarded honors and, and so on and so forth. But the, the main reason I argue is that to have awarded honors to women would have threatened the existing status structure. It would've created embarrassment, discontent, and resentment, because men would have great trouble dealing with the fact that there was a woman

23:43 - who had an honor when they never had one, or a woman who had a harm honor with a higher status than their honor. And so this created, would create problems in society would cause disruption. and the status distributors being po political people who wanted to stay away from controversy, the best thing to do was to not give women any, honors. This, of course, created certain incon created inconsistencies, indeed, hypocrisies,

24:16 - because you had situations in which women were doing things that were clearly superior, what to what men were de doing, who were getting honors, and yet they weren't getting honors. and this was a bit like what happened with voting. One of the reasons, and I'm not saying it's the only reason, one of the reasons women eventually got the vote, because the situation in developed in which you had women with university education who weren't allowed to vote, well,

24:44 - well, with the expansion of voting, we, we had men with, with no education, their hardly education at all, who were voting. It was just, it was just so ridiculous that eventually, you know, the, the opponents of the women's franchise just generally had had to give in. And, and sort of the same thing was true with honors, although there was never really any opposition. But this was a major factor in the creation of the Order of the British Empire, was that,

25:10 - and it was, it was founded in a, an, an effort to, a reward those civilians who had contributed to the Great War, but weren't being recognized. Men were getting military wards, but women were getting, civilians weren't getting anything. And a major component of these civilians who were contributing to the, to the, the war in various ways were women. And as a result, the order of the British Empire was, there were women before it who had received honors

25:41 - and including the Legion of Honor. But, the, the order of the British Empire was the first one to award, women in large numbers, although, although even in it, they were underrepresented, but the numbers were really quite significant and broke away. And, and so if you try to, you're interested in, you know, when did state honors start being given to women, at least in, in Britain?

26:05 - The answer is with the order of the British, empire. Now, I don't wanna, overstate the, the stability of existing status, structures, obviously, existing status structures, can change over time. the aristocrat no longer have the kind same kind of status relative non aristocrats that they, used of, health. but what I would also like to point out is that even the honor system itself creates

26:45 - status instability. It's, it creates its own, status, instability. And that is because the problem that is, is, is faced by status, honors distributors, is that the danger of offending, people, because people can be offended if, they, see someone else getting a higher honor than they, have got. They can be offended, if they see people,

27:18 - getting the same honor or large numbers of people getting an honor that they have, why are all these people getting the same honor that I have? They didn't do anything like what I did. or they can actually be offended when they're an, when they're awarded an, an honor because they don't think it's high enough. And a good example of that is Horatio Nelson, who after, his victory

27:42 - and Nile, he, they felt necessary to give him reward. but it was a bit of a problem. And because of his social position, they thought that the best they could do for him, and the king was not even happy with this, that the best thing could do for him was to give him a barony. So Nelson, but Nelson was offended. And despite the king, he never wore that honor. He always went around with all the foreign honors

28:06 - that he got, that he got to show what other governments really, thought of him. Now, Nelson was, I'm not, I'm not disparaging Nelson. He's not unusual, far from it. I can find you just endless examples of people who have been offended at, at an honor that they were given. And many that have, have turned them down because they said, this honor isn't good enough for me. I deserve something higher. And sometimes, of course, they actually are succeed,

28:34 - because later on they get the higher honor. probably most, most of them, don't. But the, so this is why I make this general argument that not only do status structures in society change over time, but even the honor system itself creates its own instability, as a result of these, forces of, of what I call status competition. The main thing I would like you to take from my book I is that honors are a major, component of society.

29:07 - And, and, this is, true, to an extent of state honors. It is even more true of non-State Honors. I think as you're, well aware, the vast number of businesses and organizations and voluntary associations that all have their honors, I point in my boat, book that the American Sociological Association has no less than 200 annual awards. because each of the sort of subsections of

29:40 - The American Sociological Association, whenever a new subsection is formed, they, of course, they had to create an honor system. I like to tell the example of my dean, who created three honors in our faculty, because the, the faculty of arts had honors, and he didn't, he didn't think it was right that, that nobody, that they were walking around with honors and nobody one in our faculty had them. So they, it is a major part of our, our, our society.

30:12 - I also like to think that the, the, the, the, all the discussion that I provide of how honors came into being and evolved, that, in, in, and that my, my book also contributes to the understanding of the evolution of modern Europe and the social forces that led to it. 'cause I spent an enormous amount of, of, part of the book talking about not just state honors, about other things besides, state honors,

30:40 - but I may be just kidding myself.

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