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Diversity and Social Mobility in the UK legal profession

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View the page of I. Stephanie Boyce

I.Stephanie Boyce provides a current snapshot of diversity within the UK legal profession and how to drive inclusion going forward.

Dr. I.Stephanie Boyce (Hon. Causa) LLB (Hons), LLM, DipICArb, FCG, FRSA, FKC, Honorary Professor of Law, Former President of the Law Society of England and Wales.

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 1, 2024

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The generated text discusses concerns raised by a study from the American Bar Association regarding diversity and inclusion within the legal profession, particularly in England and Wales. It highlights several barriers contributing to inequality in education and access to quality learning opportunities, as well as financial obstacles that hinder diverse individuals from attending and completing law school.

Key issues mentioned include the persistent biases faced in hiring and retention, which disproportionately affect individuals from diverse backgrounds, particularly Black individuals, who may leave the profession earlier than their white counterparts. The speaker emphasizes that while there have been improvements in diversity statistics within the legal workforce, significant challenges remain, especially at the senior levels of the profession where diversity does not reflect society.

The speaker calls for a multifaceted approach to drive inclusion, advocating for systemic changes in recruitment practices, better understanding of the unique struggles faced by individuals from diverse backgrounds, and the importance of building supportive networks. Emphasis is placed on the need for commitment from leadership to address barriers and to create an inclusive workplace culture that fosters belonging.

Overall, the text stresses that true progress will be achieved by recognizing and dismantling the structural inequities that persist within the legal profession and ensuring that the profession is reflective of the communities it serves.

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Here are some key quotes extracted from the video:

1. **Concerns about Inequality:**
- "The study by the American Bar Association is concerning and suggests that there are several underlying issues that are contributing to this."

2. **Structural Barriers in Education:**
- "There is a growing inequality gap within education... some of that is due to disparities in funding for schools in various communities."

3. **Financial Barriers:**
- "Equally, there are financial barriers that further contribute to make attending and completing law school such a difficulty for those from diverse backgrounds."

4. **Bias and Its Impact:**
- "Despite efforts to address bias, it continues to be a significant barrier in both hiring and retention within the legal profession."

5. **Perception of Solicitors:**
- "There is still a perception as to what a solicitor should sound like, what they should look like."

6. **Diversity Statistics:**
- "Currently, 40% of barristers, 53% of solicitors... but the proportion of judges who are black remains stubbornly stuck at 1% since 2014."

7. **Barriers to Progression:**
- "As you start to move up through the profession... that is where the drop-off comes."

8. **Network and Mentorship:**
- "Build your network early, seek out mentors and sponsors... my career has been the success of my career... contribute to those in my network."

9. **Importance of Transparency:**
- "There is a lack of transparency as to how one gets to the senior parts of our profession."

10. **Driving Change:**
- "Driving inclusion in the legal profession... requires a multifaceted approach."

11. **Safe Work Environments:**
- "It’s about creating that safe space to ensure that individuals can have support networks."

12. **Leadership Responsibility:**
- "It's about the leadership as well being committed and accountable."

13. **Need for Systemic Change:**
- "It's about addressing those systemic barriers, both seen and unseen."

These quotes highlight the issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion within the legal profession, focusing on barriers faced by individuals from diverse backgrounds and the necessity for systemic changes to bridge these gaps.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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Can I say that the study

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by the American Bar Association is concerning

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and suggests that there are several underlying issues

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that are contributing to this.

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Firstly, structural barriers in education

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and access to good quality education.

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We have in here in the England

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and Wells in the United Kingdom.

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There is a growing inequality gap within education,

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good quality education,

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and some of that is due to disparities in funding

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for schools in various communities

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geographically and so forth.

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Um, and some individuals will,

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and in other countries will circumvent that by paying

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for education to educate their children privately.

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But that is not, an option

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that is available to everyone.

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Equally, there is financial barriers that further contribute

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to make attending

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and completing law school such a difficulty

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for those from diverse backgrounds.

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Not all, but some.

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Secondly, despite efforts to address bias, it continues

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to be a significant barrier in both hiring

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and retention within the legal profession.

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And this is something that I have spoken extensively about.

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There is still a perception as to

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what a solicitor should sound like,

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what they should look like.

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Um, and these biases often feed into hiring practices,

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career advancement, those who should get ahead,

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work environments, which ultimately creates challenges for

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some, from a diverse background, we know

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that those from a black background are twice as likely

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to leave the legal profession earlier,

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certainly the solicitor profession earlier than

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their white counterparts.

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And that is due to a number of reasons, either belonging,

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not fitting in, can't see the, the,

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the career progression, in front of them, mentorship

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and support networks, another contributor, cultural

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and environmental factors that feed into

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that retention challenges.

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Um, in terms of what I've spoken about,

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and there are so many more issues

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and challenges that feed into where we are, where we're at,

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and until we, address those issues, then

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what we are going to see is the profession is at risk

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of stagnation

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and regression until it further builds on its commitment

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to ensure that diversity

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and inclusion is at the forefront of,

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the profession and its commitment

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to increasing diversity within the profession.

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Currently, 40% of barristers, 53% of solicitors,

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77% are chartered legal executives,

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and 43% of all judges are female.

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Those are the latest statistics that were presented to us.

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And since 2014, the, the ethnic minority proportion

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of barristers increased from 13 to 17%

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Of solicitors from 15 to 19%,

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and of chartered legal executives from five to 11%,

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and from seven to 11% for all judges.

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But if I may,

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however, so that sounds very diverse, you know,

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up against the uk, the wider United Kingdom population.

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But if I may, I'm going

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to answer the question in the context

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of the judiciary, specifically.

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The most up-to-date judicial diversity statistics

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that are available for England

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and Wales, again, makes for uncomfortable reading.

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It tells us that the proportion of judges

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who are black within England

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and Wales remain stubbornly stuck at 1%

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since 2014.

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That figure of 1% has remained unchanged

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of 3,667 Court judges, as

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of the 1st of April this year,

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20 24, 41, are black.

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We know that the applicant pool

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of those from a black background is small,

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and we also know that those who are eligible

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to apply are not applying.

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And those are factors

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that the judicial appointments commission

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and the judiciary must focus on More must be done

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to better understand the strategy

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and activities that are being deployed

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to better support those from a diverse background.

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And I'm keen to support where I can,

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but equally, if we are, if the judiciary is

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to command the respect

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and confidence of the public it serves,

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it must be reflective of that public.

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For me, one of the biggest issues was

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that financial barrier coming from a low socioeconomic

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background, from a single parent household,

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first generation British.

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I just did not have the financial currency,

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the social currency, to tap into, to feed into,

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to support my endeavor, to progress

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through the legal profession.

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And we are seeing much of that feeding into the pipeline.

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So what we know here in England

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and Wales, the United Kingdom, what we know is that at the,

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the junior end of the profession, whether that's solicitors,

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whether that's barristers

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or the judiciary, what we know is it's very diverse.

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But as you start to move up, through the profession

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and see certainly at the senior parts of the profession,

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that is where the drop off comes.

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Um, and we are not seeing that, that progression,

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that diversity across the piece is just not being replicated

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at the tops of our profession.

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So to give you an example with the solicitor profession,

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there was a study that was done, recently

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and, come couple of years ago called,

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the 1% study by extent.

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And what that study talked talks about is that

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of 13,300

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and something plus partners in firms of 10 partners

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or more, only 90

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Of their partners are black.

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Um, that figure gets a bit bit better if you then add in

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other ethnic minority groups within that figure,

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but it is still not reflective of the solicitor profession.

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And those are the challenges that we have in terms of

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that pipeline.

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So not only do we need to address,

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and that's one of the things I speak about,

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is there is no issue in recruiting

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diverse colleagues into law schools or into universities

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or into the profession, but the drop off

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because individuals for whatever reason,

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and that's whether you come, that's whether

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or not you are, you know,

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you come from a diverse background in terms

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of your sexuality, in terms of your ability,

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whether you have a disability or not.

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Um, you know, female gender, race, so forth.

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What we are seeing is we're not seeing

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that progression replicated at the tops of our profession

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and more must be done to address those issues,

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that segmentation, that drop off.

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Because as I alluded to

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before, we are at risk of not having a legal profession

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that truly reflects the society it's seeking to serve.

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And we are at risk of losing the confidence of the public

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because the public will look at a profession

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and will see that it's not reflective of the wider public.

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There are a number of issues that we know,

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we know about career advancement,

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and of course I've mentioned that in terms of people

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who recruit in their own likeness.

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We know also that time is going to be

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as the judiciary will tell us, that actually time is needed

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to unpick some of those practices that were done previously.

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Um, and as people retire, leave the profession, then

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that will create space for a more wider, more broader,

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diverse group of candidates to come forward.

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Um, in terms of age demographics

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and as people move on, we know also those financial barriers

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that I spoke about, and progression.

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If people can't see, so for instance,

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to give you an example, when I was making forging my way

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through, to become an officeholder, I was a, you know,

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I was told various things,

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but if somebody had said to me, Stephanie, you've got

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to sit here for 12 plus years

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before we will even consider you for the role

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of deputy vice president, vice president,

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let alone president, I would've probably looked at them

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and thought, I haven't got 12 years to sit here.

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You know, there are other places I can go

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and I can contribute, use my expertise or skills

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and make a difference.

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And that is what we're seeing in some law firms

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that opaqueness around what is required in order

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to become a partner

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and how long it takes you to become a partner.

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So I've heard anything from 12 to 15 years, as well

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as a lack of transparency as to how one gets

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to the senior parts of our profession.

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And as I say, and many others say,

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that is just not good enough.

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One of the things I did, and I'm still doing it,

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is building that resilience and that confidence.

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Yes, you know, I come across as very confident now,

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but I'm still walking into spaces.

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I'm still walking into rooms

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where I might be the only person of color in that room.

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And I think what we have to do,

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and in fact it's not what I think, it's what I know, what

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what we have to do is we have to

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take a look at, as I say, those individuals,

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we put in positions of power and influence.

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And it's not just the legal profession that does this.

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We see this in politics.

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What we seem to be suggesting to people, it's,

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if you take politics in this country, the idea

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to become a leader is that you are.

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So, it's not about natural leadership

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because if you want to become prime minister

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of this country, there is, you know, you have

09:42.605 --> 09:44.765
to join the party, you have to work your way up

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and so forth and so forth.

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And what we know from the last few years is that actually

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that does not produce some of, the best leaders.

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Whereas natural leaders, like perhaps dare I say myself,

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and others who are not in those spaces,

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are not given the opportunity to showcase their talent,

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their expertise, their aptitude and skills,

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because of those process processes

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that either we don't know about or hinder our progress.

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So one of the things for me becoming precedent was it

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allowed me to walk through doors

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that I didn't even know were there invited into rooms I

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would never have been invited into.

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And far too often that is the case

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for many those unwritten rules, those unspoken codes

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of conduct, quote unquote, that don't allow tac talent,

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natural talent, and leadership to thrive.

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And that's what we have to take a look at.

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Build your network early.

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That was a piece of advice

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that I was given early in my career.

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And I was told to network, network, network.

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I'm still networking.

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So build your network early, seek out mentors and sponsors.

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My career has been, the success of my career.

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I contribute to those in my network advocates

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who advocated for me, known

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and unknown, who I didn't know, stay informed

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and continue learning every day.

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Must be a learning day that, you know, the moment you stop

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for me, the moment you, you might as well give up every day.

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You must be learning something new

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and be strategic in your career path.

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You know, have a five year plan as I do,

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but ultimately keep pushing, persevere

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until something happens.

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Don't give up the targets that firms businesses,

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'cause it's not just firms, you know,

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lawyers are found everywhere in-house as I was,

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for many years of my career, within academia

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and so forth, that they are set in targets

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and that there is momentum

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and real commitment behind these targets.

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So they're not just aspirational or they're not just there

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For, impact as to, you know, trying

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to grab, grab headlines.

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What we know is, is that, those from a, a, a,

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a low socioeconomic status, as I was, find it difficult

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to get into our profession.

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And as I say, some of that is repeated.

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Um, I've repeated, earlier in terms

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of those financial barriers, those social barriers

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that prohibits those trying to get into our profession.

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We who hold the influence, the power

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of the gateway, and that's hr.

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We often do not speak about the, the HR team, those

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who are doing the recruiting,

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who are doing the sifting, what they're looking for.

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They equally should receive training, as to

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what you know they're looking for,

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because not all of us would've been,

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and we know that the legal profession has a certain penchant

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towards private education, 23%

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and 23%

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of the solicitor profession has been privately educated up

12:52.575 --> 12:54.935
against 7% of the wider UK population.

12:55.555 --> 12:57.015
I'm pleased to report that that figure

12:57.675 --> 12:59.375
is slightly decreasing.

12:59.835 --> 13:02.695
Um, but it should not be a determinant as to

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how far you can go, whether you've been privately educated

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or state educated, whether you've gone

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to a Russell Group University

13:08.995 --> 13:12.215
or whether you have gone to, a new university.

13:12.715 --> 13:15.175
We should be looking at the characteristics, the,

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the capability, of those individuals individually

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as to what the cont what do they bring to our organization,

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how can they contribute?

13:26.155 --> 13:29.135
And, and some of those other things that we use

13:29.155 --> 13:32.175
as determinants as to career progression, such as

13:32.175 --> 13:34.255
how many times we might go out socially

13:34.595 --> 13:37.295
or how many times we might, belong

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to a particular group club or so forth.

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There are a number of reasons, whether that's cultural,

13:42.015 --> 13:45.335
religious, or a number of other reasons, responsibilities,

13:45.475 --> 13:47.135
you know, for dependence and others as

13:47.135 --> 13:49.375
to why individuals don't necessarily won't,

13:49.465 --> 13:52.415
can't necessarily go to these social events.

13:52.515 --> 13:53.575
And we must look at those.

13:53.595 --> 13:56.695
We must look at the whole ecosystem as to

13:56.695 --> 13:59.415
what is holding individuals back, why we are not getting

13:59.685 --> 14:03.895
that replication of diversity, that the wider public,

14:04.355 --> 14:05.975
serves.

14:06.215 --> 14:07.655
I mean, driving inclusion,

14:07.675 --> 14:09.575
in the legal profession and wider society.

14:09.575 --> 14:12.255
The broader workplace in society requires a

14:12.255 --> 14:13.455
multifaceted approach.

14:14.035 --> 14:15.975
And there are a number of strategies

14:15.995 --> 14:18.815
and actions that can be deployed to help towards this.

14:19.205 --> 14:21.975
Such as, as when we spoke about inclusive recruitment,

14:21.975 --> 14:25.535
hiring practices, ensuring that hiring panels are diverse,

14:26.035 --> 14:27.335
you know, blind recruitment,

14:27.575 --> 14:29.535
although I'm not a fan of blind recruitment,

14:29.535 --> 14:31.975
because I do think there are a number, it, I,

14:32.045 --> 14:33.255
it's not a hundred percent proof.

14:33.675 --> 14:36.255
Um, and there are a number of ways

14:36.255 --> 14:39.775
that one can manipulate that system to ensure

14:39.775 --> 14:41.855
that actually you know, who the candidate is.

14:42.395 --> 14:46.535
Um, so for me it's about training.

14:46.805 --> 14:49.295
It's about creating that safe space to ensure

14:49.325 --> 14:50.855
that individuals can

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Have support networks,

14:52.445 --> 14:54.285
groups in within the work environment

14:54.285 --> 14:55.405
that they can tap into,

14:55.675 --> 14:57.605
that they can share their lived experience.

14:57.955 --> 15:01.245
It's about leadership, not only from, the top

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as it permeates its way down,

15:03.385 --> 15:05.565
but one of the things when I was president

15:05.565 --> 15:07.605
and we were going out and we were speaking to people,

15:08.565 --> 15:11.285
actually some of the biggest driving forces

15:11.665 --> 15:14.485
and change we saw started at the bottom

15:15.145 --> 15:16.405
and worked its way up.

15:16.785 --> 15:20.765
So for instance, when individuals were talking about change,

15:21.235 --> 15:23.725
what I noticed was when I spoke to senior partners,

15:23.785 --> 15:27.085
it was dependent on them, distilling that informa

15:27.085 --> 15:29.085
that information downwards,

15:29.275 --> 15:33.765
whereas the push from bottom upwards ensured that actually

15:34.035 --> 15:36.565
that driver was a lot more forceful

15:36.985 --> 15:40.325
and a lot more, impactful.

15:40.905 --> 15:43.445
So, so it's about the leadership

15:43.445 --> 15:45.565
as well being committed and accountable.

15:45.875 --> 15:48.565
It's about addressing those systemic barriers.

15:48.785 --> 15:50.565
As I say, seen and unseen.

15:50.955 --> 15:53.325
It's about promoting an inclusive

15:54.145 --> 15:57.565
and a belonging a, a workplace where individuals belong.

15:57.625 --> 16:00.085
And that's one of the reasons why we know those

16:00.085 --> 16:01.165
from a diverse background.

16:01.435 --> 16:05.565
It's that lack of inclusiveness, that lack of belonging,

16:05.945 --> 16:08.445
why individuals do not stay in the profession.

16:08.785 --> 16:12.005
But all of those things taken together, building alliances

16:12.005 --> 16:13.405
and partnerships and so forth.

16:13.825 --> 16:15.245
And that commitment

16:15.745 --> 16:19.125
and continuous effort is what is going to

16:19.805 --> 16:20.845
showcase our profession

16:21.385 --> 16:25.245
and be inviting for others to want to come in to it,

16:25.635 --> 16:28.565
stay in our profession and thrive in our profession.

00:00 - Can I say that the study by the American Bar Association is concerning and suggests that there are several underlying issues that are contributing to this. Firstly, structural barriers in education and access to good quality education.

00:16 - We have in here in the England and Wells in the United Kingdom. There is a growing inequality gap within education, good quality education, and some of that is due to disparities in funding for schools in various communities geographically and so forth. and some individuals will, and in other countries will circumvent that by paying for education to educate their children privately.

00:43 - But that is not, an option that is available to everyone. Equally, there is financial barriers that further contribute to make attending and completing law school such a difficulty for those from diverse backgrounds. Not all, but some. Secondly, despite efforts to address bias, it continues to be a significant barrier in both hiring and retention within the legal profession.

01:10 - And this is something that I have spoken extensively about. There is still a perception as to what a solicitor should sound like, what they should look like. and these biases often feed into hiring practices, career advancement, those who should get ahead, work environments, which ultimately creates challenges for some, from a diverse background, we know that those from a black background are twice as likely to leave the legal profession earlier,

01:42 - certainly the solicitor profession earlier than their white counterparts. And that is due to a number of reasons, either belonging, not fitting in, can't see the, the, the career progression, in front of them, mentorship and support networks, another contributor, cultural and environmental factors that feed into that retention challenges. in terms of what I've spoken about, and there are so many more issues

02:10 - and challenges that feed into where we are, where we're at, and until we, address those issues, then what we are going to see is the profession is at risk of stagnation and regression until it further builds on its commitment to ensure that diversity and inclusion is at the forefront of, the profession and its commitment to increasing diversity within the profession. Currently, 40% of barristers, 53% of solicitors,

02:40 - 77% are chartered legal executives, and 43% of all judges are female. Those are the latest statistics that were presented to us. And since 2014, the, the ethnic minority proportion of barristers increased from 13 to 17% Of solicitors from 15 to 19%, and of chartered legal executives from five to 11%, and from seven to 11% for all judges. But if I may, however, so that sounds very diverse, you know,

03:13 - up against the uk, the wider United Kingdom population. But if I may, I'm going to answer the question in the context of the judiciary, specifically. The most up-to-date judicial diversity statistics that are available for England and Wales, again, makes for uncomfortable reading. It tells us that the proportion of judges who are black within England and Wales remain stubbornly stuck at 1%

03:41 - since 2014. That figure of 1% has remained unchanged of 3,667 Court judges, as of the 1st of April this year, 20 24, 41, are black. We know that the applicant pool of those from a black background is small, and we also know that those who are eligible to apply are not applying. And those are factors

04:08 - that the judicial appointments commission and the judiciary must focus on More must be done to better understand the strategy and activities that are being deployed to better support those from a diverse background. And I'm keen to support where I can, but equally, if we are, if the judiciary is to command the respect and confidence of the public it serves, it must be reflective of that public.

04:35 - For me, one of the biggest issues was that financial barrier coming from a low socioeconomic background, from a single parent household, first generation British. I just did not have the financial currency, the social currency, to tap into, to feed into, to support my endeavor, to progress through the legal profession. And we are seeing much of that feeding into the pipeline. So what we know here in England

05:03 - and Wales, the United Kingdom, what we know is that at the, the junior end of the profession, whether that's solicitors, whether that's barristers or the judiciary, what we know is it's very diverse. But as you start to move up, through the profession and see certainly at the senior parts of the profession, that is where the drop off comes. and we are not seeing that, that progression, that diversity across the piece is just not being replicated at the tops of our profession.

05:35 - So to give you an example with the solicitor profession, there was a study that was done, recently and, come couple of years ago called, the 1% study by extent. And what that study talked talks about is that of 13,300 and something plus partners in firms of 10 partners or more, only 90 Of their partners are black. that figure gets a bit bit better if you then add in

06:04 - other ethnic minority groups within that figure, but it is still not reflective of the solicitor profession. And those are the challenges that we have in terms of that pipeline. So not only do we need to address, and that's one of the things I speak about, is there is no issue in recruiting diverse colleagues into law schools or into universities or into the profession, but the drop off because individuals for whatever reason,

06:32 - and that's whether you come, that's whether or not you are, you know, you come from a diverse background in terms of your sexuality, in terms of your ability, whether you have a disability or not. you know, female gender, race, so forth. What we are seeing is we're not seeing that progression replicated at the tops of our profession and more must be done to address those issues, that segmentation, that drop off.

06:56 - Because as I alluded to before, we are at risk of not having a legal profession that truly reflects the society it's seeking to serve. And we are at risk of losing the confidence of the public because the public will look at a profession and will see that it's not reflective of the wider public. There are a number of issues that we know, we know about career advancement, and of course I've mentioned that in terms of people who recruit in their own likeness.

07:24 - We know also that time is going to be as the judiciary will tell us, that actually time is needed to unpick some of those practices that were done previously. and as people retire, leave the profession, then that will create space for a more wider, more broader, diverse group of candidates to come forward. in terms of age demographics and as people move on, we know also those financial barriers that I spoke about, and progression. If people can't see, so for instance,

07:57 - to give you an example, when I was making forging my way through, to become an officeholder, I was a, you know, I was told various things, but if somebody had said to me, Stephanie, you've got to sit here for 12 plus years before we will even consider you for the role of deputy vice president, vice president, let alone president, I would've probably looked at them and thought, I haven't got 12 years to sit here. You know, there are other places I can go

08:25 - and I can contribute, use my expertise or skills and make a difference. And that is what we're seeing in some law firms that opaqueness around what is required in order to become a partner and how long it takes you to become a partner. So I've heard anything from 12 to 15 years, as well as a lack of transparency as to how one gets to the senior parts of our profession. And as I say, and many others say,

08:53 - that is just not good enough. One of the things I did, and I'm still doing it, is building that resilience and that confidence. Yes, you know, I come across as very confident now, but I'm still walking into spaces. I'm still walking into rooms where I might be the only person of color in that room. And I think what we have to do, and in fact it's not what I think, it's what I know, what what we have to do is we have to

09:17 - take a look at, as I say, those individuals, we put in positions of power and influence. And it's not just the legal profession that does this. We see this in politics. What we seem to be suggesting to people, it's, if you take politics in this country, the idea to become a leader is that you are. So, it's not about natural leadership because if you want to become prime minister of this country, there is, you know, you have

09:42 - to join the party, you have to work your way up and so forth and so forth. And what we know from the last few years is that actually that does not produce some of, the best leaders. Whereas natural leaders, like perhaps dare I say myself, and others who are not in those spaces, are not given the opportunity to showcase their talent, their expertise, their aptitude and skills, because of those process processes that either we don't know about or hinder our progress.

10:14 - So one of the things for me becoming precedent was it allowed me to walk through doors that I didn't even know were there invited into rooms I would never have been invited into. And far too often that is the case for many those unwritten rules, those unspoken codes of conduct, quote unquote, that don't allow tac talent, natural talent, and leadership to thrive. And that's what we have to take a look at. Build your network early.

10:43 - That was a piece of advice that I was given early in my career. And I was told to network, network, network. I'm still networking. So build your network early, seek out mentors and sponsors. My career has been, the success of my career. I contribute to those in my network advocates who advocated for me, known and unknown, who I didn't know, stay informed and continue learning every day.

11:11 - Must be a learning day that, you know, the moment you stop for me, the moment you, you might as well give up every day. You must be learning something new and be strategic in your career path. You know, have a five year plan as I do, but ultimately keep pushing, persevere until something happens. Don't give up the targets that firms businesses, 'cause it's not just firms, you know, lawyers are found everywhere in-house as I was,

11:38 - for many years of my career, within academia and so forth, that they are set in targets and that there is momentum and real commitment behind these targets. So they're not just aspirational or they're not just there For, impact as to, you know, trying to grab, grab headlines. What we know is, is that, those from a, a, a, a low socioeconomic status, as I was, find it difficult to get into our profession.

12:07 - And as I say, some of that is repeated. I've repeated, earlier in terms of those financial barriers, those social barriers that prohibits those trying to get into our profession. We who hold the influence, the power of the gateway, and that's hr. We often do not speak about the, the HR team, those who are doing the recruiting, who are doing the sifting, what they're looking for. They equally should receive training, as to

12:35 - what you know they're looking for, because not all of us would've been, and we know that the legal profession has a certain penchant towards private education, 23% and 23% of the solicitor profession has been privately educated up against 7% of the wider UK population. I'm pleased to report that that figure is slightly decreasing. but it should not be a determinant as to

13:02 - how far you can go, whether you've been privately educated or state educated, whether you've gone to a Russell Group University or whether you have gone to, a new university. We should be looking at the characteristics, the, the capability, of those individuals individually as to what the cont what do they bring to our organization, how can they contribute? And, and some of those other things that we use as determinants as to career progression, such as

13:32 - how many times we might go out socially or how many times we might, belong to a particular group club or so forth. There are a number of reasons, whether that's cultural, religious, or a number of other reasons, responsibilities, you know, for dependence and others as to why individuals don't necessarily won't, can't necessarily go to these social events. And we must look at those. We must look at the whole ecosystem as to

13:56 - what is holding individuals back, why we are not getting that replication of diversity, that the wider public, serves. I mean, driving inclusion, in the legal profession and wider society. The broader workplace in society requires a multifaceted approach. And there are a number of strategies and actions that can be deployed to help towards this. Such as, as when we spoke about inclusive recruitment,

14:21 - hiring practices, ensuring that hiring panels are diverse, you know, blind recruitment, although I'm not a fan of blind recruitment, because I do think there are a number, it, I, it's not a hundred percent proof. and there are a number of ways that one can manipulate that system to ensure that actually you know, who the candidate is. so for me it's about training. It's about creating that safe space to ensure

14:49 - that individuals can Have support networks, groups in within the work environment that they can tap into, that they can share their lived experience. It's about leadership, not only from, the top as it permeates its way down, but one of the things when I was president and we were going out and we were speaking to people, actually some of the biggest driving forces

15:11 - and change we saw started at the bottom and worked its way up. So for instance, when individuals were talking about change, what I noticed was when I spoke to senior partners, it was dependent on them, distilling that informa that information downwards, whereas the push from bottom upwards ensured that actually that driver was a lot more forceful and a lot more, impactful. So, so it's about the leadership

15:43 - as well being committed and accountable. It's about addressing those systemic barriers. As I say, seen and unseen. It's about promoting an inclusive and a belonging a, a workplace where individuals belong. And that's one of the reasons why we know those from a diverse background. It's that lack of inclusiveness, that lack of belonging, why individuals do not stay in the profession. But all of those things taken together, building alliances

16:12 - and partnerships and so forth. And that commitment and continuous effort is what is going to showcase our profession and be inviting for others to want to come in to it, stay in our profession and thrive in our profession.

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