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Lincoln and the Jews

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View the page of Jonathan Sarna

Jonathan Sarna argues that Abraham Lincoln’s warm relationships with Jews not only broadened Lincoln personally, but, in effect, broadened America.

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 28, 2024

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In this interview with historian Jonathan Sarna, he discusses his book about Abraham Lincoln's relationship with the Jewish community. Sarna’s interest in this topic was sparked after writing about Ulysses S. Grant's efforts to expel Jews during the Civil War, which prompted him to explore Lincoln's interactions with Jews, their growing presence in America, and their role in the Civil War.

Sarna collaborates with Benjamin Chappelle, who has a collection of documents related to Lincoln and the Jews. These documents reveal Lincoln's connections and sensitivity toward Jewish individuals, showcasing a broad range of Jewish friends and associates he had throughout his life. Sarna notes that Lincoln's understanding of Jews was shaped by personal relationships rather than abstract notions.

He touches on specific incidents, such as Lincoln's involvement in enabling Jewish chaplains to serve in the military, which demonstrates his fairness and empathy. The discussion includes Lincoln's prompt reversal of Ulysses S. Grant's order to expel Jews from military areas, reflecting his principled stance against scapegoating a group for the actions of a few.

Overall, Sarna argues that Lincoln's policies and rhetoric evolved to be more inclusive, recognizing and accommodating the Jewish community during a time when Jews faced significant discrimination worldwide. Throughout the conversation, Sarna emphasizes the importance of understanding the nuances of Lincoln's relationships with Jews, framing them as both practical and principled.

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Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Lincoln's Relationship with the Jewish Community**: The speaker discusses Abraham Lincoln's unique and evolving relationship with American Jews, highlighting the significance of his interactions, which were shaped by his personal acquaintance with Jewish individuals, especially during a time when Jews were often marginalized.

2. **Historical Convideo of American Jews**: The video describes the demographic shift of the American Jewish community around the time of Lincoln, with Jewish populations increasing significantly during the mid-19th century, providing a backdrop for Lincoln's sensitivity and engagement with Jewish issues.

3. **Lincoln’s Advocacy for Jewish Rights**: A crucial point is Lincoln's intervention against Ulysses S. Grant's orders to expel Jews from certain war zones, demonstrating his commitment to counteracting prejudice and ensuring fairness for the Jewish community within the military convideo.

4. **Newly Discovered Documents**: The speaker mentions Benjamin Chappelle's collection of documents relating to Lincoln and the Jews, which reveals a broader narrative about Lincoln's knowledge and friendships with Jewish individuals, thus contributing to a more comprehensive understanding of his presidency.

5. **Lincoln’s Inclusivity and Rhetoric**: The video discusses how Lincoln's rhetoric evolved over time, becoming more inclusive of diverse religious groups. His speeches, such as the Gettysburg Address, reflect an awareness of the pluralistic nature of American society and an effort to avoid exclusionary Christian language, thus acknowledging the contributions of Jewish soldiers and the broader Jewish community.

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Here are some key quotes extracted from the video you :

1. **On Lincoln's Sensitivity to Jews:**
- "And that sensitized me to Lincoln's unusual role with American, uh, Jews."

2. **Collaboration with Benjamin Chappelle:**
- "Before long, uh, that we were working on that very book because, um, the documents told, uh, a broader story of Lincoln's, um, knowledge of Jews, interactions with Jews, uh, sensitivity..."

3. **Historical Convideo of American Jews:**
- "Really, uh, a moment when you began to have, uh, an American Jewish community of size, about 150,000 as distinct from just 20 years earlier, when hard to imagine was more than 15,000."

4. **Rabbi as a Political Ally:**
- "Lincoln had bad feet. And, uh, Issachar, uh, Zachery, uh, was his full name... was, uh, really, uh, a clever man in terms of knowing how to put people at ease."

5. **Influence on Jewish Voting:**
- "Lincoln was especially eager to attract Jews who, uh, had fled to the United States after the failure of the 1848 Revolutions... there was a sense that this was, uh, a prime population for, uh, him to attract."

6. **The Role of Chaplains:**
- "When Lincoln learned that, uh, the chaplaincy in the American army was restricted to Christians... he became personally involved."

7. **On the Expulsion of Jews during Grant's Leadership:**
- "Grant had persuaded himself that smugglers and Jews were synonyms... he thought was to, uh, expel Jews and ban them from his war zone."

8. **Lincoln's Reversal of Grant's Order:**
- "Lincoln reverses the order, apparently on the spot... Lincoln says, if such an order has been issued, it is hereby revoked."

9. **Lincoln's Perspective on Prejudice:**
- "I don't like to hear a group or, uh, a class persecuted on a count of a few sinners."

10. **Private versus Public Lincoln:**
- "In Lincoln's case, the private is as good as the public."

These quotes showcase Lincoln's relationships with Jews, his insights on prejudice and inclusion, as well as historical convideo and anecdotes that illustrate his character and leadership style.

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Here are some similar articles that explore themes related to Abraham Lincoln's relationship with the Jewish community, historical perspectives on Jews in America, and the broader convideo of Jewish history during the Civil War:

1. **“Lincoln and the Jews: A History” by Jonathan Sarna** - This article provides an overview of the historical interactions between Abraham Lincoln and the Jewish community, detailing Lincoln’s efforts to support Jews during a time of widespread discrimination and prejudice.

2. **“The Role of Jews in the Civil War”** - This piece examines the contributions of Jewish Americans during the Civil War, including military service, and discusses how Jewish soldiers and communities navigated their identities amidst the conflict.

3. **“Ulysses S. Grant and the Question of Jewish Expulsion”** - This article analyzes Ulysses S. Grant's controversial General Order No. 11, which expelled Jews from certain areas during the war, and discusses how Lincoln's response highlighted his commitment to religious tolerance.

4. **“The Changing Face of Jewish American Identity during the 19th Century”** - This article explores the evolution of Jewish identity in America from the 18th to the 19th centuries, with a focus on how relationships with political leaders like Lincoln shaped the community's status.

5. **“Lincoln’s Religious Beliefs and His Approach to Minorities”** - A deeper dive into Lincoln's religious views, this article discusses how his faith influenced his attitudes towards different minority groups, including Jews, during his presidency.

6. **“Jewish Chaplains in the Civil War: A Study of Faith and Service”** - Focusing on the involvement of Jewish chaplains, this article reflects on the broader implications of religious representation and support during wartime, relating it to Lincoln’s efforts.

7. **“Jewish Contributions to American Politics: From Lincoln to Today”** - This piece traces Jewish political engagement from the Civil War era to the present, highlighting key figures and milestones, including Lincoln’s inclusive policies.

These articles provide convideo and deeper insights into Jonathan Sarna's discussions regarding Lincoln and the Jewish community, and are excellent resources for further exploration of these historical themes.

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I had written a book, on Ulysses as Grant

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and, his, effort

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to expel Jews, Ms.

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Warzone, that Abraham Lincoln then overturned.

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And that sensitized me

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to Lincoln's unusual role

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with American, Jews.

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And, I was giving a lecture on that earlier book.

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And, Benjamin Chappelle was in the audience,

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and he said, you know, I have

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a collection of documents about

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Abraham Lincoln and the Jews.

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I always wanted to have a historian

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really look at those documents and work with me on a book.

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And before long, that we were working on

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that very book

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because, the documents told,

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a broader story of Lincoln's,

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knowledge of Jews, interactions with Jews,

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sensitivity,

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and of course also the role of Jews,

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in the American Civil War.

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Um, really, a moment when you began to have,

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an American Jewish community of size,

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about 150,000

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as distinct from just 20 years earlier, when hard

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to imagine was more than 15,000.

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And so you're also talking about an era of great change,

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in the United States when, Jews become

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what today we would call a visible minority.

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And more and more people are encountering them.

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Benjamin Chappelle had been collecting for some years

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document connecting,

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Lincoln and the Jews.

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Uh, some of them are absolutely spectacular.

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Uh, we have not yet appointed a Hebrew,

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Lincoln says, I call it jokingly, the first,

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a document of, affirmative action

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in American, history.

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Um, a sense, that

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that should be done.

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Um, other, documents simply attesting

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to the fact that he had a very wide range

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of Jewish friends and associates.

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And indeed, at a certain point, we commissioned

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a chart of, which is

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close associates further out.

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And there's certainly no American president to Lincoln's Day

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who had so many, Jewish

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friends and associates.

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And that clearly shaped him.

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When he heard the word Jew,

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he didn't think about someone

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who lived at the time of Jesus.

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He thought about people he knew, and that's a tremendous

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and vital, difference.

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Um, and, then,

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there were many people mentioned in standard

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books on Abraham Lincoln, more books on Lincoln

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and, practically, anybody.

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Um, but people had not paid attention,

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to the fact that some of these folks,

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were Jewish.

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And that suddenly, put the whole

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story into a, a somewhat,

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different perspective.

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Uh, but there's certainly, cases

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where really brand new materials.

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We talk at some length about a man named Issachar.

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Um, and, thanks

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to new materials, some of which Mr.

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Chappelle, owned, we were able

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to paint a much fuller picture of this

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curious character who was, what they used

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to call a carist.

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Today, the word would be podiatrist,

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not usually a central character.

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But Lincoln had bad feet.

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And, Iscar, Issachar wa Issachar Zachery,

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was his full name, Issachar Zachery,

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was, really,

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very, a clever man in terms of knowing how

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to put people at ease

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and how to, befriend them.

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And, his role turned out,

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to be extremely interesting, for a time he's a spy,

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for Lincoln, and certainly someone,

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who helps, Lincoln,

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politically, trying to win

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for him, the Jewish vote.

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And again, there, we think

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of the Jewish vote as something only

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Spoken about in the 20th century.

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Uh, but it turns out that the first people who

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Thought about

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Jews as a group, how their interests,

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where their interests lie,

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Uh, and The fact that

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They might be cultivated as an interest

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Group that really were, was, Lincoln

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and his associates,

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One of whom was himself Jewish.

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And, Uh, part of Republican

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Strategy for the Second edition that we're

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Now bringing out, that

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includes what I believe to be the very first,

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kind a campaign poster

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That says Jews should

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Vote for Lincoln.

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Um, which is amazing

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That it survived.

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Um, and, that's

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for the 1864

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Election. Lincoln's

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second term, he thought he wouldn't win,

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But he of course did. And,

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Uh, big efforts were made to get Jews to vote for Lincoln.

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And We talk a little bit

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About, that New

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Document, which is one of a variety

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of, of documents,

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Uh, that are new there. Uh,

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There's a new Document

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As well, dealing with a doctor,

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who first reached, who,

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Who was called in to try and save Lincoln after,

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Uh, he was Shot and

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Some understanding

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Of why he was called in and where he lived,

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and he was close by the theater

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And so on. But

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again, the whole Jewish role

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in Lincoln's

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Career, Uh, from

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A very Young age when, he's in Illinois

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And Has a good

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Friend who Is,

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like him, a kind

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Of itinerant Lawyer, all the way through,

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his dying day, is really quite

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interesting when you consider that the middle

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of the 19th century,

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is a time when in much of the world, Jews were

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A deeply persecuted second class

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Citizens. You know,

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the whole story would be

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unimaginable if we were talking not about Lincoln,

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but about, I don't know, czar Alexander.

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Uh, at the same time, there's little doubt,

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that back, in Illinois, you know,

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these were just colleagues

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and, he, came

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to respect, Jews.

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He, he met to, this is also a time

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when the clothing industry in the United States was

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being transformed.

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Jews played a huge role in,

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that industry, which of course is going

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to be advanced by the Civil War,

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and, the need for uniforms.

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But long before then, Lincoln,

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in Illinois would use Jewish clothing store

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as Jewish tailor and so on.

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That's matter of fact.

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Um, when it came to politics,

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you know, then I thought, I think there were certain

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policies that it was hoped would,

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approve, attractive,

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to Jews.

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Uh, Lincoln was especially eager

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to attract Jews who, had fled

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to the United States

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after the failure of the 1848 Revolutions.

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Um, they shared many of his values,

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and, there was a sense that this was,

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a prime population for,

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him to attract.

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Uh, but there was a basic fairness.

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So, to give an example, when Lincoln learned

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that, the

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chaplaincy in the American army was restricted

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to Christians, and that a,

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a Jew could not be a chaplain, even though you had more

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and more Jewish soldiers, it's clear

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that he became personally involved, especially

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after one of the men who had been elected.

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Really in those days, they elect, units,

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elected chaplains couldn't serve

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because he wasn't a Christian.

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And Lincoln played a role in changing,

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those laws and policies that wasn't so easy to do.

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Uh, and there I think it was something

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that he deeply cared about.

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Similarly, and I admit, that not everybody

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agrees, but I argue in the book that a very well known

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phrase, the Gettysburg address, un,

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this nation under God, the fact

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that the whole Gettysburg Address is not Christian language,

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it's religious language, so is the second inaugural,

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but it's not Christian.

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It seems to understand that there are Americans

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who are religious people,

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but have different,

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different approaches to God,

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and that that's very much Lincoln, indeed the phrase,

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this nation under God, later part of the Pledge

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of Allegiance in the United States.

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That seems to have been a Lincoln invention,

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and you only need compare Lincoln, say with other people

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who spoke at Gettysburg.

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Uh, and,

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and they completely ignored the Jewish soldiers,

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who had fallen in the battle, where,

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as in Lincoln's much shorter address,

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they were taken account of.

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And one of the points we make in the book is

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that this was learned that is young Lincoln,

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like most Americans at that time, reflexively

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considered the United States a Christian nation.

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But as he became more and more aware, of Jews

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and perhaps other non-Christians, Lincoln becomes

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sensitive, even rhetorically, to that point,

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the Jewish chaplain say is of course, the most famous

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issue, when,

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when the Civil War begins reasonably,

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especially since you were moving troops away from home.

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So they could no longer, depend

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on, their ministers.

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Um, the United States sets up a,

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a military chaplaincy program.

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And, it is officially that a,

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a chaplain must be a minister

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of some Christian denomination.

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That's the language in the law.

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Now, I understand the motivation

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because, they wanted to prevent all sorts

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of phonies, from getting in.

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So you had to be an ordained minister,

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in order to be a chaplain.

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And, chaplains fulfilled a

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variety of functions.

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Often if the soldiers were literate, they wrote letters

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for them, they, counseled them and so on.

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But, this, ordained minister

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of some Christian denomination, of course, precluded Jews,

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we can see that Jews protested, especially

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after, a Jew was excluded.

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For that reason, the letter exists that,

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but for the fact that you are not a Christian,

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you would've been a fine candidate.

15:40.785 --> 15:43.205
Uh, it basically says,

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and that of course,

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would've rendered Jew second class citizens,

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and also suggested

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to people in the military that, they,

15:57.785 --> 15:58.795
were second class.

15:59.575 --> 16:04.385
And as a result of that, as I said, Lincoln,

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helped to craft a build that,

16:11.245 --> 16:13.375

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opens up the military chaplaincy effectively to Jews.

16:19.075 --> 16:21.735
The other moment when we see Lincoln

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acting is, when one

16:28.285 --> 16:32.165
of his generals, one of his top generals, Ulysses, as Grant,

16:32.345 --> 16:35.005
not yet a general in chief of the Army,

16:35.265 --> 16:39.285
but head of the Tennessee Army, which had

16:39.885 --> 16:43.285
extended far beyond, Tennessee.

16:44.225 --> 16:46.695
We have map. And,

16:47.275 --> 16:51.775
US Grant had persuaded himself that

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smugglers and Jews were synonyms.

16:54.845 --> 16:58.895
That is to say that,

16:58.905 --> 17:00.655
there was a problem of smuggling.

17:00.655 --> 17:02.015
Nobody doubts that.

17:02.595 --> 17:07.175
And that he blamed smuggling, on Jews.

17:08.345 --> 17:09.605
And the solution,

17:09.675 --> 17:13.645
therefore, he thought was to,

17:14.505 --> 17:15.845
expel Jews

17:16.065 --> 17:20.805
and ban them from his war zone, which he, proceeded

17:20.825 --> 17:25.365
to do in December of 1862, when,

17:26.185 --> 17:29.165
he discovered curiously

17:29.795 --> 17:32.925
that his own father was in league with

17:33.595 --> 17:37.565
some Jewish clothier to smuggle cotton,

17:37.595 --> 17:39.285
from the south to the north.

17:39.425 --> 17:40.805
I'm sure they needed the cotton,

17:40.885 --> 17:43.925
because you can't make clothes without cotton.

17:44.225 --> 17:48.325
But from Grant's perspective, this was giving money

17:49.145 --> 17:50.445
to, the South.

17:50.945 --> 17:54.645
But in any case, this were individuals not as,

17:54.665 --> 17:56.605
he calls it Jews as a class.

17:57.265 --> 17:58.405
And he goes ahead

17:58.985 --> 18:02.485
and in what becomes known as general orders number 11,

18:03.225 --> 18:05.445
expels Jews as a class.

18:05.945 --> 18:08.845
In other words, because some Jews smuggle,

18:09.505 --> 18:11.045
all Jews are expelled.

18:12.045 --> 18:14.025
And, some of those,

18:14.285 --> 18:18.345
or one of those Jews, who who was expelled,

18:19.205 --> 18:23.305
quickly travels to Washington.

18:24.285 --> 18:25.345
It was a different day.

18:25.445 --> 18:26.705
He gets in

18:26.845 --> 18:29.105
and brings the order to Lincoln,

18:29.285 --> 18:30.905
who had actually not seen it

18:31.565 --> 18:34.305
and tells him what he had experienced.

18:35.205 --> 18:38.615
And what is so astonishing is

18:39.245 --> 18:43.905
Lincoln reverses the order, apparently on the spot.

18:44.645 --> 18:47.105
Uh, you know, it's not like he spent weeks

18:47.165 --> 18:48.665
and weeks investigating.

18:49.565 --> 18:53.415
Uh, now they could hardly believe

18:53.485 --> 18:54.775
such an order was given.

18:55.555 --> 18:59.455
So if you look, Lincoln says, if such an order

19:00.035 --> 19:04.055
has been issued, it is hereby revoked.

19:04.155 --> 19:07.655
And I explained why they might have doubted it,

19:07.795 --> 19:12.215
but the effect, was,

19:12.285 --> 19:17.075
that grant had to rescind, the order came in

19:17.255 --> 19:20.155
for significant criticism,

19:20.905 --> 19:24.035
even though he'd become the hero, of,

19:24.175 --> 19:25.915
of the conflict eventually.

19:27.015 --> 19:28.275
Um,

19:28.455 --> 19:30.995
and that, that issue,

19:32.195 --> 19:36.755
resurfaces when Grant runs to President in 1868.

19:36.775 --> 19:41.675
And that at that point, grant effectively apologizes

19:42.335 --> 19:46.755
and, makes

19:47.945 --> 19:51.435
central to his presidency, the inclusion of Jews.

19:52.495 --> 19:55.655
But for this book, the fact

19:55.685 --> 19:59.535
that Lincoln instantly overturned the order

20:00.115 --> 20:03.175
really tells you a lot about Lincoln.

20:04.315 --> 20:08.335
And, there, there's some marvelous quotes about

20:08.965 --> 20:11.855
what Lincoln tells Jewish leaders, who, of course,

20:11.885 --> 20:15.175
when they heard about the order rushed to Washington

20:15.795 --> 20:18.655
to have it reversed by the time they got there,

20:19.155 --> 20:22.135
it had already been, reversed.

20:22.235 --> 20:25.855
But Lincoln essentially says, I don't like to hear a group

20:26.075 --> 20:30.975
or, a class persecuted on a count of a few sinners.

20:31.635 --> 20:35.175
And honestly, that's the essence of prejudice.

20:35.325 --> 20:39.655
Even today, blaming an entire class of people

20:40.555 --> 20:42.295
for a few sinners.

20:42.525 --> 20:47.135
This was really, the high point of, of seeing Lincoln.

20:47.845 --> 20:51.945
But there are really, remarkable things.

20:52.125 --> 20:55.265
The Lincoln Papers, which are very voluminous, exist.

20:56.165 --> 21:00.545
And, I, I have to say, I I became

21:01.255 --> 21:06.185
very impressed, the private Lincoln,

21:07.005 --> 21:09.025
and you see a lot of the private Lincoln,

21:09.425 --> 21:12.865
'cause there are so many of his private letters,

21:12.935 --> 21:15.265
some even reproduced in illustrations.

21:16.415 --> 21:19.875
The private Lincoln is as good as the public Lincoln.

21:21.065 --> 21:25.165
Um, sometimes with public figures,

21:26.245 --> 21:29.705
the private person is repugnant.

21:29.845 --> 21:32.985
And when their letters come out, think of Richard Nixon,

21:33.415 --> 21:38.185
even their friends are appalled that the private person

21:38.895 --> 21:40.065
exposed in the letters.

21:40.925 --> 21:45.375
In Lincoln's case, the private is

21:45.435 --> 21:47.695
as good as the public.

21:47.995 --> 21:50.215
Uh, one of my favorite examples

21:51.355 --> 21:54.335
is a private letter Lincoln writes

21:55.065 --> 21:59.575
about why he refused to become a no nothing.

21:59.835 --> 22:03.695
The no nothings were an anti-Catholic party

22:04.875 --> 22:06.735
in, the 1850s.

22:07.985 --> 22:09.015
There was a lot

22:09.015 --> 22:12.935
of anti-Catholic hysteria in the United States at that time.

22:13.805 --> 22:17.125
Lots of people for time became, no,

22:17.125 --> 22:20.045
nothings later coveted up or were embarrassed.

22:20.505 --> 22:22.245
Uh, but Lincoln never did.

22:22.385 --> 22:24.245
And he explained,

22:25.725 --> 22:28.585
but I, he explained that it was un-American

22:30.065 --> 22:33.965
to be, a no nothing.

22:34.705 --> 22:36.805
Uh, and he wouldn't be part of it.

00:00 - I had written a book, on Ulysses as Grant and, his, effort to expel Jews, Ms. Warzone, that Abraham Lincoln then overturned. And that sensitized me to Lincoln's unusual role

00:22 - with American, Jews. And, I was giving a lecture on that earlier book. And, Benjamin Chappelle was in the audience, and he said, you know, I have a collection of documents about Abraham Lincoln and the Jews. I always wanted to have a historian really look at those documents and work with me on a book. And before long, that we were working on that very book

00:59 - because, the documents told, a broader story of Lincoln's, knowledge of Jews, interactions with Jews, sensitivity, and of course also the role of Jews, in the American Civil War. really, a moment when you began to have, an American Jewish community of size, about 150,000 as distinct from just 20 years earlier, when hard

01:40 - to imagine was more than 15,000. And so you're also talking about an era of great change, in the United States when, Jews become what today we would call a visible minority. And more and more people are encountering them. Benjamin Chappelle had been collecting for some years document connecting, Lincoln and the Jews. some of them are absolutely spectacular. we have not yet appointed a Hebrew,

02:22 - Lincoln says, I call it jokingly, the first, a document of, affirmative action in American, history. a sense, that that should be done. other, documents simply attesting to the fact that he had a very wide range of Jewish friends and associates. And indeed, at a certain point, we commissioned a chart of, which is

03:05 - close associates further out. And there's certainly no American president to Lincoln's Day who had so many, Jewish friends and associates. And that clearly shaped him. When he heard the word Jew, he didn't think about someone who lived at the time of Jesus. He thought about people he knew, and that's a tremendous and vital, difference.

03:41 - and, then, there were many people mentioned in standard books on Abraham Lincoln, more books on Lincoln and, practically, anybody. but people had not paid attention, to the fact that some of these folks, were Jewish. And that suddenly, put the whole story into a, a somewhat, different perspective.

04:21 - but there's certainly, cases where really brand new materials. We talk at some length about a man named Issachar. and, thanks to new materials, some of which Mr. Chappelle, owned, we were able to paint a much fuller picture of this curious character who was, what they used to call a carist. Today, the word would be podiatrist,

05:03 - not usually a central character. But Lincoln had bad feet. And, Iscar, Issachar wa Issachar Zachery, was his full name, Issachar Zachery, was, really, very, a clever man in terms of knowing how to put people at ease and how to, befriend them. And, his role turned out, to be extremely interesting, for a time he's a spy,

05:41 - for Lincoln, and certainly someone, who helps, Lincoln, politically, trying to win for him, the Jewish vote. And again, there, we think of the Jewish vote as something only Spoken about in the 20th century. but it turns out that the first people who Thought about Jews as a group, how their interests,

06:19 - where their interests lie, and The fact that They might be cultivated as an interest Group that really were, was, Lincoln and his associates, One of whom was himself Jewish. And, part of Republican Strategy for the Second edition that we're Now bringing out, that includes what I believe to be the very first,

06:51 - kind a campaign poster That says Jews should Vote for Lincoln. which is amazing That it survived. and, that's for the 1864 Election. Lincoln's second term, he thought he wouldn't win, But he of course did. And,

07:17 - big efforts were made to get Jews to vote for Lincoln. And We talk a little bit About, that New Document, which is one of a variety of, of documents, that are new there. There's a new Document As well, dealing with a doctor, who first reached, who, Who was called in to try and save Lincoln after,

07:53 - he was Shot and Some understanding Of why he was called in and where he lived, and he was close by the theater And so on. But again, the whole Jewish role in Lincoln's Career, from A very Young age when, he's in Illinois And Has a good

08:20 - Friend who Is, like him, a kind Of itinerant Lawyer, all the way through, his dying day, is really quite interesting when you consider that the middle of the 19th century, is a time when in much of the world, Jews were A deeply persecuted second class Citizens. You know, the whole story would be

08:53 - unimaginable if we were talking not about Lincoln, but about, I don't know, czar Alexander. at the same time, there's little doubt, that back, in Illinois, you know, these were just colleagues and, he, came to respect, Jews. He, he met to, this is also a time when the clothing industry in the United States was being transformed.

09:32 - Jews played a huge role in, that industry, which of course is going to be advanced by the Civil War, and, the need for uniforms. But long before then, Lincoln, in Illinois would use Jewish clothing store as Jewish tailor and so on. That's matter of fact. when it came to politics, you know, then I thought, I think there were certain

10:11 - policies that it was hoped would, approve, attractive, to Jews. Lincoln was especially eager to attract Jews who, had fled to the United States after the failure of the 1848 Revolutions. they shared many of his values, and, there was a sense that this was, a prime population for,

10:55 - him to attract. but there was a basic fairness. So, to give an example, when Lincoln learned that, the chaplaincy in the American army was restricted to Christians, and that a, a Jew could not be a chaplain, even though you had more and more Jewish soldiers, it's clear that he became personally involved, especially after one of the men who had been elected.

11:36 - Really in those days, they elect, units, elected chaplains couldn't serve because he wasn't a Christian. And Lincoln played a role in changing, those laws and policies that wasn't so easy to do. and there I think it was something that he deeply cared about. Similarly, and I admit, that not everybody agrees, but I argue in the book that a very well known phrase, the Gettysburg address, un,

12:16 - this nation under God, the fact that the whole Gettysburg Address is not Christian language, it's religious language, so is the second inaugural, but it's not Christian. It seems to understand that there are Americans who are religious people, but have different, different approaches to God, and that that's very much Lincoln, indeed the phrase, this nation under God, later part of the Pledge

12:53 - of Allegiance in the United States. That seems to have been a Lincoln invention, and you only need compare Lincoln, say with other people who spoke at Gettysburg. and, and they completely ignored the Jewish soldiers, who had fallen in the battle, where, as in Lincoln's much shorter address, they were taken account of. And one of the points we make in the book is

13:25 - that this was learned that is young Lincoln, like most Americans at that time, reflexively considered the United States a Christian nation. But as he became more and more aware, of Jews and perhaps other non-Christians, Lincoln becomes sensitive, even rhetorically, to that point, the Jewish chaplain say is of course, the most famous issue, when, when the Civil War begins reasonably, especially since you were moving troops away from home.

14:10 - So they could no longer, depend on, their ministers. the United States sets up a, a military chaplaincy program. And, it is officially that a, a chaplain must be a minister of some Christian denomination. That's the language in the law. Now, I understand the motivation because, they wanted to prevent all sorts

14:49 - of phonies, from getting in. So you had to be an ordained minister, in order to be a chaplain. And, chaplains fulfilled a variety of functions. Often if the soldiers were literate, they wrote letters for them, they, counseled them and so on. But, this, ordained minister of some Christian denomination, of course, precluded Jews, we can see that Jews protested, especially

15:27 - after, a Jew was excluded. For that reason, the letter exists that, but for the fact that you are not a Christian, you would've been a fine candidate. it basically says, and that of course, would've rendered Jew second class citizens, and also suggested to people in the military that, they, were second class.

15:59 - And as a result of that, as I said, Lincoln, helped to craft a build that, opens up the military chaplaincy effectively to Jews. The other moment when we see Lincoln acting is, when one of his generals, one of his top generals, Ulysses, as Grant, not yet a general in chief of the Army, but head of the Tennessee Army, which had extended far beyond, Tennessee.

16:44 - We have map. And, US Grant had persuaded himself that smugglers and Jews were synonyms. That is to say that, there was a problem of smuggling. Nobody doubts that. And that he blamed smuggling, on Jews. And the solution, therefore, he thought was to, expel Jews

17:16 - and ban them from his war zone, which he, proceeded to do in December of 1862, when, he discovered curiously that his own father was in league with some Jewish clothier to smuggle cotton, from the south to the north. I'm sure they needed the cotton, because you can't make clothes without cotton. But from Grant's perspective, this was giving money to, the South.

17:50 - But in any case, this were individuals not as, he calls it Jews as a class. And he goes ahead and in what becomes known as general orders number 11, expels Jews as a class. In other words, because some Jews smuggle, all Jews are expelled. And, some of those, or one of those Jews, who who was expelled, quickly travels to Washington.

18:24 - It was a different day. He gets in and brings the order to Lincoln, who had actually not seen it and tells him what he had experienced. And what is so astonishing is Lincoln reverses the order, apparently on the spot. you know, it's not like he spent weeks and weeks investigating. now they could hardly believe

18:53 - such an order was given. So if you look, Lincoln says, if such an order has been issued, it is hereby revoked. And I explained why they might have doubted it, but the effect, was, that grant had to rescind, the order came in for significant criticism, even though he'd become the hero, of, of the conflict eventually.

19:28 - and that, that issue, resurfaces when Grant runs to President in 1868. And that at that point, grant effectively apologizes and, makes central to his presidency, the inclusion of Jews. But for this book, the fact that Lincoln instantly overturned the order really tells you a lot about Lincoln. And, there, there's some marvelous quotes about what Lincoln tells Jewish leaders, who, of course,

20:11 - when they heard about the order rushed to Washington to have it reversed by the time they got there, it had already been, reversed. But Lincoln essentially says, I don't like to hear a group or, a class persecuted on a count of a few sinners. And honestly, that's the essence of prejudice. Even today, blaming an entire class of people for a few sinners. This was really, the high point of, of seeing Lincoln. But there are really, remarkable things.

20:52 - The Lincoln Papers, which are very voluminous, exist. And, I, I have to say, I I became very impressed, the private Lincoln, and you see a lot of the private Lincoln, 'cause there are so many of his private letters, some even reproduced in illustrations. The private Lincoln is as good as the public Lincoln. sometimes with public figures, the private person is repugnant. And when their letters come out, think of Richard Nixon,

21:33 - even their friends are appalled that the private person exposed in the letters. In Lincoln's case, the private is as good as the public. one of my favorite examples is a private letter Lincoln writes about why he refused to become a no nothing. The no nothings were an anti-Catholic party in, the 1850s. There was a lot

22:09 - of anti-Catholic hysteria in the United States at that time. Lots of people for time became, no, nothings later coveted up or were embarrassed. but Lincoln never did. And he explained, but I, he explained that it was un-American to be, a no nothing. and he wouldn't be part of it.

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