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Aida Hajro discusses transformation in directionality and geographic spread of global migration patterns, human rights among under-researched migrant populations, and working from anywhere in automated workplaces or with artificial intelligence.

Image courtesy of interviewee. July 26, 2024

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This video features a conversation with Ada about the implications of migration for business and management scholars, particularly emphasizing the interdependence between the movement of people and firms across borders. They discuss the recent increase in skilled migrants and examples from corporate America, highlighting how immigrants are becoming CEOs of major companies.

Ada points out that despite the increasing focus from management scholars on migration, the topic remains underexplored compared to other disciplines. The discussion includes migration patterns, such as the demographic shifts in who migrates and the impact on labor markets, notably in Central and Eastern Europe, where labor shortages are prompting the recruitment of workers from farther countries.

Human resource management implications are discussed, including the need for diversity, the dynamics of labor shortages, and the challenges of retaining skilled migrants. Ada also addresses the human rights aspects associated with forced migration and the exploitation of migrant workers through corrupt recruitment practices.

The conversation touches on changes in work dynamics due to technological advancements and remote working trends, posing questions about the future of skilled migration and the balance between corporate needs and worker rights. Ada concludes with implications for future research, emphasizing the need to address migration's complexities, the corporate demand for workers, and the societal perceptions surrounding refugees and migrants. Key recommendations for changing negative discourse around migration include shifting the narrative to be fact-based and highlighting the role of corporations in labor demand and sustainable migration practices.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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Migration, of course, is no cure in a vacuum movement

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of firms actually triggers the movement

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of people and vice versa.

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I mean, when you look, just example

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of Honda in the United States,

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Honda established its US subsidiary in California,

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Los Angeles, because of the presence of,

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Japanese immigrants back there

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because it facilitated the entry.

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If you have access to people who speak your language,

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but know your culture,

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but also know the culture of the country

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where you're expanding, it makes things easier.

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So businesses, of course, are also the main beneficiaries

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of migrant labor.

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Consumerism innovation and ideas and things are changing

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because in the last, couple of decades, the number

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of skilled migrants has been increasing.

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And this is also, also for me,

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an interesting observation also

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reflected in corporate America.

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When you think just about, who is the CEO of Google?

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It's a first generation Indian,

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which was something impossible, let's say some decades ago.

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Uh, the CEO of Starbucks is first generation Indian.

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Um, the CEO of Microsoft is first generation Indian.

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Until recently, the CEO

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of PepsiCo was a first generation immigrant,

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and the new president of World Bank is the

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first generation immigrant.

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So things are changing.

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Uh, but, unfortunately,

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some management scholars haven't been paying much attention

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to migration until recently.

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But in the last, decade, we have started engaging more

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and more with the topic because we are seeing

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that it has the immense implications

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for business activities of firms.

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Just another example, very brief,

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there was a study published in General Ford Business

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where they looked at, small

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and medium sized enterprises in China

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that are located in provinces

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where they don't receive enough, government support.

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And these small

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and medium sized enterprises were only able to export

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to the United States because to me,

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immigrants in the United States were buying their products,

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you know, so it's a very close link

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between migration and business.

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We look at, movements across the globe

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and the implications of these movements for firm activities.

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It's a huge multidisciplinary domain of migration studies.

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I mean, the first known war, known work,

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in the area is the laws of migration by Rubenstein,

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the first work that maps out the internal

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and international movement of people.

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And since then, scholars from political science,

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anthropology, population, geography, sociology,

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psychology have been, you know,

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studying the topic of migration.

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Um, so as I say, there is not so much in business

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and management, but what me

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and I'm working very closely

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with a colleague from the University of Economics

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and Business Mill are doing is we're familiarizing as

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with this, multidisciplinary domain

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of migration studies,

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and we are looking at what insights can be actually imported

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into the business and management domain,

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and what is that we in business

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and management are doing that

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Could have implications

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for migration studies in this multidisciplinary domain

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that could be exported.

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Because when you think about international business scholars

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for, for decades,

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they have been studying why firms are moving abroad.

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Uh, but, unfortunately also for decades,

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international business scholars have not been communicating

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with international, migration scholars

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who are studying why and how people are moving abroad.

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There is a lot of amazing work,

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but I have maybe, written down three pieces

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that I really like

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and that I would recommend people who would like

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to familiarize themselves with the migration literature,

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but also people who know it

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but haven't read maybe this work, this the age

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of migration behind the house.

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Seeing Kes and Mark Miller was very useful for me,

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as I started engaging more with the topic.

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And actually, I've been working on migration topic

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only for the last decade.

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So I'm new to the area.

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I would say how migration really work.

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It's just a new book behind the house.

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Um, and, and it's for the broader audience.

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So anybody who would like to know something about migration,

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I think should read this book, high Skill Migration

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by Mathias Ska

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and The Gift of Global Talent by William Kier.

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But again, these are just some of my favorites,

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and there is, a lot of

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extremely interesting work in the huge multidisciplinary

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domain of migration studies here.

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Um, a great work has been done actually behind the has

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and his colleagues on changes in migration patterns.

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Um, and, one

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of their most recent papers was just published 2019,

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and I had to, I was fortunate to read it

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because what to explain is the changes in the geography

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and, composition of global migration.

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So what the piece actually illustrates is how inter how

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until recently, Europeans were the biggest percentage

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of intercontinental migrants,

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but in the last decade,

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this number has significantly decreased.

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When you think in, in 1960 Europeans, accountant

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for 76% of intercontinental migrants, of course,

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we were colonizing and we were escaping war.

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And in 2017, this number was 22% only.

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So there was a huge shift in,

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in this directionality of migration.

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And, in the meantime, what happened is that, Asians,

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Latin Americans and Africans increasingly account

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for intercontinental migrants.

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Uh, and their favorite destination

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among their favorite are Europe to Gulf

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and parts of East Asia, their new favorite destinations.

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What we have also observed,

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and this is actually non phenomena,

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the replacement migration that many

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of the former low income countries have actually become

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middle income countries.

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What happens then is people in middle income countries

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suddenly don't want to do certain jobs

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because they are more qualified for other jobs.

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And what also happens,

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and you can really,

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very well observe this in the context of Europe,

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many centralist Europeans from

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this now new middle income countries they went to work

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to in western Europe.

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And suddenly there are huge labor shortages in traditionally

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countries that were known for low skilled labor supply.

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But in this countries now,

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you have many multinational enterprises

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that have set up their operations.

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Yeah. So, and now suddenly they don't have enough workers.

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So what do you do in Central East Europe?

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You bring them from Mongolia, you bring them from Nepal,

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and you bring them from the Philippines.

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Yeah. Just recently, me

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and my colleague, I'm not allowed to say the name,

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but it's a big multinational,

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and we visited the factories, my colleague in Hungary,

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and on the factory floor,

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you would still find 60% Hungarians,

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but 40% were from Ukraine

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and the majority from the Philippines,

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which changes all the dynamics.

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So this is something that has huge implications

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for human resource management

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and even for chief human resource management officers.

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Another implication that this may be, that it's

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that the number of skilled migrants has increased.

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And the first example, the example that I gave you,

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about the CEOs of American corporations,

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you can see there it's reflected in that.

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And what has also changed is that, the number

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of out-migration countries has increased,

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but the number of immigration,

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net immigration countries has, decreased.

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So net out migration countries,

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net immigration countries, what do I mean?

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So the people from a very wider diverse area

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of countries are going into a shrinking pool

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of key destination countries.

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So, and we think always when we see this,

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if we are placed in one of these key destination countries,

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and for example, United Kingdom is one

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of the favorite countries for skilled migrants,

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that migration has been drastically increasing.

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But the reality is,

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and I think I need to emphasize it, that the percentage

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of migrants has been fluctuating between 2.7 and 3.6% only.

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So it's a relatively stable phenomena.

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But in certain regions like Europe,

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from a European perspective, yes,

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migration has been increasing.

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Yeah. And so it has, implications for,

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like I asked me human, about implications it has

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for human resource management.

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Of course, it has implications

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that suddenly in this locations in central Eastern Europe,

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you need to bring all this laws called migrants

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from very far away.

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It has the implications that you're dealing with,

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more diversity or

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what severe activists coin to super diversity.

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And it's also reflected in many multinational corporations.

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And many multinationals have also their headquarters in the

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global cities, Singapore, London, New York.

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And then you have this very high super diversity

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of people working for this multinational corporations,

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which then, you know, may, may,

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may make us rethink some aspects of diversity

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and inclusion policies.

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In this context, it's actually very critical

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because there are so many misconceptions of migration.

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And I will start now with the most vulnerable group

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among the migrants.

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And these are refugees.

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There are currently around 36 million refugees worldwide.

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Um, so,

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but what we need to keep in mind that 75%

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of these refugees are residing in low income

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or middle income neighboring countries.

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And before the war in Ukraine, this percentage was 85%.

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So in politics, you hear often they're coming,

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they're coming, they're stealing all jobs.

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Reality is that one fifth of them

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is stuck actually in refugee camps,

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and they don't have the financial means to get out.

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And the very tiny percentage of those people in low

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and middle income countries can ever make it, if at all,

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to high income countries.

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Yeah. And from, from, you know, I know

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with the Syrian refugee crisis

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and in the news was constantly,

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they are coming, they're coming.

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But now just to give you two examples

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to the Tuong refugee camp in Bangladesh,

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the biggest refugee camp, host, 800,000 refugees

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and the Maria Center in Greece, in its peak,

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and to the best of my knowledge, this is the biggest,

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refugee hosting camp in Europe hosted 18,000.

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So, and these are aspects

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that you very often don't hear about.

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Um, and now to, to human rights,

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issues also related to low skilled migrant workers.

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I mentioned, the changing, you know, context in,

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central East Europe,

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but also it applies to Malaysia, it applies

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to many other countries that have suddenly become middle

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income countries, is that many companies that

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can have to actually require

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to recruit workers in their places of origin.

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You know? So it means

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that if you are large multinational corporation

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and you want workers from the Philippines, you have

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to have your hr, people in Philippines direct treat.

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But very often companies don't have this. Yeah.

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And so you rely on recruitment agencies,

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but risk recruitment agencies are infamous

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for having corrupt ties to go, local governments

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for making false promises to migrant workers.

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And for, for, for demanding

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that migrant workers pay extremely high recruitment fees.

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So what happens then is that the migrant worker pays one

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to two years of his future income

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to the recruitment agency just to get the job abroad.

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And, and then, and then

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of course they set human rights implications.

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Think about what happened during covid,

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and I, I I, I don't know the specifics here,

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but when suddenly factories,

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I know from the multinationals that they're managing it

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Very well, that they had a huge issue.

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You bring all these low-skill migrant workers,

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and then you're faced with covid.

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You have to shut down your factories. What do you do?

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Do you keep them in the dormitories?

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Do you send them back home?

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And if you send them back home,

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once you can start the production again,

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how fast can you bring them back?

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And then there are also gender issues, for example,

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for female migrant workers, low skilled migrant workers.

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Um, so in many countries it's actually prohibited,

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but in some still, it's a, you know, requirement

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for female migrant worker to get a job abroad,

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to do a pregnancy test, reapplying for the job.

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And then if, of course, you cannot take your kids with you

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because you're working in a factory

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and you are probably sleeping in a dormitory that is owned,

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established by the factory.

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So you leave your kids behind.

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But if you get pregnant in the destination

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country, what happens?

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You are either, you know, may you lose your job many cases,

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and you're immediately deported.

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Yeah. So it's, it's, it's,

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more complexity involved in this as well.

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So these are some of the human right violations.

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But maybe just last, it's a good fact is that many

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companies have been stepping up, you know, to,

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to prevent this from happening.

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And many multinationals have been also

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investing more in their global supply chains, working

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with their second, third year suppliers,

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to prevent abuses of migrant workers.

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When you think about industry 4.0 is changing a lot

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because suddenly you need, people on the factory floor

13:32.665 --> 13:33.965
who have high skills,

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and these people have

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to work along alongside cobots collaborative robots.

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Um, so companies have to train them.

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And now from talking with, human research officers,

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of, multinational corporations in electronics industry,

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the complexities for them

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that when they bring these workers from abroad

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and they upskill them, they also want

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to retain them for longer.

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And very often, you know, low skilled migrant visa are, are

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are temporary, temporary.

14:02.665 --> 14:06.485
So, and what these multinationals might want is

14:06.545 --> 14:08.805
for governments to extend the visas

14:08.805 --> 14:09.925
for low-skill migrant workers.

14:10.105 --> 14:13.725
If I spend two years to get them to the level so

14:13.725 --> 14:16.285
that they can work with cobots, then I also want

14:16.285 --> 14:17.325
to retain them for longer.

14:17.625 --> 14:20.445
And there might be a pledge between, you know, corporate

14:20.965 --> 14:25.525
policies and, the needs of the multinationals

14:25.545 --> 14:28.965
or corporations employing low scale migrant workers on the

14:28.965 --> 14:33.605
factory for floor to work with this very complex operators.

14:34.225 --> 14:36.085
So this is one of the dynamics.

14:36.105 --> 14:39.605
So the question is, what are the realms

14:39.625 --> 14:43.085
of responsible migration reforms in industry 4.0 context,

14:43.185 --> 14:46.685
and what changes will be occurring in the not so far future?

14:47.225 --> 14:50.405
So just maybe also one aspect related to this.

14:50.425 --> 14:52.565
We hear often that people will be replaced,

14:53.265 --> 14:55.565
but from the field research that,

14:55.625 --> 14:57.285
we have been doing,

14:58.025 --> 15:00.885
and talking to human research officers who are working

15:00.995 --> 15:05.045
with these migrants on the factory floor, they don't see

15:05.045 --> 15:07.885
that the need for low-skill migrants will drastically

15:08.125 --> 15:09.525
increase in the next five years.

15:09.675 --> 15:11.685
It's definitely not so good.

15:12.065 --> 15:14.445
And then with the high skilled, of course,

15:14.515 --> 15:18.325
work from anywhere, future has huge implications.

15:18.425 --> 15:21.005
So more and more companies are offering the

15:21.005 --> 15:22.565
opportunities to work from anywhere.

15:23.065 --> 15:27.205
And also more and more people are enjoying the benefits

15:27.205 --> 15:28.565
of geographic flexibility.

15:29.065 --> 15:31.205
But then there is also a range of questions that,

15:31.265 --> 15:32.285
may arise.

15:32.745 --> 15:34.645
Um, some have argued that, for example,

15:34.665 --> 15:36.485
low income countries might benefit from it

15:36.485 --> 15:38.325
because it may reverse the brain drain.

15:38.825 --> 15:40.205
But then we still don't know

15:40.205 --> 15:42.445
what the implications this will have for high,

15:42.945 --> 15:44.245
income countries.

15:44.955 --> 15:48.045
Yeah. Well, we see a decrease in skilled migration.

15:48.945 --> 15:50.605
We don't know,

15:50.675 --> 15:52.805
will we see an increase in global domestics.

15:52.805 --> 15:55.005
These are people who are residing in their countries

15:55.005 --> 15:56.285
of origin, but working

15:56.425 --> 15:58.645
for a corporation based in the different countries.

15:59.265 --> 16:00.365
Um, we don't know.

16:00.665 --> 16:01.965
The only thing that we know is

16:01.965 --> 16:03.685
that skilled migrants migration.

16:03.925 --> 16:05.085
I say that the percentage

16:05.125 --> 16:07.205
of migrants has remained, relatively stable.

16:07.305 --> 16:09.525
It has, but the number of skilled migrants

16:09.525 --> 16:11.925
and the percentage of skilled migrants in the last,

16:11.925 --> 16:13.525
couple of decades has been increasing.

16:13.905 --> 16:16.925
My conclusion is, of course, that we need

16:16.945 --> 16:20.285
to study more depth, co-dependencies

16:20.305 --> 16:22.645
and the relationships between migration and business.

16:23.825 --> 16:27.995
Yeah, and also what I believe we need to keep in mind

16:28.145 --> 16:30.825
that it's actually corporations

16:32.095 --> 16:34.065
that are demanding workers.

16:34.615 --> 16:37.185
Most, more, most workers are labor migrants.

16:37.485 --> 16:40.265
So when you, when you listen to, to the public discourse

16:40.265 --> 16:43.225
or to politics, migrants are often to blame.

16:43.845 --> 16:46.985
But actually migrants wouldn't be coming if corporations

16:46.985 --> 16:48.945
would not desperately these same migrants.

16:49.205 --> 16:51.305
You know, there could be, there can be a push

16:51.365 --> 16:53.905
to leave your country, but if there is not a pull

16:54.895 --> 16:58.195
to be pulled to different country, then you know,

16:58.465 --> 17:00.955
migration wouldn't occur the way that it's secure,

17:00.975 --> 17:02.035
securing right now.

17:02.155 --> 17:05.795
Now, I think what, what, what is really fascinating

17:05.795 --> 17:08.875
for me and what scholars in particular in my area should

17:08.875 --> 17:11.555
study in more detail, is these changes in migration patterns

17:11.555 --> 17:13.155
over the last six, decades,

17:13.655 --> 17:15.915
and the implications for the activities of firms,

17:16.055 --> 17:17.395
in particular for the activities

17:17.395 --> 17:19.195
of multinational corporations.

17:19.625 --> 17:23.515
Another area that is, I think very fascinating,

17:23.705 --> 17:25.475
it's the global cities and migration.

17:26.385 --> 17:31.285
So today, to the best of my knowledge, like 54% I think,

17:31.385 --> 17:34.725
or yeah, around 55, I don't know the exact percentage,

17:34.725 --> 17:36.525
sorry, but, are living,

17:36.625 --> 17:38.325
people are living in global cities.

17:38.785 --> 17:42.085
But what I know is that by 2030, the number is expected

17:42.145 --> 17:43.685
to increase to 60%.

17:44.655 --> 17:46.995
And then think about the implications

17:47.015 --> 17:48.475
of this for the global cities,

17:49.145 --> 17:52.805
For migrants, because more migrants when they go, they go

17:52.805 --> 17:55.605
to the large cities and especially the high skilled,

17:55.945 --> 17:57.445
and also for corporations

17:57.465 --> 17:59.765
and businesses operating in these global cities.

18:00.315 --> 18:03.435
Yeah. And I think what

18:03.435 --> 18:06.475
where we also need far more research, there is research

18:06.475 --> 18:08.035
and the psychology of refugees,

18:08.525 --> 18:12.135
because right now, the way refugees are mostly portrayed

18:12.275 --> 18:13.895
as those people in desperate need.

18:14.195 --> 18:17.415
But what we don't hear in the media is the resilience

18:17.465 --> 18:18.495
among the refugees.

18:19.235 --> 18:22.615
And we talk a lot about post-traumatic stress syndrome,

18:22.795 --> 18:25.335
but we don't talk a lot about post-traumatic growth.

18:25.805 --> 18:30.375
Yeah. And some refugees become successful, not, despite,

18:30.515 --> 18:33.255
but because of the challenges that you face along the way.

18:33.435 --> 18:36.935
Of course there is a huge difference, from refugee

18:37.025 --> 18:38.735
where you are, from what stage

18:38.785 --> 18:41.855
after the start of the conflict in your country,

18:42.085 --> 18:43.575
escaped and so on.

18:43.575 --> 18:45.575
But this narrative has to be changed.

18:46.115 --> 18:49.815
And, I think one person who has contributed a lot

18:49.815 --> 18:54.735
to changing it is, kuya, the, the CEO of Chobani

18:54.735 --> 18:55.895
and the Fund of Chobani.

18:56.115 --> 18:58.695
And with him, this had also have an impact

18:58.695 --> 18:59.815
on the entire ecosystem.

19:00.035 --> 19:01.495
And you see now that more

19:01.495 --> 19:04.415
and more like Akea organizations are employing refugees,

19:04.675 --> 19:05.975
you see suddenly that the world

19:05.975 --> 19:08.375
of economic forum has the refugee initiative

19:08.995 --> 19:10.775
and, and so on.

19:11.115 --> 19:13.135
We change the horrible discourse in the uk.

19:13.395 --> 19:14.855
We need to look at the facts

19:15.325 --> 19:18.095
because, migration has been politicized

19:18.095 --> 19:19.215
before it has analyzed.

19:19.795 --> 19:21.735
And first you have to disclose the facts.

19:22.435 --> 19:24.775
And Factum is that, relative number

19:24.775 --> 19:26.895
of migrants hasn't been increasing.

19:27.765 --> 19:31.335
Fact is that most corporations heavily rely on them just

19:31.335 --> 19:32.815
to give statistics from Europe.

19:32.955 --> 19:37.015
In, 2023, only last year, three out of four

19:37.575 --> 19:41.295
European employers had difficulties planning skilled labor.

19:42.195 --> 19:47.045
Yeah. So, so if the discourse should be actually,

19:47.585 --> 19:51.405
from the perspective of a business scholar is that,

19:51.755 --> 19:55.645
migration is not increasing, it's not going to, you know,

19:56.185 --> 19:58.405
fix some of the problems that we are facing,

19:58.775 --> 20:00.365
labor scarcity and so on.

20:00.785 --> 20:02.725
But only corporations that have

20:04.375 --> 20:08.105
responsible sustainable migration management practices in

20:08.105 --> 20:12.105
place are gonna remain probably competitive in the,

20:12.805 --> 20:15.465
in the global war for not just talent,

20:15.765 --> 20:17.305
but the global race for labor.

00:00 - Migration, of course, is no cure in a vacuum movement of firms actually triggers the movement of people and vice versa. I mean, when you look, just example of Honda in the United States, Honda established its US subsidiary in California,

00:13 - Los Angeles, because of the presence of, Japanese immigrants back there because it facilitated the entry. If you have access to people who speak your language, but know your culture, but also know the culture of the country where you're expanding, it makes things easier. So businesses, of course, are also the main beneficiaries of migrant labor. Consumerism innovation and ideas and things are changing

00:38 - because in the last, couple of decades, the number of skilled migrants has been increasing. And this is also, also for me, an interesting observation also reflected in corporate America. When you think just about, who is the CEO of Google? It's a first generation Indian, which was something impossible, let's say some decades ago. the CEO of Starbucks is first generation Indian. the CEO of Microsoft is first generation Indian.

01:06 - Until recently, the CEO of PepsiCo was a first generation immigrant, and the new president of World Bank is the first generation immigrant. So things are changing. but, unfortunately, some management scholars haven't been paying much attention to migration until recently. But in the last, decade, we have started engaging more and more with the topic because we are seeing

01:30 - that it has the immense implications for business activities of firms. Just another example, very brief, there was a study published in General Ford Business where they looked at, small and medium sized enterprises in China that are located in provinces where they don't receive enough, government support. And these small and medium sized enterprises were only able to export

01:52 - to the United States because to me, immigrants in the United States were buying their products, you know, so it's a very close link between migration and business. We look at, movements across the globe and the implications of these movements for firm activities. It's a huge multidisciplinary domain of migration studies. I mean, the first known war, known work, in the area is the laws of migration by Rubenstein, the first work that maps out the internal

02:18 - and international movement of people. And since then, scholars from political science, anthropology, population, geography, sociology, psychology have been, you know, studying the topic of migration. so as I say, there is not so much in business and management, but what me and I'm working very closely with a colleague from the University of Economics and Business Mill are doing is we're familiarizing as

02:45 - with this, multidisciplinary domain of migration studies, and we are looking at what insights can be actually imported into the business and management domain, and what is that we in business and management are doing that Could have implications for migration studies in this multidisciplinary domain that could be exported. Because when you think about international business scholars

03:07 - for, for decades, they have been studying why firms are moving abroad. but, unfortunately also for decades, international business scholars have not been communicating with international, migration scholars who are studying why and how people are moving abroad. There is a lot of amazing work, but I have maybe, written down three pieces that I really like and that I would recommend people who would like

03:32 - to familiarize themselves with the migration literature, but also people who know it but haven't read maybe this work, this the age of migration behind the house. Seeing Kes and Mark Miller was very useful for me, as I started engaging more with the topic. And actually, I've been working on migration topic only for the last decade. So I'm new to the area. I would say how migration really work.

03:55 - It's just a new book behind the house. and, and it's for the broader audience. So anybody who would like to know something about migration, I think should read this book, high Skill Migration by Mathias Ska and The Gift of Global Talent by William Kier. But again, these are just some of my favorites, and there is, a lot of extremely interesting work in the huge multidisciplinary domain of migration studies here.

04:21 - a great work has been done actually behind the has and his colleagues on changes in migration patterns. and, one of their most recent papers was just published 2019, and I had to, I was fortunate to read it because what to explain is the changes in the geography and, composition of global migration. So what the piece actually illustrates is how inter how until recently, Europeans were the biggest percentage of intercontinental migrants,

04:52 - but in the last decade, this number has significantly decreased. When you think in, in 1960 Europeans, accountant for 76% of intercontinental migrants, of course, we were colonizing and we were escaping war. And in 2017, this number was 22% only. So there was a huge shift in, in this directionality of migration. And, in the meantime, what happened is that, Asians, Latin Americans and Africans increasingly account

05:24 - for intercontinental migrants. and their favorite destination among their favorite are Europe to Gulf and parts of East Asia, their new favorite destinations. What we have also observed, and this is actually non phenomena, the replacement migration that many of the former low income countries have actually become middle income countries. What happens then is people in middle income countries

05:47 - suddenly don't want to do certain jobs because they are more qualified for other jobs. And what also happens, and you can really, very well observe this in the context of Europe, many centralist Europeans from this now new middle income countries they went to work to in western Europe. And suddenly there are huge labor shortages in traditionally countries that were known for low skilled labor supply.

06:14 - But in this countries now, you have many multinational enterprises that have set up their operations. Yeah. So, and now suddenly they don't have enough workers. So what do you do in Central East Europe? You bring them from Mongolia, you bring them from Nepal, and you bring them from the Philippines. Yeah. Just recently, me and my colleague, I'm not allowed to say the name, but it's a big multinational,

06:37 - and we visited the factories, my colleague in Hungary, and on the factory floor, you would still find 60% Hungarians, but 40% were from Ukraine and the majority from the Philippines, which changes all the dynamics. So this is something that has huge implications for human resource management and even for chief human resource management officers. Another implication that this may be, that it's

07:02 - that the number of skilled migrants has increased. And the first example, the example that I gave you, about the CEOs of American corporations, you can see there it's reflected in that. And what has also changed is that, the number of out-migration countries has increased, but the number of immigration, net immigration countries has, decreased. So net out migration countries, net immigration countries, what do I mean?

07:29 - So the people from a very wider diverse area of countries are going into a shrinking pool of key destination countries. So, and we think always when we see this, if we are placed in one of these key destination countries, and for example, United Kingdom is one of the favorite countries for skilled migrants, that migration has been drastically increasing. But the reality is, and I think I need to emphasize it, that the percentage

07:57 - of migrants has been fluctuating between 2.7 and 3.6% only. So it's a relatively stable phenomena. But in certain regions like Europe, from a European perspective, yes, migration has been increasing. Yeah. And so it has, implications for, like I asked me human, about implications it has for human resource management. Of course, it has implications that suddenly in this locations in central Eastern Europe,

08:23 - you need to bring all this laws called migrants from very far away. It has the implications that you're dealing with, more diversity or what severe activists coin to super diversity. And it's also reflected in many multinational corporations. And many multinationals have also their headquarters in the global cities, Singapore, London, New York. And then you have this very high super diversity of people working for this multinational corporations,

08:51 - which then, you know, may, may, may make us rethink some aspects of diversity and inclusion policies. In this context, it's actually very critical because there are so many misconceptions of migration. And I will start now with the most vulnerable group among the migrants. And these are refugees. There are currently around 36 million refugees worldwide. so,

09:15 - but what we need to keep in mind that 75% of these refugees are residing in low income or middle income neighboring countries. And before the war in Ukraine, this percentage was 85%. So in politics, you hear often they're coming, they're coming, they're stealing all jobs. Reality is that one fifth of them is stuck actually in refugee camps, and they don't have the financial means to get out. And the very tiny percentage of those people in low

09:46 - and middle income countries can ever make it, if at all, to high income countries. Yeah. And from, from, you know, I know with the Syrian refugee crisis and in the news was constantly, they are coming, they're coming. But now just to give you two examples to the Tuong refugee camp in Bangladesh, the biggest refugee camp, host, 800,000 refugees and the Maria Center in Greece, in its peak,

10:15 - and to the best of my knowledge, this is the biggest, refugee hosting camp in Europe hosted 18,000. So, and these are aspects that you very often don't hear about. and now to, to human rights, issues also related to low skilled migrant workers. I mentioned, the changing, you know, context in, central East Europe, but also it applies to Malaysia, it applies to many other countries that have suddenly become middle

10:46 - income countries, is that many companies that can have to actually require to recruit workers in their places of origin. You know? So it means that if you are large multinational corporation and you want workers from the Philippines, you have to have your hr, people in Philippines direct treat. But very often companies don't have this. Yeah. And so you rely on recruitment agencies, but risk recruitment agencies are infamous

11:16 - for having corrupt ties to go, local governments for making false promises to migrant workers. And for, for, for demanding that migrant workers pay extremely high recruitment fees. So what happens then is that the migrant worker pays one to two years of his future income to the recruitment agency just to get the job abroad. And, and then, and then of course they set human rights implications. Think about what happened during covid,

11:46 - and I, I I, I don't know the specifics here, but when suddenly factories, I know from the multinationals that they're managing it Very well, that they had a huge issue. You bring all these low-skill migrant workers, and then you're faced with covid. You have to shut down your factories. What do you do? Do you keep them in the dormitories? Do you send them back home? And if you send them back home,

12:08 - once you can start the production again, how fast can you bring them back? And then there are also gender issues, for example, for female migrant workers, low skilled migrant workers. so in many countries it's actually prohibited, but in some still, it's a, you know, requirement for female migrant worker to get a job abroad, to do a pregnancy test, reapplying for the job. And then if, of course, you cannot take your kids with you because you're working in a factory

12:40 - and you are probably sleeping in a dormitory that is owned, established by the factory. So you leave your kids behind. But if you get pregnant in the destination country, what happens? You are either, you know, may you lose your job many cases, and you're immediately deported. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's, more complexity involved in this as well. So these are some of the human right violations.

13:07 - But maybe just last, it's a good fact is that many companies have been stepping up, you know, to, to prevent this from happening. And many multinationals have been also investing more in their global supply chains, working with their second, third year suppliers, to prevent abuses of migrant workers. When you think about industry 4.0 is changing a lot because suddenly you need, people on the factory floor who have high skills,

13:34 - and these people have to work along alongside cobots collaborative robots. so companies have to train them. And now from talking with, human research officers, of, multinational corporations in electronics industry, the complexities for them that when they bring these workers from abroad and they upskill them, they also want to retain them for longer. And very often, you know, low skilled migrant visa are, are

14:00 - are temporary, temporary. So, and what these multinationals might want is for governments to extend the visas for low-skill migrant workers. If I spend two years to get them to the level so that they can work with cobots, then I also want to retain them for longer. And there might be a pledge between, you know, corporate policies and, the needs of the multinationals or corporations employing low scale migrant workers on the

14:28 - factory for floor to work with this very complex operators. So this is one of the dynamics. So the question is, what are the realms of responsible migration reforms in industry 4.0 context, and what changes will be occurring in the not so far future? So just maybe also one aspect related to this. We hear often that people will be replaced, but from the field research that, we have been doing, and talking to human research officers who are working

15:00 - with these migrants on the factory floor, they don't see that the need for low-skill migrants will drastically increase in the next five years. It's definitely not so good. And then with the high skilled, of course, work from anywhere, future has huge implications. So more and more companies are offering the opportunities to work from anywhere. And also more and more people are enjoying the benefits of geographic flexibility.

15:29 - But then there is also a range of questions that, may arise. some have argued that, for example, low income countries might benefit from it because it may reverse the brain drain. But then we still don't know what the implications this will have for high, income countries. Yeah. Well, we see a decrease in skilled migration. We don't know,

15:50 - will we see an increase in global domestics. These are people who are residing in their countries of origin, but working for a corporation based in the different countries. we don't know. The only thing that we know is that skilled migrants migration. I say that the percentage of migrants has remained, relatively stable. It has, but the number of skilled migrants

16:09 - and the percentage of skilled migrants in the last, couple of decades has been increasing. My conclusion is, of course, that we need to study more depth, co-dependencies and the relationships between migration and business. Yeah, and also what I believe we need to keep in mind that it's actually corporations that are demanding workers. Most, more, most workers are labor migrants. So when you, when you listen to, to the public discourse

16:40 - or to politics, migrants are often to blame. But actually migrants wouldn't be coming if corporations would not desperately these same migrants. You know, there could be, there can be a push to leave your country, but if there is not a pull to be pulled to different country, then you know, migration wouldn't occur the way that it's secure, securing right now. Now, I think what, what, what is really fascinating for me and what scholars in particular in my area should

17:08 - study in more detail, is these changes in migration patterns over the last six, decades, and the implications for the activities of firms, in particular for the activities of multinational corporations. Another area that is, I think very fascinating, it's the global cities and migration. So today, to the best of my knowledge, like 54% I think, or yeah, around 55, I don't know the exact percentage, sorry, but, are living,

17:36 - people are living in global cities. But what I know is that by 2030, the number is expected to increase to 60%. And then think about the implications of this for the global cities, For migrants, because more migrants when they go, they go to the large cities and especially the high skilled, and also for corporations and businesses operating in these global cities. Yeah. And I think what

18:03 - where we also need far more research, there is research and the psychology of refugees, because right now, the way refugees are mostly portrayed as those people in desperate need. But what we don't hear in the media is the resilience among the refugees. And we talk a lot about post-traumatic stress syndrome, but we don't talk a lot about post-traumatic growth. Yeah. And some refugees become successful, not, despite, but because of the challenges that you face along the way.

18:33 - Of course there is a huge difference, from refugee where you are, from what stage after the start of the conflict in your country, escaped and so on. But this narrative has to be changed. And, I think one person who has contributed a lot to changing it is, kuya, the, the CEO of Chobani and the Fund of Chobani. And with him, this had also have an impact on the entire ecosystem.

19:00 - And you see now that more and more like Akea organizations are employing refugees, you see suddenly that the world of economic forum has the refugee initiative and, and so on. We change the horrible discourse in the uk. We need to look at the facts because, migration has been politicized before it has analyzed. And first you have to disclose the facts.

19:22 - And Factum is that, relative number of migrants hasn't been increasing. Fact is that most corporations heavily rely on them just to give statistics from Europe. In, 2023, only last year, three out of four European employers had difficulties planning skilled labor. Yeah. So, so if the discourse should be actually, from the perspective of a business scholar is that, migration is not increasing, it's not going to, you know, fix some of the problems that we are facing,

19:58 - labor scarcity and so on. But only corporations that have responsible sustainable migration management practices in place are gonna remain probably competitive in the, in the global war for not just talent, but the global race for labor.

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