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Peru since Independence

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Few nations in the world have trekked such a dramatic political path as Peru. John Sherman discusses Peru’s post-1821 history.

Image courtesy of interviewee. December 20, 2023

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This video video is a transcription of a talk where the speaker discusses their recent book about Peru, motivated by the Covid pandemic. The author began writing due to the halted academic and travel opportunities, focusing on the lack of contemporary textbooks on Peru, as the last one in English had not been published for 20 years. They engaged extensively with Peruvian historiography, emphasizing the complexity of Peru's national history, particularly post-independence, which they describe as chaotic and tumultuous.

During their trip to Peru, coinciding with the inauguration of President Pedro Castillo, the author experienced firsthand the political tensions and social dynamics in the country. They explore themes of race, class, and geography, noting the significant divides between the darker-skinned indigenous population and the lighter-skinned political elite. The author aims to present a synthesis of existing scholarship rather than a narrow monograph, hoping to make the material accessible to a broader audience.

The book includes both historical narratives and standalone chapters on contemporary life and culture in Peru, discussing the rise of popular media, film, and literature. Ultimately, the author seeks to illustrate Peru's importance in understanding broader Latin American issues and the challenges faced by third-world countries, inviting readers to engage with this diverse and complex nation.

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Here are some key quotes from the video that highlight important themes and insights:

1. **On the Impact of COVID-19**:
- "Covid, truthfully, this is a Covid book."

2. **On the Author's Journey**:
- "So when Covid hit, I kind of was stalled out. I couldn't travel, uh, classes went online, didn't have much to do, didn't at home. So I decided to write a new book."

3. **On Researching Peru**:
- "No one had done Peru since independence for about 20 years, so in English. So I was game to give it a try and just started prolifically reading about Peru and conceptualizing the book."

4. **On Expertise and Challenges**:
- "The truth is, I was trying to turn one of my weaknesses into my strengths... I’ve not really worked on Peru and Peruvian history’s really thick on ancient Peru."

5. **On the Nature of Historical Research**:
- "I really owe a great debt to the thick historiography of all the scholars that have worked on Peru."

6. **On Writing Style and Audience**:
- "One of my approaches is to just do more synthesis and broader books looking for a more accessible audience."

7. **On the Complexity of Independence**:
- "Independence is a mess... It's just a very confusing web of intrigue."

8. **On Political Instability**:
- "It’s kind of funny. I mean, in a way it’s kind of sick. You have 11 presidents in six years, three constitutions in six years."

9. **On Social Divisions**:
- "Pedro Castillo's short presidency is a commentary on Peruvian race and geographic divide... the country that I'm hyping here has a race problem."

10. **On Contemporary Relevance**:
- "I think it makes my book a little bit relevant... I determined to bring it right up to the present and wrestle with what you political scientists do."

11. **On Engaging Cultural Aspects**:
- "I look at popular culture, the rise of radio, television... Peru has a marvelous film industry."

12. **On the Importance of Understanding Peru**:
- "Peru is such an important piece of the Latin America puzzle... It’s a poignant commentary on the challenges of third world countries."

These quotes encapsulate the author's reflections on the influences of the pandemic on their work, their approach to writing about Peru, the complexity of its history, and the cultural and political dynamics at play.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.055 --> 00:02.605
Covid, truthfully, this is a Covid book.

00:02.745 --> 00:05.485
So when Covid hit, I kind of was stalled out.

00:05.565 --> 00:08.245
I couldn't travel, classes went online,

00:08.265 --> 00:09.765
didn't have much to do, didn't at home.

00:09.765 --> 00:11.045
So I decided to write a new book.

00:11.305 --> 00:13.285
I'd done a textbook on Mexico for the same press,

00:13.285 --> 00:15.565
Roman in Middlefield, and I enjoyed doing it.

00:15.585 --> 00:16.965
And I decided this,

00:16.965 --> 00:19.365
this time I looked a little bit more at the market,

00:19.545 --> 00:21.405
my Mexico book, which came out in 2020.

00:21.405 --> 00:23.205
There's like 13 textbooks on Mexico.

00:23.865 --> 00:26.405
Uh, no one had done Peru since independence

00:26.505 --> 00:28.725
for about 20 years, so in English.

00:28.825 --> 00:31.245
So I was game to give it a try

00:31.265 --> 00:33.445
and just started prolifically reading about Peru

00:33.445 --> 00:34.885
and conceptualizing the book.

00:35.145 --> 00:36.565
The truth is, I was trying to turn one

00:36.565 --> 00:38.485
of my weaknesses into my strengths.

00:38.805 --> 00:41.365
I, I've not really worked on Peru

00:41.465 --> 00:44.365
and Peruvian history's really thick on ancient Peru,

00:44.425 --> 00:47.365
the Inca, it's really thick on the epic colonial period.

00:47.905 --> 00:50.645
Uh, but there's not much emphasis on the national period,

00:50.705 --> 00:51.805
and it's really got a colorful,

00:51.805 --> 00:53.085
amazing national period history.

00:53.465 --> 00:55.285
So when I started delving into it, I'm like, wow,

00:55.285 --> 00:56.325
this is really good stuff.

00:56.625 --> 00:57.845
I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to run with it.

00:57.845 --> 00:59.365
But yeah, so it was actually a week.

00:59.545 --> 01:02.485
I'd never physically been in Peru in my life.

01:02.505 --> 01:05.045
In fact, before I started the book, truthfully, this is,

01:05.045 --> 01:09.935
this is a textbook, so synthesis, you know, so, I mean,

01:10.335 --> 01:11.615
I, a political animal.

01:11.655 --> 01:13.255
I thoroughly enjoyed my first trip.

01:13.415 --> 01:16.495
I was on the ground the week Pedro Castillo was inaugurated,

01:17.075 --> 01:20.655
and within, three hours of landing in Lima,

01:20.815 --> 01:23.095
I saw two fist fights up close,

01:23.595 --> 01:27.775
and I saw Abel Morales, the president of Bolivia, up close.

01:27.935 --> 01:29.175
I thought, well, this is gonna be a fun trip.

01:29.555 --> 01:31.535
Uh, so anyways, no Lima's a great

01:31.565 --> 01:32.975
city of 10 million people.

01:33.005 --> 01:34.695
It's invigorating. It's, it's a mess.

01:35.395 --> 01:37.535
Uh, and it, you know, it was a good adventure.

01:37.595 --> 01:39.855
But in terms of research, overwhelmingly

01:39.855 --> 01:42.495
what I was doing was reading the historiography,

01:42.555 --> 01:44.775
the secondary sources written by Peruvians,

01:44.775 --> 01:46.255
especially Peruvians in Spanish,

01:46.355 --> 01:48.935
but also English writers here in the United States

01:48.935 --> 01:50.735
with our massive academic establishment.

01:51.075 --> 01:54.135
And so really it's, you know, it's a synthesis book of, of,

01:54.235 --> 01:55.895
of research done by others.

01:56.095 --> 01:59.015
I really owe a great debt to the thick historiography

01:59.035 --> 02:01.335
of all the scholars that have worked on Peru.

02:01.755 --> 02:03.575
So, but it's, it's fun to synthesize.

02:03.795 --> 02:06.095
So, you know, it's, it's a little bit

02:06.095 --> 02:07.895
of a different challenge when you're writing a text ass

02:07.895 --> 02:09.175
opposed to narrow monographs.

02:09.315 --> 02:12.015
The truth is, monographs are sometimes so narrow

02:12.635 --> 02:16.375
and so focused that they evade an audience in effect.

02:16.395 --> 02:18.255
And I think that's very unfortunate.

02:18.435 --> 02:19.655
Uh, but it is what it is.

02:19.955 --> 02:21.095
So, one of my approaches

02:21.155 --> 02:23.095
to re I did three books early in my career.

02:23.715 --> 02:26.575
One of my approaches is I've reengage reengaged writing is

02:26.595 --> 02:28.175
to just do more synthesis

02:28.175 --> 02:30.935
and broader books looking for a more accessible audience.

02:31.355 --> 02:33.975
So hopefully it, it, you know, appeals to people

02:33.975 --> 02:35.575
who just want a basic introduction

02:35.575 --> 02:37.495
and understanding of Peru and its history.

02:37.495 --> 02:39.975
Post independence. Independence is a mess.

02:40.255 --> 02:43.015
I mean, it's, you obviously gotta start the book.

02:43.085 --> 02:44.735
Peru says Independence and Independence,

02:44.955 --> 02:46.415
but the truth of the matter is, it's a,

02:47.645 --> 02:48.775
it's a, it's a cluster.

02:48.925 --> 02:51.735
It's just a very confusing web of intrigue.

02:51.925 --> 02:53.975
There's this rhetoric of enlightenment,

02:54.315 --> 02:57.215
but on the rea on the ground, it's not the reality.

02:57.595 --> 02:58.775
So there's this disconnect

02:58.775 --> 03:00.165
You're trying to reconcile,

03:00.225 --> 03:02.445
and it's, it's really a kind of tricky period.

03:02.905 --> 03:04.765
So I, I like to write narrative.

03:04.805 --> 03:06.885
I like to write clear linear narrative.

03:07.145 --> 03:09.725
And you really can't do that with the wars of independence.

03:10.065 --> 03:12.725
You have to let it get messy and then back off

03:12.725 --> 03:14.765
and tell the reader, Hey, this is really messy.

03:15.305 --> 03:18.645
Uh, and because it, it is really a confusing epic.

03:19.185 --> 03:22.845
Uh, but, the bottom line is elite Leman

03:23.185 --> 03:25.605
or Peruvian Creole elite in the capital

03:25.825 --> 03:29.725
of Lima really didn't want any type of social revolution

03:29.985 --> 03:31.245
for the darker skinned people.

03:31.665 --> 03:34.205
And as a consequence, the, the break

03:34.205 --> 03:36.165
with Spain is very conservative

03:36.625 --> 03:38.525
as it is in most of Latin America.

03:38.785 --> 03:42.365
So it's a, it's a, it's a confusing epic that, you know,

03:42.365 --> 03:43.885
unfortunately it has to start the book.

03:44.005 --> 03:45.565
I think I synthesized it pretty well,

03:45.565 --> 03:48.325
but I couldn't do this ni nice, neat, tight, linear

03:48.995 --> 03:52.365
narrative that, that I like and that most readers like it.

03:52.365 --> 03:53.885
It's, it's kind of funny.

03:54.045 --> 03:55.805
I mean, in, in a way it's kind of sick.

03:55.805 --> 03:58.005
You have 11 presidents in six years,

03:58.005 --> 03:59.685
three constitutions in six years.

03:59.795 --> 04:01.205
It's just like, wow. And,

04:01.265 --> 04:04.525
and you know, at one point I say in, in that chapter,

04:04.985 --> 04:07.565
if you find this confusing how much the Peruvians, I mean,

04:07.565 --> 04:08.965
you know, this, this is a mess.

04:09.765 --> 04:11.525
I flew back, and,

04:11.625 --> 04:15.005
and watched firsthand some of the street chaos

04:15.225 --> 04:18.165
and protests, not the really bloody violence

04:18.345 --> 04:19.925
of this past January, February.

04:20.065 --> 04:21.165
It was before that, but,

04:21.385 --> 04:23.005
but there's a lot of tension on the streets.

04:23.225 --> 04:25.765
And I think Pedro Castillo's Rising fall really speaks

04:25.765 --> 04:27.125
to this divide that is Peru.

04:27.225 --> 04:30.205
He, it's a dark skinned indigenous descendant Highlander,

04:30.905 --> 04:32.605
and the power is on the coast

04:32.635 --> 04:36.565
with lighter skin mestizo population and the Lano elite.

04:36.745 --> 04:39.085
And, they, they would have nothing to do with them.

04:39.385 --> 04:41.565
So, he, his was,

04:41.785 --> 04:45.485
his short presidency is a commentary on Peruvian race

04:45.945 --> 04:49.405
and geographic divide racism, I'm sorry to say it,

04:49.545 --> 04:52.245
the country that I'm hyping here has a, has a race problem.

04:52.825 --> 04:55.405
Um, my country, the United States arguably does too, but,

04:55.465 --> 04:56.765
but not, not at this level.

04:56.915 --> 04:57.965
It's, it's pretty epic.

04:58.505 --> 05:01.325
So Pedro Castillo is a man who just was not acceptable

05:01.325 --> 05:04.805
to the lighter skinned political class and,

05:05.145 --> 05:06.925
and ultimately is brought down because of that.

05:07.025 --> 05:10.565
But the tensions are, are still there

05:10.625 --> 05:12.445
and still an unresolved issue.

05:12.445 --> 05:14.005
Where this goes, it's gonna be interesting.

05:14.085 --> 05:15.685
I think it makes my book a little bit relevant.

05:15.835 --> 05:19.325
When I did my Mexico text, I did, I stopped it at year 2000.

05:19.395 --> 05:20.765
I've gotten some criticism for that.

05:20.785 --> 05:22.405
So this time I determined to bring it right up

05:22.405 --> 05:24.245
to the present and wrestle with what you,

05:24.305 --> 05:25.685
you political scientists do

05:26.225 --> 05:28.445
and look at, some of the contemporary politics.

05:28.825 --> 05:30.805
One of the features of the book that I, I like,

05:30.805 --> 05:34.925
that I created, it's a little novel, is there's 17 chapters,

05:34.925 --> 05:37.365
but five standalone chapters on life and culture.

05:37.945 --> 05:41.285
And I actually try to avoid straight up social history

05:41.285 --> 05:43.165
because a lot of us historians, a lot of us

05:43.165 --> 05:46.485
who teach history like to assign, readings

05:46.485 --> 05:48.685
that are exclusively on social history.

05:49.145 --> 05:51.525
So I actually divorced it from social history,

05:51.525 --> 05:53.725
but I engage with call, I call life and culture.

05:53.885 --> 05:57.005
I look at popular culture, the rise of radio, television.

05:57.155 --> 06:00.405
Peru has a marvelous film industry, modest in size,

06:00.465 --> 06:03.285
but they produced great films in the last really 50 years.

06:03.785 --> 06:07.525
Uh, and, and so, poetry, literature, deep,

06:07.755 --> 06:08.845
tradition in art.

06:09.305 --> 06:11.125
So I engage that in these five standalone

06:11.125 --> 06:12.405
chapters that I think are pretty fun.

06:12.865 --> 06:15.805
Uh, and I think ultimately I want to attract,

06:16.005 --> 06:17.885
a readership that, you know, recognizes

06:17.905 --> 06:20.445
as Peru is such an important piece

06:20.445 --> 06:21.565
of the Latin America puzzle.

06:21.825 --> 06:23.965
Not just in the colonial and ancient times,

06:24.185 --> 06:26.365
but right at into contemporary times.

06:26.515 --> 06:29.685
It's had it's reverberated politically with tensions

06:29.685 --> 06:32.165
that we see across the subcontinent across South

06:32.165 --> 06:33.765
America and beyond.

06:33.985 --> 06:35.805
And, and Russell's also with,

06:35.805 --> 06:39.325
and as a, is a poignant commentary on the challenges

06:39.325 --> 06:40.525
of third world countries.

06:40.785 --> 06:43.165
And so, I think that, you know, is an invitation

06:43.185 --> 06:46.525
to study this intriguing nation and see where it goes.

06:47.165 --> 06:47.285
I.

00:00 - Covid, truthfully, this is a Covid book. So when Covid hit, I kind of was stalled out. I couldn't travel, classes went online, didn't have much to do, didn't at home. So I decided to write a new book. I'd done a textbook on Mexico for the same press,

00:13 - Roman in Middlefield, and I enjoyed doing it. And I decided this, this time I looked a little bit more at the market, my Mexico book, which came out in 2020. There's like 13 textbooks on Mexico. no one had done Peru since independence for about 20 years, so in English. So I was game to give it a try and just started prolifically reading about Peru and conceptualizing the book.

00:35 - The truth is, I was trying to turn one of my weaknesses into my strengths. I, I've not really worked on Peru and Peruvian history's really thick on ancient Peru, the Inca, it's really thick on the epic colonial period. but there's not much emphasis on the national period, and it's really got a colorful, amazing national period history. So when I started delving into it, I'm like, wow, this is really good stuff.

00:56 - I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to run with it. But yeah, so it was actually a week. I'd never physically been in Peru in my life. In fact, before I started the book, truthfully, this is, this is a textbook, so synthesis, you know, so, I mean, I, a political animal. I thoroughly enjoyed my first trip. I was on the ground the week Pedro Castillo was inaugurated, and within, three hours of landing in Lima, I saw two fist fights up close,

01:23 - and I saw Abel Morales, the president of Bolivia, up close. I thought, well, this is gonna be a fun trip. so anyways, no Lima's a great city of 10 million people. It's invigorating. It's, it's a mess. and it, you know, it was a good adventure. But in terms of research, overwhelmingly what I was doing was reading the historiography, the secondary sources written by Peruvians, especially Peruvians in Spanish,

01:46 - but also English writers here in the United States with our massive academic establishment. And so really it's, you know, it's a synthesis book of, of, of research done by others. I really owe a great debt to the thick historiography of all the scholars that have worked on Peru. So, but it's, it's fun to synthesize. So, you know, it's, it's a little bit of a different challenge when you're writing a text ass opposed to narrow monographs.

02:09 - The truth is, monographs are sometimes so narrow and so focused that they evade an audience in effect. And I think that's very unfortunate. but it is what it is. So, one of my approaches to re I did three books early in my career. One of my approaches is I've reengage reengaged writing is to just do more synthesis and broader books looking for a more accessible audience. So hopefully it, it, you know, appeals to people

02:33 - who just want a basic introduction and understanding of Peru and its history. Post independence. Independence is a mess. I mean, it's, you obviously gotta start the book. Peru says Independence and Independence, but the truth of the matter is, it's a, it's a, it's a cluster. It's just a very confusing web of intrigue. There's this rhetoric of enlightenment, but on the rea on the ground, it's not the reality.

02:57 - So there's this disconnect You're trying to reconcile, and it's, it's really a kind of tricky period. So I, I like to write narrative. I like to write clear linear narrative. And you really can't do that with the wars of independence. You have to let it get messy and then back off and tell the reader, Hey, this is really messy. and because it, it is really a confusing epic. but, the bottom line is elite Leman

03:23 - or Peruvian Creole elite in the capital of Lima really didn't want any type of social revolution for the darker skinned people. And as a consequence, the, the break with Spain is very conservative as it is in most of Latin America. So it's a, it's a, it's a confusing epic that, you know, unfortunately it has to start the book. I think I synthesized it pretty well, but I couldn't do this ni nice, neat, tight, linear

03:48 - narrative that, that I like and that most readers like it. It's, it's kind of funny. I mean, in, in a way it's kind of sick. You have 11 presidents in six years, three constitutions in six years. It's just like, wow. And, and you know, at one point I say in, in that chapter, if you find this confusing how much the Peruvians, I mean, you know, this, this is a mess. I flew back, and,

04:11 - and watched firsthand some of the street chaos and protests, not the really bloody violence of this past January, February. It was before that, but, but there's a lot of tension on the streets. And I think Pedro Castillo's Rising fall really speaks to this divide that is Peru. He, it's a dark skinned indigenous descendant Highlander, and the power is on the coast with lighter skin mestizo population and the Lano elite.

04:36 - And, they, they would have nothing to do with them. So, he, his was, his short presidency is a commentary on Peruvian race and geographic divide racism, I'm sorry to say it, the country that I'm hyping here has a, has a race problem. my country, the United States arguably does too, but, but not, not at this level. It's, it's pretty epic. So Pedro Castillo is a man who just was not acceptable to the lighter skinned political class and,

05:05 - and ultimately is brought down because of that. But the tensions are, are still there and still an unresolved issue. Where this goes, it's gonna be interesting. I think it makes my book a little bit relevant. When I did my Mexico text, I did, I stopped it at year 2000. I've gotten some criticism for that. So this time I determined to bring it right up to the present and wrestle with what you, you political scientists do

05:26 - and look at, some of the contemporary politics. One of the features of the book that I, I like, that I created, it's a little novel, is there's 17 chapters, but five standalone chapters on life and culture. And I actually try to avoid straight up social history because a lot of us historians, a lot of us who teach history like to assign, readings that are exclusively on social history. So I actually divorced it from social history, but I engage with call, I call life and culture.

05:53 - I look at popular culture, the rise of radio, television. Peru has a marvelous film industry, modest in size, but they produced great films in the last really 50 years. and, and so, poetry, literature, deep, tradition in art. So I engage that in these five standalone chapters that I think are pretty fun. and I think ultimately I want to attract, a readership that, you know, recognizes as Peru is such an important piece

06:20 - of the Latin America puzzle. Not just in the colonial and ancient times, but right at into contemporary times. It's had it's reverberated politically with tensions that we see across the subcontinent across South America and beyond. And, and Russell's also with, and as a, is a poignant commentary on the challenges of third world countries. And so, I think that, you know, is an invitation

06:43 - to study this intriguing nation and see where it goes. I.

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