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Bethany Hughes discusses the character of the “Stage Indian” in American theater and its racial and political impact

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 30, 2024

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This video is an interview discussing the motivations, research, and findings related to the book on "Red Face" in American theater. The speaker, a professor and a member of the Choctaw Nation, reflects on their academic journey, starting from a personal interest in Native American representation in theater while pursuing a graduate degree. The conversation emphasizes the lack of scholarly focus on "Red Face," contrasting it with the extensive discourse surrounding "Blackface," and argues for a deeper understanding of racial representations in theater.

The term "Red Face" is described as a collaborative process involving artists and audiences to define what constitutes an "Indian" portrayal in theater, focusing on casting, costuming, and the underlying meanings beyond mere appearances. The speaker outlines their research methodology, which involved analyzing plays that feature Native American characters across history, and highlights the shifting portrayal of these characters from noble representations in the early 19th century to more negative stereotypes by the end of the century and into the 20th century.

Key findings include the use of Native American characters to explore broader American identities and challenges, as well as how portrayals have evolved in response to societal changes. The speaker emphasizes the impact of these representations beyond theater, particularly how they shape public perceptions and influence political responsibilities regarding tribal sovereignty. The professor aims for readers to be more critical of the representations they encounter in media and acknowledges ongoing projects, including a digital database on "Red Face" performances and research on Native American representation in German theater.

Overall, the interview underscores the importance of understanding and critically engaging with the portrayal of Native Americans in theater and its wider implications in society.

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Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Intersection of Native Identity and Theater**: The speaker, a member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, discusses their interest in how Native Americans are represented in theater, particularly focusing on the absence of discussions surrounding "Red Face" compared to the robust dialogues on "blackface" in American theater.

2. **Red Face as a Concept**: The speaker defines "Red Face" as a collaborative curatorial process involving both artists and audiences to create representations of Native American identities. This process goes beyond mere costume and casting practices, emphasizing the importance of understanding the political and social implications behind these representations.

3. **Historical Convideo of Native Representation**: The speaker traces the evolution of Native American characters in American theater from the early 19th century to the present, highlighting how these characters have been used to reflect societal views and challenges within the convideo of American history, such as westward expansion and its implications for Native peoples.

4. **Impact on Tribal Sovereignty and Identity**: The reduction of Native identities to generic racial figures undermines tribal sovereignty and political identity. The speaker argues that focusing solely on racial identity diminishes the complex sociopolitical realities of Native American communities, including their governance and cultural distinctiveness.

5. **Future Projects and Digital Resources**: The speaker mentions ongoing projects, including a digital database on performances involving "Red Face," which aims to document historical representations of Native Americans in theater. This resource will help facilitate understanding of how these characters have been portrayed and the implications for both Native and non-Native populations. Additionally, the speaker is exploring Native American representation in German theater convideos.

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Here are some key quotes from the video that encapsulate the main ideas and themes discussed:

1. **Intersection of Identity and Theater**:
- "As a graduate student, I was really interested in how Native Americans intersected with the field or the genre of theater."

2. **Lack of Scholarly Focus on Native American Representation**:
- "I found that there wasn't much of a field there... there was an absence of an articulation of what Red Face was."

3. **Understanding Red Face**:
- "It's actually really important to be able to articulate what is red face in a way that's different than blackface."

4. **Collaborative Nature of Red Face**:
- "I describe it as a collaborative curatorial process... a group effort between artists and audiences."

5. **Role of Native Characters in Theater**:
- "Indian characters are by and large used to articulate main characters, understandings, identities, obstacles, challenges, overcoming."

6. **Changing Perceptions Over Time**:
- "By the end of the 19th century, the Indian is no longer sort of a noble figure that everybody admires. It becomes a really savage... obstacle to expansion."

7. **Impact of Racialization**:
- "If you boil everything down to just a racial identity, you're foreclosing the conversations around tribal nationhood."

8. **Consequences of Misrepresentation**:
- "What a really clear racialized figure does is that it denies tribal sovereignty and nationhood... it undermines the ability of tribes to rule themselves."

9. **Missed Opportunities in Understanding Characters**:
- "If you just stop at, Hey, here's the way that a racialized Indian figure exists on the American theater stage, you’re missing the point."

10. **The Importance of Accurate Representation**:
- "I want to choose, actually I don't wanna invest my time in watching things that rehash a generic racial figure that I know isn't accurate."

These quotes highlight the critical discussions surrounding Native American representation in theater, the impact of racialization, and the importance of understanding the political implications of identity and representation.

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Here are some articles that discuss similar themes regarding representation in theater, race, and cultural identity:

1. **"Blackface, White Noise: The Historical and Theatrical Convideo of Racial Representations"**
This article examines the historical evolution of Blackface in American theater, drawing comparisons to "Red Face" and highlighting the importance of understanding how racial portrayals shape societal perceptions and identities.

2. **"The Challenges of Representation: Indigenous Voices in Contemporary Theater"**
This piece focuses on the representation of Native American voices in modern theater, analyzing the impact of misrepresentation and the efforts of Indigenous artists to reclaim narratives.

3. **"Performing Identity: Racial Stereotypes and Their Impact on American Theater"**
An analytical exploration of how racial stereotypes are perpetuated in theater productions and the societal implications of these portrayals on audiences' understanding of diverse cultural identities.

4. **"The Politics of Portrayal: Native American Representation in Media and Theater"**
This article delves into the intersection of theater, media, and Native American identities, discussing how portrayals have shifted over time and the implications for tribal sovereignty and identity politics.

5. **"Reimagining the Stage: Native American Theater and Cultural Authenticity"**
A discussion about the resurgence of Native American theater companies and their role in challenging existing narratives, emphasizing authenticity in representation and the importance of community involvement in storytelling.

6. **"The Legacy of Stereotypes: Racial Representation in American Drama"**
An examination of various racial representations in American drama, including "Blackface" and "Red Face," addressing the socio-historical convideo and the ongoing relevance of these discussions in contemporary theater.

7. **"Mediating Tradition: Native American Performances and Cultural Representation"**
This article focuses on traditional storytelling and performances by Native American artists, highlighting how they negotiate cultural representation within the convideo of contemporary theater.

8. **"Critiquing the Stage: Analyzing Racial Representation in Theatrical Practices"**
A critical look at how theater companies approach racial representation today, encouraging audiences to think critically about the narratives being presented and their historical backgrounds.

These articles can provide further insights into the complex issues of race, identity, and representation in theater, paralleling the themes addressed in the interview about "Red Face."

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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As a graduate student, I was really interested in

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how Native Americans intersected with the, the field

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or the genre of theater.

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Um, that was my background.

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And, you know, I was a theater major in college

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and I worked some as a performer

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and did some, choreography and directing.

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Um, and as a member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma

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as a Native American person, I was really trying to grapple

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with like, how do these things fit together?

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Um, and so in graduate school, I had the opportunity to sort

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of read into the field,

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and find that there wasn't much of a field there.

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There was,

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a conversation about racial representation in American

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theater and in global,

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but you know, in American theater is what I focus on.

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Um, blackface was talked about a lot.

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There was a lot of literature, a lot of conversations,

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that continues.

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It's a really robust conversation for decades.

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And there was an absence of an articulation of

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what Red Face was, what it works like,

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what are the similarities,

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but what are the distinctions between blackface red face?

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I know there are other scholars working on yellow

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face and brown face.

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I, I explained that these have similar technologies

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of racialization, but they actually have different political

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impacts and social impacts.

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And so it's actually really important to be able

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to articulate what is red face in a way

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that's different than blackface.

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Um, and to be able to talk about

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how those two things are similar.

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Red face. Um, I describe it

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as a collaborative curatorial process.

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So this is a, a team project, right?

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It's a group effort between artists and audiences.

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Um, and together what they're doing is they're coming

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to an agreement about what a legibly Indian,

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and by Indian I mean that racial sort

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of generic homogenous category,

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what allegedly Indian body is on stage.

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Um, a lot of the conversation, within the business

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of theater is about red face, either as a casting practice,

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who gets to play Native American roles and who doesn't

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or about a costuming practice, what kind

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of makeup is being worn, what kind

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of costume pieces are there, feathers?

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Are there beads. Um,

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and what I do is really push through that.

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Not, I don't discount it,

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but I really push to see what's behind it.

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Um, that it's not a surface level technology.

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It's not about what people put on their bodies.

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It's really this curatorial, what pieces are here,

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how do audiences understand meaning what kind

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of artists are drawing meaning,

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how they create this thing together,

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and really pushing this collaborative process driven

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definition rather than a static material object definition.

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My research starting point was plays

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with Native American characters.

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Um, I refer to them regularly as Indian.

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Um, I define that word very narrowly

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as a generic homogenous, racialized identity.

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Native Americans, I tend to use

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to talk about indigenous peoples

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from, what is now called

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North America or the United States.

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So, so I just started reading a bunch of plays

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with Indian characters,

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starting in the early 19th century moving forward, just

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to get a sense of how do these characters show up

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and what's happening, dramatically dramaturgically,

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what kinds of costume pieces are being used,

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how they're talked about, what do these

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characters do for a story.

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Um, and then started tracing, the

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material technologies, right?

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Like the costume pieces and the makeup,

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and tracing the dramaturgical logics, right?

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How do Indian characters function in dramatic marks?

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How do these characters get developed or underdeveloped

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and to what purposes?

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Um, and so then it expanded across the 19th century into the

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20th century, and specifically in ways.

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Um, there's a case study at the, the last chapter

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of the book about Annie Get Your Gun.

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Uh, it's a 1946 Broadway musical,

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and there's a 1999 revival that tried to fix red face.

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Um, and so by sort of working backwards,

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what did they change that helps us understand

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how they diagnosed the problem, right?

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What actually did they think Red Face was?

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And so they tried to solve it.

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Um, and, and through

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that I can help articulate why Red Face persists,

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because we've misdiagnosed the problem for so long.

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Indian characters are by

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and large used to articulate main characters,

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understandings, identities, obstacles,

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challenges, overcoming, right?

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They're primarily used as something to bounce off of.

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Um, in the early 19th century, they were used as a way

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for sort of American theater artists

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and American audiences to think through what does it mean

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to form a nation in this time and place, right?

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We're talking about like, you know,

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the US is a couple decades old, maybe,

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by the time Indians are starting to appear, right?

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And so they're really working through like what comes

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before us and how do we connect to that.

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So it's a really noble, kind of Indian figure.

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Um, that's vanishing sort of in the face of the

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superior civilization kind of thing.

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By the end of the 19th century, the dramaturgical logic

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of it shifts some, it's still in service to sort

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of a broader American, social or cultural story.

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But by the end of the 19th century, the US has

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survived quite a bit across the 19th century

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and is feeling a little bit stronger

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about its own sense of self.

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And the stories that become really meaningful

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are those wild West stories.

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How was the West one? How did we expand? How did we settle?

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How did we overcome?

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Uh, and Indians are really one

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of the regular things we overcome, right?

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Um, there's natural obstacle like, you know, tornadoes

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and fires and things like that,

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but this like human obstacle

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to American western expansion is the Indian.

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And so by the end of the 19th century, the Indian is

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No longer sort of a noble figure that everybody admires.

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It becomes a really savage, really violent, obstacle

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to expansion,

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and in the 20th century that that carries on some,

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but it starts morphing as the Western becomes more

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of a radio television film genre

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and less prominent in theatrical performances.

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Um, so then across the 20th century,

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the Indian becomes another way for the US to, deal

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with our own failings.

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Um, right in the post Vietnam era, 1970s

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and eighties, the Indian becomes a really sympathetic figure

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that is, revelatory of American failings.

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Uh, it connects to sort of American guilt

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for the sins of the past.

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Um, and those are the kinds of things

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that are started shipped.

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So the Indian stays the same in

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that it's always a generic racial figure,

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and it's always the thing that America is sort

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of bouncing off of to understand itself.

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But the character changes from sort

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of a sympathetic character to a really villain character

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to a, to a sympathetic character.

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Again. Um, and this is

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what like the 99 Revival Annie Get Your Gun Does,

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is it's a very sympathetic portrayal

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of Native American characters as,

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as the show itself is trying to work

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through its its racist performance history.

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This is, a really important point

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the book is trying to make.

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Um, there's definitely a gap in the literature about

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articulating what exactly are the pieces of Red Face.

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Um, but if you just stop at, Hey, here's the way

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that a racialized Indian figure exists on the American

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theater stage, you're missing the point.

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Really what that racialized Indian does

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beyond the theater space is the thing

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that is really impactful in native and non-native lives.

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So what the Indian does is on stage is create a very

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clear racialized figure.

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And what a really clear racialized figure

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that we know Native American is a race.

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You can check a box on the census form,

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you can say you're Native American.

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What that does is that denies tribal sovereignty

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and nationhood the political aspect

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of Native American identity

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and belonging into the land that we are from is

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because we have governing structures, we have languages,

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we have cultures, we have all of these things, right?

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Um, and though precontact trust history might not articulate

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the nation state in the same kind of way,

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but there are treaties and there are laws and that, right?

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Like all of these kinds of things.

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And so if you boil everything down

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to just a racial identity,

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you're foreclosing the conversations

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around tribal nationhood,

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and particularly in the us what

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that does is it forecloses the US responsibility

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as a state to state a government

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to government relationship, right?

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And so it undermines the ability of tribes to rule

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Themselves to articulate their own needs, to go

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after their own futures, to protect their citizens.

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If all you do is boil it down to the race.

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And so this is the impact,

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and it shows up in some like interesting kinds of ways.

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Things like the census, the US census, the, you know, the,

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the every 10 years.

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Um, it used to be enumerators, right?

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They like literally walk around

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and they write people's names down

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and they have a form to fill out.

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And the enumerators decide who's race identity.

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And the enumerators had very significant control over

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who gets counted as Indian or not.

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And who gets counted as Indian gets connected to things like

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how much funding goes to tribes who have like relationships

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with the US government, right?

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So getting counted is one of these ways that

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US theater culture teaches people how

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to recognize actual human living bodies as Indians.

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And then that information gets exported

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and utilized in day-to-day interactions that are sometimes,

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sort of medium stakes like census

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and sometimes really high stakes.

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So in the book I talk about a 1806,

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law law lawsuit in Virginia called Hudgens V Rights.

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Um, and it was a case of women in a family who were being,

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accused perhaps is the right word,

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of being African American and thus enslaved.

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This is like 1806 in Virginia, so they should be slaves.

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And these women were actually articulating and advocating

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and saying, we're actually not African American, were Native

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American and therefore we should be free people.

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And the entire case is about deciding whether these women

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are African American or Native American.

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And it comes down

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to the judge is basically says things like their hair

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texture, their skin tone,

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and their sort of cultural practices, but hair texture

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and skin tone, the shape of their face,

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those like really physical characteristics

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that are mapped onto human bodies

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become this high stakes moment of are you free?

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Are you unfree? And it's based on this like racial identity.

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Um, and so this is the way that recognizing together groups

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of people making decisions about who gets counted as Indian

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or not can have really high stakes, impact

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for native and non-native clear sense of what to look for

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and how to make choices about their own viewing habits

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or their own entertainment consumption based on that, right?

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So that they get familiar with the kinds of tropes

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that get utilized in American theater and,

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and entertainment more broadly.

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Um, you know, things like film and television,

11:39.015 --> 11:40.395
and that they're able to, to

11:41.155 --> 11:43.155
recognize when they're seeing something

11:43.215 --> 11:46.675
that's providing them the Indian rather than

11:47.715 --> 11:51.235
a complex indigenous Native American character

11:51.325 --> 11:52.595
story, right? So

11:52.785 --> 11:56.165
Part of the project of the book is to introduce

11:56.165 --> 11:57.565
to people the facts

11:57.825 --> 12:01.165
and the presence of indigenous theater performers

12:01.305 --> 12:03.085
and performing artists of lots

12:03.085 --> 12:06.445
of different kinds from oratory to vaudeville,

12:06.785 --> 12:10.085
across this entire span of American theater history, right?

12:10.115 --> 12:14.605
Like Native Americans have participated in commercial

12:14.605 --> 12:18.915
theater culture, they have participated in theatrical

12:18.915 --> 12:20.515
what be like western theatrical

12:20.515 --> 12:22.155
forms for a couple hundred years.

12:22.235 --> 12:23.435
I mean, like, this is not new.

12:23.895 --> 12:27.035
Um, and so that's the other thing is that the,

12:27.095 --> 12:29.675
the reader would take away both an understanding of

12:29.875 --> 12:34.155
what it is and some idea about what to look for, so

12:34.155 --> 12:35.315
that if you want to choose,

12:35.795 --> 12:38.915
actually I don't wanna invest my time in watching things

12:39.185 --> 12:43.315
that rehash, you know, a generic racial figure

12:43.345 --> 12:45.995
that I know isn't actually either one is accurate

12:46.055 --> 12:49.235
or as interesting, frankly as, you know,

12:49.235 --> 12:51.235
fully fleshed indigenous characters and stories.

12:51.455 --> 12:54.755
So my current ongoing project related

12:54.775 --> 12:58.595
to this is a digital database on red face performances.

12:58.975 --> 13:01.355
So it's not live yet, it'll probably be live

13:01.415 --> 13:02.755
by the end of the year or winter.

13:03.175 --> 13:05.195
Um, and this, this came about

13:05.195 --> 13:07.035
as my like just reading a bunch of plays

13:07.035 --> 13:08.075
with Indian characters

13:08.695 --> 13:11.395
and there are hundreds,

13:11.915 --> 13:14.995
I think we're in like the 760 range now

13:15.335 --> 13:17.875
of plays over the last few hundred years

13:18.145 --> 13:20.355
that have Indian characters in them.

13:21.455 --> 13:24.395
Um, and so that project is coming together,

13:24.395 --> 13:28.035
and people will be able to see the locations in the us.

13:28.375 --> 13:31.275
Um, right now it's primarily East Coast Theater City.

13:31.275 --> 13:32.915
That's the best sort of archival,

13:33.195 --> 13:34.955
re the resources we have right now.

13:35.295 --> 13:36.715
Um, but you'll be able to see like

13:36.715 --> 13:39.035
what plays are being produced, who, like

13:39.035 --> 13:41.115
what theater companies are producing these plays,

13:41.385 --> 13:45.075
what years are they happening, how frequently, you know,

13:45.105 --> 13:47.755
there's a very popular play called Metamora

13:47.755 --> 13:49.155
that was written in 1829

13:49.535 --> 13:51.475
and it traveled all across the country

13:51.775 --> 13:53.155
and it played for decades and decades,

13:53.215 --> 13:54.755
and you'll be able to like look like

13:54.765 --> 13:55.795
where is this happening?

13:55.935 --> 13:59.235
So I'm, the next step is to give people tools to do sort

13:59.235 --> 14:02.035
of their own research, to find out like how,

14:02.535 --> 14:05.115
how frequently did people where I'm from,

14:05.975 --> 14:08.515
how frequently were theater audiences able

14:08.575 --> 14:11.915
to like encounter these characters and see these Indians.

14:12.175 --> 14:15.155
Um, and so that's the ongoing thing that that comes along

14:15.185 --> 14:16.715
with this particular research.

14:17.135 --> 14:19.845
Um, and I have, another project

14:19.845 --> 14:22.205
that is at the very early stages,

14:22.375 --> 14:25.325
which is years down the road about,

14:25.545 --> 14:28.765
native American representation in German theatrical forms.

14:29.035 --> 14:31.885
Primarily the outdoor festivals, the OU Festivals.

14:32.685 --> 14:36.065
So, that's another thing that I'm planning for.

14:36.285 --> 14:38.265
Um, I haven't published anything on it yet.

14:38.485 --> 14:42.385
Um, but that's sort of the exploitation of Red Face,

14:42.605 --> 14:45.385
and what happens when Red Face is not in America,

14:45.965 --> 14:49.785
but the characters are deeply connected to North America.

00:00 - As a graduate student, I was really interested in how Native Americans intersected with the, the field or the genre of theater. that was my background. And, you know, I was a theater major in college and I worked some as a performer

00:14 - and did some, choreography and directing. and as a member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma as a Native American person, I was really trying to grapple with like, how do these things fit together? and so in graduate school, I had the opportunity to sort of read into the field, and find that there wasn't much of a field there. There was, a conversation about racial representation in American theater and in global,

00:40 - but you know, in American theater is what I focus on. blackface was talked about a lot. There was a lot of literature, a lot of conversations, that continues. It's a really robust conversation for decades. And there was an absence of an articulation of what Red Face was, what it works like, what are the similarities, but what are the distinctions between blackface red face? I know there are other scholars working on yellow

01:05 - face and brown face. I, I explained that these have similar technologies of racialization, but they actually have different political impacts and social impacts. And so it's actually really important to be able to articulate what is red face in a way that's different than blackface. and to be able to talk about how those two things are similar. Red face. I describe it

01:28 - as a collaborative curatorial process. So this is a, a team project, right? It's a group effort between artists and audiences. and together what they're doing is they're coming to an agreement about what a legibly Indian, and by Indian I mean that racial sort of generic homogenous category, what allegedly Indian body is on stage. a lot of the conversation, within the business of theater is about red face, either as a casting practice,

01:58 - who gets to play Native American roles and who doesn't or about a costuming practice, what kind of makeup is being worn, what kind of costume pieces are there, feathers? Are there beads. and what I do is really push through that. Not, I don't discount it, but I really push to see what's behind it. that it's not a surface level technology. It's not about what people put on their bodies.

02:21 - It's really this curatorial, what pieces are here, how do audiences understand meaning what kind of artists are drawing meaning, how they create this thing together, and really pushing this collaborative process driven definition rather than a static material object definition. My research starting point was plays with Native American characters. I refer to them regularly as Indian. I define that word very narrowly

02:51 - as a generic homogenous, racialized identity. Native Americans, I tend to use to talk about indigenous peoples from, what is now called North America or the United States. So, so I just started reading a bunch of plays with Indian characters, starting in the early 19th century moving forward, just to get a sense of how do these characters show up and what's happening, dramatically dramaturgically,

03:14 - what kinds of costume pieces are being used, how they're talked about, what do these characters do for a story. and then started tracing, the material technologies, right? Like the costume pieces and the makeup, and tracing the dramaturgical logics, right? How do Indian characters function in dramatic marks? How do these characters get developed or underdeveloped and to what purposes?

03:41 - and so then it expanded across the 19th century into the 20th century, and specifically in ways. there's a case study at the, the last chapter of the book about Annie Get Your Gun. it's a 1946 Broadway musical, and there's a 1999 revival that tried to fix red face. and so by sort of working backwards, what did they change that helps us understand how they diagnosed the problem, right? What actually did they think Red Face was?

04:11 - And so they tried to solve it. and, and through that I can help articulate why Red Face persists, because we've misdiagnosed the problem for so long. Indian characters are by and large used to articulate main characters, understandings, identities, obstacles, challenges, overcoming, right? They're primarily used as something to bounce off of. in the early 19th century, they were used as a way

04:40 - for sort of American theater artists and American audiences to think through what does it mean to form a nation in this time and place, right? We're talking about like, you know, the US is a couple decades old, maybe, by the time Indians are starting to appear, right? And so they're really working through like what comes before us and how do we connect to that. So it's a really noble, kind of Indian figure. that's vanishing sort of in the face of the

05:07 - superior civilization kind of thing. By the end of the 19th century, the dramaturgical logic of it shifts some, it's still in service to sort of a broader American, social or cultural story. But by the end of the 19th century, the US has survived quite a bit across the 19th century and is feeling a little bit stronger about its own sense of self. And the stories that become really meaningful are those wild West stories.

05:34 - How was the West one? How did we expand? How did we settle? How did we overcome? and Indians are really one of the regular things we overcome, right? there's natural obstacle like, you know, tornadoes and fires and things like that, but this like human obstacle to American western expansion is the Indian. And so by the end of the 19th century, the Indian is No longer sort of a noble figure that everybody admires.

05:59 - It becomes a really savage, really violent, obstacle to expansion, and in the 20th century that that carries on some, but it starts morphing as the Western becomes more of a radio television film genre and less prominent in theatrical performances. so then across the 20th century, the Indian becomes another way for the US to, deal with our own failings. right in the post Vietnam era, 1970s

06:30 - and eighties, the Indian becomes a really sympathetic figure that is, revelatory of American failings. it connects to sort of American guilt for the sins of the past. and those are the kinds of things that are started shipped. So the Indian stays the same in that it's always a generic racial figure, and it's always the thing that America is sort of bouncing off of to understand itself.

06:56 - But the character changes from sort of a sympathetic character to a really villain character to a, to a sympathetic character. Again. and this is what like the 99 Revival Annie Get Your Gun Does, is it's a very sympathetic portrayal of Native American characters as, as the show itself is trying to work through its its racist performance history. This is, a really important point

07:19 - the book is trying to make. there's definitely a gap in the literature about articulating what exactly are the pieces of Red Face. but if you just stop at, Hey, here's the way that a racialized Indian figure exists on the American theater stage, you're missing the point. Really what that racialized Indian does beyond the theater space is the thing that is really impactful in native and non-native lives. So what the Indian does is on stage is create a very

07:51 - clear racialized figure. And what a really clear racialized figure that we know Native American is a race. You can check a box on the census form, you can say you're Native American. What that does is that denies tribal sovereignty and nationhood the political aspect of Native American identity and belonging into the land that we are from is because we have governing structures, we have languages,

08:17 - we have cultures, we have all of these things, right? and though precontact trust history might not articulate the nation state in the same kind of way, but there are treaties and there are laws and that, right? Like all of these kinds of things. And so if you boil everything down to just a racial identity, you're foreclosing the conversations around tribal nationhood, and particularly in the us what

08:41 - that does is it forecloses the US responsibility as a state to state a government to government relationship, right? And so it undermines the ability of tribes to rule Themselves to articulate their own needs, to go after their own futures, to protect their citizens. If all you do is boil it down to the race. And so this is the impact, and it shows up in some like interesting kinds of ways. Things like the census, the US census, the, you know, the,

09:11 - the every 10 years. it used to be enumerators, right? They like literally walk around and they write people's names down and they have a form to fill out. And the enumerators decide who's race identity. And the enumerators had very significant control over who gets counted as Indian or not. And who gets counted as Indian gets connected to things like how much funding goes to tribes who have like relationships

09:37 - with the US government, right? So getting counted is one of these ways that US theater culture teaches people how to recognize actual human living bodies as Indians. And then that information gets exported and utilized in day-to-day interactions that are sometimes, sort of medium stakes like census and sometimes really high stakes. So in the book I talk about a 1806, law law lawsuit in Virginia called Hudgens V Rights.

10:07 - and it was a case of women in a family who were being, accused perhaps is the right word, of being African American and thus enslaved. This is like 1806 in Virginia, so they should be slaves. And these women were actually articulating and advocating and saying, we're actually not African American, were Native American and therefore we should be free people. And the entire case is about deciding whether these women are African American or Native American. And it comes down

10:39 - to the judge is basically says things like their hair texture, their skin tone, and their sort of cultural practices, but hair texture and skin tone, the shape of their face, those like really physical characteristics that are mapped onto human bodies become this high stakes moment of are you free? Are you unfree? And it's based on this like racial identity. and so this is the way that recognizing together groups of people making decisions about who gets counted as Indian

11:09 - or not can have really high stakes, impact for native and non-native clear sense of what to look for and how to make choices about their own viewing habits or their own entertainment consumption based on that, right? So that they get familiar with the kinds of tropes that get utilized in American theater and, and entertainment more broadly. you know, things like film and television, and that they're able to, to recognize when they're seeing something

11:43 - that's providing them the Indian rather than a complex indigenous Native American character story, right? So Part of the project of the book is to introduce to people the facts and the presence of indigenous theater performers and performing artists of lots of different kinds from oratory to vaudeville, across this entire span of American theater history, right? Like Native Americans have participated in commercial

12:14 - theater culture, they have participated in theatrical what be like western theatrical forms for a couple hundred years. I mean, like, this is not new. and so that's the other thing is that the, the reader would take away both an understanding of what it is and some idea about what to look for, so that if you want to choose, actually I don't wanna invest my time in watching things that rehash, you know, a generic racial figure

12:43 - that I know isn't actually either one is accurate or as interesting, frankly as, you know, fully fleshed indigenous characters and stories. So my current ongoing project related to this is a digital database on red face performances. So it's not live yet, it'll probably be live by the end of the year or winter. and this, this came about as my like just reading a bunch of plays with Indian characters

13:08 - and there are hundreds, I think we're in like the 760 range now of plays over the last few hundred years that have Indian characters in them. and so that project is coming together, and people will be able to see the locations in the us. right now it's primarily East Coast Theater City. That's the best sort of archival, re the resources we have right now. but you'll be able to see like

13:36 - what plays are being produced, who, like what theater companies are producing these plays, what years are they happening, how frequently, you know, there's a very popular play called Metamora that was written in 1829 and it traveled all across the country and it played for decades and decades, and you'll be able to like look like where is this happening? So I'm, the next step is to give people tools to do sort

13:59 - of their own research, to find out like how, how frequently did people where I'm from, how frequently were theater audiences able to like encounter these characters and see these Indians. and so that's the ongoing thing that that comes along with this particular research. and I have, another project that is at the very early stages, which is years down the road about, native American representation in German theatrical forms.

14:29 - Primarily the outdoor festivals, the OU Festivals. So, that's another thing that I'm planning for. I haven't published anything on it yet. but that's sort of the exploitation of Red Face, and what happens when Red Face is not in America, but the characters are deeply connected to North America.

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