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Revolutions and Rebellions in Afghanistan

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Nazif Shahrani discovers the enduring conflicts of Afghanistan in “Revolutions and Rebellions”. A vital ethnographic text capturing irrevocable change.

Image courtesy of interviewee. December 4, 2023

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This video video is a transcribed speech by an individual discussing their experiences and research related to Afghanistan, particularly focusing on a co-edited volume they worked on. They explain their academic journey, touching on their motivations for studying Afghanistan after completing their PhD in 1976. The speaker reflects on the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which influenced their decision to convene a symposium in 1980 to gather insights on the country's socio-political dynamics and the resistance against the communist regime.

The book that emerged from this symposium aims to analyze why Afghan people opposed the communist regime, despite its claims of representing the marginalized and impoverished. The discussion highlights the complexity of Afghan social structures and the inadequate understanding of its context by Western journalists and researchers at the time.

Furthermore, the speaker contrasts historical insights with contemporary issues, critiquing the ongoing cycle of political instability, foreign intervention, and dependency on external powers in Afghanistan's governance. They describe the evolution of political culture in Afghanistan, marked by personalism, hegemony, and corruption, exacerbated by both local and foreign influences.

Towards the end, the speaker emphasizes the continuous suffering of the Afghan people due to 40 years of conflict and criticizes past international efforts that did not prioritize genuine Afghan voices and autonomy. They advocate for a decentralized governance model based on community self-governance, rather than relying solely on foreign interventions or support.

In sum, the text serves as both a historical account of Afghanistan through a scholarly lens and a commentary on the implications of foreign involvement in its ongoing conflicts and political culture.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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First of all, I should say

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that this book is co-edited volume.

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Uh, at the time, I was a very junior faculty

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and a much more senior colleague, Robert Canfield,

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professor Robert Canfield, who like me,

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has become retired now emeritus from Washington

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University in St.

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Louis. We are responsible for putting this together,

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and I have, two major articles in the book myself,

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but the rest is from others.

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About a hundred pages of 300 page book is really mine.

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The rest is from other colleagues.

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So what's important, I think, to, tell you about this is

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that I finished essentially my,

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PhD degree in 1976,

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and, very, much for looking forward

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to return to Afghanistan.

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And then in 1978, I was still in America.

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I had, temporary jobs heading, back to Iran,

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getting a, they had job offers in that accepted one,

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actually, that I was going to return to Iran

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for three years contract.

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And then from there, I would go home.

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And unfortunately for me,

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a Afghanistan became impossible in 1978 to return

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to in Iran in 79.

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And because of that, I was, here.

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And at the time, actually, in 1980,

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I started a job at UCLA, university

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of California Los Angeles.

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And, Soviets had just essentially invaded

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Afghanistan and occupied it.

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And I contacted, professor Canfield at the time to say,

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maybe we should put together,

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some panels at the American Anthropological Association,

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which that year was going to be in Washington, dc.

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And we did all day symposium, essentially, on Alf,

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Afghanistan with 18 colleagues attending.

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And 15 of them were, n aons, and three of us were aons.

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Unfortunately, the two other two who were with us,

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did not either want to cont, publish their papers

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or had other issues.

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So I remained the only Aon, who was acqui

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and contributor to this volume.

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And the issue, for us was very much at that time,

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while communist regime, the group

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had been, mbo, you know,

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proclaiming essentially a revolutionary change in favor

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of the, essentially poor

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and, needy

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and wanted to bring about,

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significant supposedly Marxist change in the country.

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Why were people who were also impoverished

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or oppressed, then everything else did not accept

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that particular claim or offer.

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And instead, they rose against the regime.

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And of course, when Russians in invaded,

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that made it even worse.

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Uh, and we wanted to know what the reasons

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for this were from the perspective of those

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who essentially opposed the regime.

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And that was the, the critical issue really for us,

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because a lot of journalistic,

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explanations at the time, both from the Soviet side,

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communist Spath sympathizers in the West,

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and others were very superficial, very,

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really lacking a deep understanding of af foreign society.

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And what had happened, in fact, was Afghanistan

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for a long time, was not an area

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for research by the Westerners

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because it was considered to be so backwards, so difficult

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to get in and restrictions and all the rest.

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But in the 1960s, in 1970s, it had opened up a bit.

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Anthropologists particularly found it a more interesting

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place to go and do research.

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So a lot of, research had been done mostly

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by Westerners, who, in the 1960s

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and 1970s essentially,

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had had done work in different parts of Afghanistan.

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What we wanted to know was to, essentially ask them to

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reflect on their own field work,

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experience firsthand knowledge in different parts

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of the country, and see what they think.

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The people that they worked with, they had worked with

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were in fact, resisting

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or joining the resistance instead

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of accepting the communist offer of, you know, changes,

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radical changes in the society, some

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of which could have been in fact, in favor

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of the people if they had accepted it.

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But what were the reasons? So this is

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what the book is really about.

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And we had that, 1980 symposium, all the,

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long symposium within the framework of annual

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American Anthropological Association Convention in

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Washington, DC of all places.

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And it was really the, the best place to be

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because we had very large audiences

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and very curious people, among our,

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amongst our own colleagues who didn't know much.

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Anthropologists did not know much about Afghanistan either.

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So once that was finished, we thought we had a really,

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a bunch of really good papers,

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and we asked, our colleagues to revise

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based on the comments that they received.

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And of course, the editors also give,

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and 15 of them were willing to publish.

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And, that's what happened by 1984.

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We had, the initial publisher was, the Institute

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of International Studies at uc, Berkeley,

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that they took, upon that.

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And, you know, so it was not a commercial thing.

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It was, it was educational press,

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and they did a lot of good work on it.

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And we got the book out in 84.

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And what happened after that was

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that it got very good reviews

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because it really was, the most serious study

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of Afghanistan by anthropological community at that time.

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And, then it, it sold quite a bit

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because it was very important for policy makers as well.

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And I think a lot of policy makers read it as well.

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It may be one

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of the more read book about a Afghanistan until now.

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It sold out, it went out of print,

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a few years after that.

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And then it was, in demand,

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and it was in fact being sold for $300.

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I heard a copy at one point when it wasn't available.

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And I think in Pakistan, they may have also done some work

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of their own that is published at,

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on the sly and sell it.

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So, then, we thought there was need for that.

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And, I talked to the Indiana University Press

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and, they, considered republishing it.

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And, the International Institute at Berkeley were,

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good enough to give it, to release their,

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essentially copyright, to, renegotiated

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with Indiana University Press.

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And they published it last year.

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Essentially, the last empire, Muslim Empire,

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historically that came into being was in 1747.

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And the Paston ethnic Group up until then were clients

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of other empires,

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and they had never had their own government.

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And, another aha of Iran.

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Anyway, he was, the bri, you know,

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the Persian em emperor who had been fighting in India

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with, morals essentially,

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and had about 4,000 per,

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soldiers hired soldiers.

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And, he was assassinated in 1747.

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And then his, most important general Ahmad sha aash

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from Kandahar, essentially, seized, treasure

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treasury that had been,

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that was in fact being transported from India

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after a successful war by nad shar of Iran.

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Uh, and he is assassinated.

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He, captures this, treasury carvan,

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and, calls zoom shot, essentially

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to declare a zoom empire.

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And that begins to take shape in Kandahar,

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modern de Kandahar, where also Taliban

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spiritual capital right now is located in not Kabul.

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Uh, so that story, you know, his son does very well

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until from, he lives from, until 7, 9, 18, 17,

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72.

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And then his sons continues until, 17,

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or 1800 and something.

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And then his, his sons then began to quarrel

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amongst themselves because, the son

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of the initial founder of the Pa Pashto Empire,

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then it was called the Rani Empire.

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That's the tribe of, their own.

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And, they, essentially from 22 wives began

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to essentially quarrel over the throne.

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And, it shifted by, 1835

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to another dynasty, a related dynasty that from Zey to

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what is called, referred to Generalism Muhammad Ze.

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So it shifts over to, to the Muhammad Ze clan,

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and then they continue to fight.

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Also, there is a lot of, fighting and, imbalance.

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And of course,

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the British are beginning to middle as well.

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At one point, the medic, in,

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18 41, 18 39, the British essentially,

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incur.

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I mean, it takes, makes an incursion, incursion.

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Two, the ahan territory.

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Ahan territory had been much larger.

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In fact, it encompassed much of Pakistan, parts

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of North India, and even parts of, central Asia, parts

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of Persia at that point.

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Um, and of course, British,

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goes into Afghanistan, what's called first anglophone war.

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And the loser, after four years, they withdraw with,

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with a terrible loss of 18, 19,000 soldiers in a winter.

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There is a lot written about that, that people know.

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And of course, at that point, the great game

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in Central Asia is basically, being played out.

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The British are trying to essentially, prevent the zarus

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who are moving into Central Asia.

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By 1860s, they have essentially taken Tashkent

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and threatening Boha, Hiva

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and, other Hans in Central Asia.

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And of course, by 60, no, 74

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Russians had taken Hiva.

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And, the British were very, very, scared

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that they were to move south.

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So they made another incursion in 1879.

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And this time, so of course, knowing

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that last time they had done very, suffered very badly,

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they wanted to find some other solution.

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So, they invited a man

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who had been, who was, who had been a princeling,

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essentially named Abdurahman.

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His father was a king at one point, his uncles,

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him fighting and all that.

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So he had sort of given up and, left a Afghanistan

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and gone to Han under the Z Empire

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and the Z he had come to,

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essentially make a hero of Peter the Great,

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and his, he was, bit,

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they're saying he was probably not literate.

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I don't know. It may, may have some minor literacy,

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but then he were very smart guy,

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and he had learned a lot of lessons, from Zarus history.

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And, particularly the Zero.

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Peter the greatest, as you know, was one

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of the most horrible characters of the, you know,

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Russian history.

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Uh, so he learns a lot of things from him.

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They invite him to come back to Kabul,

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and he does, with the help of northern, people

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who are not from his tribe, sometimes he gets, people,

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you know, marrying daughters

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of important people from this, those area.

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In fact, he comes through Akon, which is, the place

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where I'm from originally.

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So he c comes to Kabul promising that he is,

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tells the people he is going to fight the British,

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and people come for jihad, essentially against,

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the British.

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And one night he essentially packs up people very close

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to Kabul, who had accompanied them up there

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and goes to the British journals in Kabul in August.

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They crown him, is the king of Afghanistan,

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and they give him a lot of cash

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and give him a lot of weapons and tell him, you,

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and we're going to draw the boundaries

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of Afghanistan for you.

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This is the, and in fact, the Afghanistan,

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the name Afghanistan, had been,

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used only once in 1801 in a, in a, treaty between,

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zarus, between, British India in Iran.

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But, by this time, it becomes, an,

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first it was called Kingdom of Kabul,

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and Kingdom of Kabul in Turkestan.

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But anyway, the name of Afghanistan becomes coined

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for this territory during the 1880s, 1880s.

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So this is the, the critical juncture

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that we have for the first time.

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A foreign power picks somebody for leadership of a country

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and gives them money and weapons,

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and let 'em lose on the people to control them.

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For us, you are, you are not going to have any power over,

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international policymaking, international relations.

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That's our pro, our, prerogative.

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But internally, you can do whatever you want.

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And this is the beginning of the end for, for the people

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of a Afghanistan, essentially, that he, anybody

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who threatened them, I imagine they were a threat.

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He killed them and destroyed them.

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In fact, he has a memoir two,

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volume memoir in which he says, people

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of a Afghanistan are like, AF Afghanistan is like a house,

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and people who oppose them are like verman.

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And he says he need, he needs to clear his house.

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So clearing houses, anybody suspects, he exiles them,

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kills them, assassinates them.

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And every horror that you can imagine has been,

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He himself admits that he did all of this blow people

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by cannons and whatnot.

14:56.105 --> 15:00.725
Anyway, the, borders were drawn

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by British, and money

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and weapons were given to Abdurahman

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to essentially make his kingdom.

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And he did this by 18,

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19 0 1, 19 0 1.

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He is the only one of two, two leaders of Afghanistan

15:18.105 --> 15:19.925
who died in his own bed.

15:21.725 --> 15:25.665
And then when it came to burying him, his family was

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so scared that if they bury them in public cemetery,

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people will come and dig up his body

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and feed it to the dogs.

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So they buried him in the compound of the,

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royal family, which later on now has been preserved in the

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middle of a park in Kabul,

15:43.715 --> 15:47.155
and they destroyed a lot of the, you know, neighborhood

15:47.155 --> 15:49.875
around them so that, you know, there's a,

15:49.935 --> 15:52.155
is a monument there in his name.

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But the the problem was that they could not bury him at

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that time because people heated him so much

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that they didn't want, did not want,

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or could not dare bury him in the public cemetery.

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So his son then essentially inherited the kingdom.

16:08.775 --> 16:13.715
His name was Amir. And he, got the same subsidies,

16:13.775 --> 16:17.155
the same thing, and, and essentially, did what,

16:17.175 --> 16:18.315
the British wanted.

16:19.615 --> 16:21.715
Uh, but there was a movement beginning

16:21.715 --> 16:26.125
to shape within the court, against this kind

16:26.125 --> 16:30.285
of dependency on, the Ians

16:31.105 --> 16:34.845
and one of his sons, the fifth, he also had numerous wives,

16:34.905 --> 16:36.965
no, you know, full hareem and all the rest.

16:37.545 --> 16:40.245
The fifth wife called, I mean, son called Amla.

16:40.785 --> 16:44.485
Uh, essentially the suspicion is he ca he murdered his own

16:44.485 --> 16:47.465
father and succeeded to the throne.

16:48.735 --> 16:52.305
What happened was that subsidy by the British,

16:52.305 --> 16:54.625
and then he called independence of,

16:54.725 --> 16:56.985
of the country in 1919,

16:57.655 --> 17:01.865
that independence cost him the subsidies of both weapon

17:02.125 --> 17:04.145
and money, and people.

17:04.335 --> 17:08.225
Then he started, essentially increasing the taxes

17:08.765 --> 17:11.905
and the tax collector became, you know, wolves,

17:11.905 --> 17:14.825
skinning people, in collection of, things.

17:15.245 --> 17:16.425
So they were rebellion.

17:16.645 --> 17:18.945
He also introduced some, reforms,

17:19.605 --> 17:21.185
and they, a lot of people think

17:21.385 --> 17:23.385
that people rose against his reforms,

17:23.845 --> 17:26.305
but in fact, reforms were only part of the problem

17:26.415 --> 17:28.585
because he had started girls schools.

17:29.205 --> 17:32.105
And, that that was just like,

17:32.125 --> 17:34.745
now the Taliban have essentially,

17:34.745 --> 17:36.945
stopped allowing girls at that point.

17:37.175 --> 17:40.265
Some people were unhappy about that, particularly,

17:40.445 --> 17:42.985
the ancestors of the Taliban in the East.

17:43.525 --> 17:46.345
But the major problem was really taxation

17:46.965 --> 17:49.575
and corruption that caused it.

17:49.675 --> 17:51.575
And, it was differentially done.

17:51.875 --> 17:54.495
He himself came from a Pashtoon tribe,

17:54.635 --> 17:59.015
and then he taxed the non PTOs, especially,

17:59.015 --> 18:00.375
those are closest to Kabul,

18:00.375 --> 18:02.455
because that was easy to grab them in,

18:02.455 --> 18:03.775
you know, extract from them.

18:04.155 --> 18:07.375
And then the Hazara and, the Northern Afghanistan

18:07.375 --> 18:10.335
and the Western Afghanistan, the Persians, the Tajik,

18:10.335 --> 18:12.215
the vaccine, and so forth, all of those.

18:12.355 --> 18:13.455
So that was a problem.

18:13.995 --> 18:15.695
He was ousted in

18:16.615 --> 18:19.375
1929, and then there

18:19.375 --> 18:22.135
Was an interim of nine months of government

18:22.475 --> 18:25.975
By a Tajik that they, that, regime

18:26.175 --> 18:28.055
that followed again, was

18:28.165 --> 18:30.415
Blackened them quite a bit in the history.

18:30.475 --> 18:34.015
But that, that aside, the important thing was no country

18:34.575 --> 18:37.655
recognized them during that nine months, just like Taliban

18:37.675 --> 18:38.735
for two years more.

18:39.045 --> 18:40.295
They have not been recognized.

18:40.295 --> 18:42.855
He was not recognized for the entire nine months,

18:43.275 --> 18:44.775
and nobody gave him a penny.

18:45.595 --> 18:48.215
So whatever was in the treasure, it was gone.

18:48.805 --> 18:52.975
Then the British essentially found another general who was,

18:53.315 --> 18:55.695
from am monologues period.

18:56.115 --> 18:58.495
But he am monologue had suspected,

18:58.495 --> 19:01.695
and he was, he had been shipped to Paris as an ambassador.

19:02.435 --> 19:04.815
So British India brought them to British India

19:05.155 --> 19:08.215
and send them to Northwest Frontier and give him money

19:08.235 --> 19:11.295
and give him weapons, and told him, say, go get the throne.

19:11.755 --> 19:13.015
And in fact, he did that.

19:13.355 --> 19:17.495
And he not only did that, he also, people who are north

19:17.495 --> 19:19.775
of Kabul, Koman region,

19:19.775 --> 19:23.655
where this interim Tajik ruler was from Sack,

19:23.655 --> 19:26.015
those areas did all sorts of horrors

19:26.315 --> 19:30.775
and established a monarchy that lasted until 1978.

19:31.885 --> 19:34.215
Okay? So that's the part of the story.

19:34.605 --> 19:38.375
What happened was the, another sha,

19:39.115 --> 19:42.215
the new king that the British installed,

19:42.675 --> 19:47.135
was assassinated by one of the, by the, by in fact, somebody

19:47.135 --> 19:50.535
who worked for a very famous, important person that he had,

19:50.795 --> 19:51.935
tortured and killed.

19:52.595 --> 19:56.015
So this young boy in school, when he was actually attending

19:56.015 --> 20:00.295
to graduation ceremony, at a graduation ceremony

20:00.835 --> 20:04.495
of the school, the school boy shot him dead in 1933.

20:05.995 --> 20:10.215
His hair was a son who was 18 years old, and that's king.

20:11.555 --> 20:12.655
So he came to the throne,

20:13.235 --> 20:16.015
and his uncles came to an agreement not to fight

20:16.015 --> 20:17.735
amongst themselves, but shared power.

20:18.395 --> 20:19.815
So he was on the throne,

20:20.195 --> 20:22.575
and one of his uncles became Prime Minister,

20:23.035 --> 20:25.975
and was the most vicious human being in the history

20:25.975 --> 20:28.655
of Afghanistan, and did all kinds of hor horrible things

20:29.035 --> 20:31.375
to calm down people and to, to sort of bring them.

20:31.595 --> 20:33.975
And all the reforms that the manah had done, all

20:33.975 --> 20:35.575
of them were, thrown out.

20:36.035 --> 20:38.655
And Afghanistan, every dynasty that comes,

20:39.295 --> 20:42.135
destroys everything that the previous one had done,

20:42.635 --> 20:44.295
and starts from the scratch again.

20:44.475 --> 20:46.055
So they scratch from there.

20:46.395 --> 20:49.845
And, three other uncles also succeed.

20:49.905 --> 20:51.325
No, two, two uncles.

20:51.705 --> 20:54.685
One of them, died, I think in 1940s.

20:55.185 --> 20:57.605
And another one became, prime Minister.

20:57.785 --> 21:00.645
He was a little gentler, a little better, SHA Ud.

21:00.945 --> 21:03.765
And then Daud, a cousin, of,

21:03.785 --> 21:06.445
the s Shah became also prime Minister

21:06.505 --> 21:09.375
for about 10 years s Hudu.

21:09.395 --> 21:11.735
Um, and then of course, by that,

21:11.835 --> 21:12.055
by

21:12.495 --> 21:17.495
19 40, 19 57, 19 57, 58,

21:18.225 --> 21:22.505
there was, I think, the s Shah who had been sort

21:22.505 --> 21:25.305
of sitting symbolically on the throne doing nothing.

21:25.885 --> 21:28.465
And his, uncles and cousins were running the country.

21:29.085 --> 21:30.505
He basically comes of age,

21:31.045 --> 21:35.825
and he wants to, now, constitute,

21:35.845 --> 21:39.545
to create a constitutional monarchy and a new constitution.

21:39.605 --> 21:44.185
In 1964, a new 63 initiated a new Constitution,

21:44.185 --> 21:45.385
64, it was passed,

21:45.765 --> 21:50.545
and that he forbid his own relatives, from serving on,

21:50.925 --> 21:53.145
cabinet posts

21:53.875 --> 21:56.775
and may, you know, high of offices and so forth.

21:56.835 --> 21:59.455
So that created all kinds of tensions within the family.

22:00.125 --> 22:02.575
Dout moved out of prime ministership,

22:02.915 --> 22:07.175
but he was plotting, underneath something.

22:07.515 --> 22:11.135
And at this time, in the 19, sixties,

22:11.225 --> 22:15.615
there was also, some universities including me being in

22:15.615 --> 22:18.695
that, in that community at that time in high schools.

22:18.875 --> 22:21.495
And a lot of people like me were brought,

22:21.495 --> 22:24.655
brought from sixth grade graduate graduates

22:24.655 --> 22:26.215
of sixth grade from all over the country

22:27.115 --> 22:31.675
to dormitory schools, in COBOL so

22:31.675 --> 22:33.275
that the government could control them

22:33.695 --> 22:35.395
and train them in vocational things

22:35.415 --> 22:38.475
and send them back so that they can have, you know,

22:38.955 --> 22:41.755
a strong, sort of community of supporters

22:41.755 --> 22:44.635
and so forth that didn't work the way they wished.

22:44.975 --> 22:47.275
So, as these students became radicalized,

22:47.275 --> 22:49.035
because there was a lot of discrimination,

22:49.035 --> 22:50.635
particularly ethnic discrimination,

22:51.035 --> 22:52.955
I can't go into details, but there's a lot of that.

22:53.335 --> 22:54.995
And at the same time, people begin

22:54.995 --> 22:58.915
to have political movements, leftists the communists,

22:59.015 --> 23:01.035
of course, or a prominent thing,

23:01.295 --> 23:03.195
and then Islamists against them

23:03.615 --> 23:06.795
or form formed themselves, monarchists nationalists.

23:06.965 --> 23:09.435
There are all kinds of groups, within these,

23:09.445 --> 23:11.075
these youth group, youth group,

23:11.335 --> 23:13.075
and of course, there are demonstrations on the

23:13.075 --> 23:14.515
streets, shoot up.

23:14.695 --> 23:15.915
All kinds of things happen.

23:16.335 --> 23:18.035
And one of them, I, I was witness,

23:18.215 --> 23:22.195
and in fact I was speaking, this is 1966.

23:22.755 --> 23:24.915
I was a college student at the time.

23:25.395 --> 23:26.875
I had only two years of college.

23:27.055 --> 23:30.355
And the third year, fortunately for me, I got a scholarship

23:30.355 --> 23:31.595
and came to the United States.

23:32.055 --> 23:35.115
So I didn't witness the rest of it.

23:35.615 --> 23:39.875
But by 1972, I was a PhD candidate.

23:39.995 --> 23:42.395
I went back to a Afghanistan to do my field work,

23:42.455 --> 23:43.795
my dissertation field work.

23:44.475 --> 23:46.965
I was there when ud the cousin

23:47.065 --> 23:50.005
who was prime Minister earlier, staged iku

23:50.305 --> 23:53.725
and announced the country to be Republican regime.

23:54.515 --> 23:57.975
So monarchy was abolished by a monarch, by a member

23:57.975 --> 24:01.455
of the monarchy in, in 1972.

24:02.155 --> 24:03.855
And I was there, in fact,

24:03.975 --> 24:07.575
I had just come back from the palm, the furthest away,

24:07.595 --> 24:09.855
you know, spot that, that little finger that,

24:09.855 --> 24:13.215
points towards China at 12,000 feet in higher.

24:13.215 --> 24:15.735
That's where I was doing my doctoral dissertation research,

24:15.935 --> 24:18.615
studying, community of tourism, nomads,

24:18.995 --> 24:22.255
and high, altitude agriculturalists in,

24:22.335 --> 24:24.015
in the whan corridor itself.

24:24.635 --> 24:27.935
So I, I was really scared that, what's going

24:27.935 --> 24:29.775
to happen now, they were not going to let me,

24:29.795 --> 24:30.935
but nothing happened.

24:31.205 --> 24:33.855
They people sort of to, taught his,

24:34.075 --> 24:36.175
it was just a change within the monarchy,

24:37.015 --> 24:39.635
and they knew him already his name, so

24:39.635 --> 24:41.715
that they took it without resistance, nothing.

24:42.175 --> 24:43.315
He basically, it was one

24:43.315 --> 24:45.955
of those white cos only one or two people who shot.

24:46.255 --> 24:47.555
And, that's it.

24:48.055 --> 24:51.275
Uh, so dud became the first,

24:52.895 --> 24:53.985
what do you call, president

24:54.045 --> 24:56.305
of the country in a republic regime.

24:56.805 --> 25:00.665
And that, dud then,

25:01.065 --> 25:03.985
actually drew on the support of the communist parties,

25:05.595 --> 25:08.615
is one of his coalition members were these communist,

25:08.645 --> 25:12.135
communist groups who were, part of them were,

25:12.155 --> 25:13.335
with Soviet Union.

25:13.445 --> 25:14.455
Part of them were Chinese,

25:14.995 --> 25:16.895
and some of them were even Maoist.

25:17.015 --> 25:18.095
I mean, Maoist, and some

25:18.095 --> 25:20.135
of them were independent and all this.

25:20.395 --> 25:24.135
So anyway, he collaborated with the communists to come

25:24.135 --> 25:28.775
to power, and then started a very, vicious,

25:29.475 --> 25:33.055
policies towards the Islamist, the young Muslim

25:33.115 --> 25:37.115
or Muslim movements, Muslim youth movement, which also was

25:37.655 --> 25:41.875
in, essentially in AT of war with a communist,

25:42.435 --> 25:44.115
previous, decade or so.

25:44.535 --> 25:48.555
So that, caused a lot of these,

25:48.765 --> 25:51.635
young Muslims essentially moved to Pakistan.

25:52.035 --> 25:54.275
'cause a Afghanistan, especially the relationship

25:54.275 --> 25:56.195
with Pakistan was not very good.

25:56.855 --> 25:58.435
So they took refuge there.

25:58.455 --> 26:00.715
And at one point there was actually an attempt

26:00.715 --> 26:02.555
to co against Dud.

26:02.935 --> 26:06.795
So that became even worse, that, a lot of young Muslims,

26:06.975 --> 26:08.395
came to be suspected,

26:08.615 --> 26:10.195
and a lot of them moved to Pakistan,

26:10.215 --> 26:14.075
and they, Pakistanis set up for them,

26:14.305 --> 26:16.595
essentially Mediterranean military training,

26:16.625 --> 26:18.035
support and so on and so forth.

26:18.295 --> 26:19.915
So that's the beginning of the end.

26:20.335 --> 26:25.315
And essentially, Soviet Union, wanted,

26:25.775 --> 26:28.115
dau to do certain things, but he was a nationalist.

26:28.115 --> 26:31.435
He himself was not a communist. He truly was a nationalist.

26:31.775 --> 26:35.355
And Brezhnev said something in one of his trips in Moscow,

26:35.355 --> 26:36.875
and he apparently walked out on him.

26:37.745 --> 26:40.245
And within a few days, then,

26:40.665 --> 26:43.405
biv had ordered the Communist Party to stage a coup.

26:43.545 --> 26:45.205
And, they killed him.

26:46.005 --> 26:48.765
19 members of his family were slaughtered at the same time.

26:49.265 --> 26:51.245
And that's when, 1978,

26:51.505 --> 26:54.525
the Communist coup essentially occurs under the

26:54.725 --> 26:56.245
auspices of the Soviet Union.

26:57.115 --> 27:00.775
And after that, you know, the rest is history

27:00.775 --> 27:05.175
that everybody knows, with a Soviet intervention.

27:05.835 --> 27:07.935
The people of Afghanistan essentially rose

27:08.325 --> 27:12.015
because of two, essentially, motivation was Jihad

27:13.105 --> 27:16.205
and Jihad for them meant defending their faith

27:16.465 --> 27:18.165
and defend, defending their country.

27:18.705 --> 27:20.045
And for the first year

27:20.045 --> 27:22.365
and a half, two years, essentially,

27:22.745 --> 27:24.005
nobody had supported them.

27:24.005 --> 27:25.725
Nobody give them anything from outside.

27:25.745 --> 27:30.445
So it was totally, you know, ground up

27:30.915 --> 27:35.165
what, movement, by mu ordinary Muslim people.

27:35.425 --> 27:38.245
And then, of course, the elite of the Islamic youth.

27:38.915 --> 27:43.685
They, essentially also came to support some traditional,

27:44.185 --> 27:47.245
Sufi orders, some scholars.

27:47.755 --> 27:49.525
They were the ones who called the Jihad,

27:49.525 --> 27:52.525
and they, you know, became organized, to some extent.

27:52.745 --> 27:57.725
And, and by, 1979, Christmas 79,

27:58.115 --> 28:01.525
when Soviets invaded, then the American President,

28:02.205 --> 28:04.645
American Administration essentially stepped in,

28:05.065 --> 28:07.645
saw the opportunity to turn it into a proxy war,

28:08.125 --> 28:11.085
a proxy war, of the Cold War, essentially.

28:11.425 --> 28:16.005
So they began to fi, really hijack the jihad,

28:16.585 --> 28:18.245
the National Jihad, the national boom

28:18.315 --> 28:21.805
that was there became hijacked by the West.

28:22.685 --> 28:24.545
And of course, a lot

28:24.545 --> 28:26.865
of majority Muslim countries also chipped in.

28:27.855 --> 28:31.475
And later, by the, mid 1980s,

28:32.035 --> 28:33.075
CIA got involved,

28:33.495 --> 28:37.275
and they recruited Muslims from America, from Europe,

28:37.275 --> 28:40.675
everywhere, to send them to a Afghanistan to fight.

28:41.105 --> 28:43.875
This is what created the Arab Arons,

28:44.805 --> 28:46.185
30,000 of them.

28:46.645 --> 28:48.425
And this jihad that started

28:48.525 --> 28:53.225
as a local phenomena became internationalized, globalized.

28:53.765 --> 28:57.345
So Global Jihad was in, in, essentially constructed

28:57.925 --> 28:59.785
by the West in Afghanistan

29:00.365 --> 29:03.225
to fight the Cold War against the Soviet Union.

29:03.725 --> 29:08.265
And that's, that particular, project was successful

29:08.805 --> 29:12.855
in the fact that Majdi,

29:13.255 --> 29:15.095
defeated the Soviet army.

29:15.525 --> 29:17.375
They withdrew in 1988,

29:17.715 --> 29:20.175
and of course, they had their own internal problems as well,

29:20.485 --> 29:21.695
that Gorbachev came

29:21.695 --> 29:25.975
and go, you know, is, Ika project and so forth.

29:25.995 --> 29:28.135
But anyway, they withdrew.

29:28.475 --> 29:32.535
And within, two, three years of,

29:33.295 --> 29:36.215
Soviet's own problems, the communist regime

29:36.325 --> 29:40.615
that they had built and left behind in 1992, collapsed

29:42.045 --> 29:47.025
And Moja, essentially were left, successful,

29:47.685 --> 29:51.945
militarily, but they miserably failed politically

29:52.175 --> 29:57.145
because they had no, coherent, first

29:57.145 --> 30:00.585
of all, they did not allow them to create a, a united

30:01.195 --> 30:05.025
opposition, rather encouraged to, to fight each other.

30:05.355 --> 30:08.825
There were seven groups that, ISI, the,

30:08.825 --> 30:12.745
interservice intelligence of Pakistan, the equivalent of CIA

30:12.805 --> 30:14.265
and, MI six

30:14.265 --> 30:17.025
and so forth, had,

30:17.685 --> 30:21.265
had essentially formed seven different majority

30:21.825 --> 30:25.605
resistance groups, all of them at each other's throat, none

30:25.605 --> 30:29.215
of them with a, with a program for political,

30:29.715 --> 30:30.815
you know, project research.

30:31.035 --> 30:34.655
So as soon as they won, they fell on each other's throat.

30:35.355 --> 30:39.925
Who is going to get the, you know, the country, to,

30:40.875 --> 30:42.045
rule essentially.

30:42.545 --> 30:45.805
Uh, so the whole notions of Islamic jihad

30:45.805 --> 30:48.165
and Islamic values, and Islamic state

30:48.345 --> 30:51.805
and stability, all of those were just gone by the wayside.

30:52.155 --> 30:56.845
They became essentially proxy warriors for, neighbors,

30:57.825 --> 31:01.725
Saudis, the Iranians, they are Pakistanis, Indians,

31:01.835 --> 31:05.125
even Russians, all of them took side, to, so that,

31:05.515 --> 31:06.685
that civil war,

31:06.745 --> 31:10.645
or really, there is no civil war, it's civil, you know,

31:10.945 --> 31:15.045
disaster essentially took place in Afghanistan.

31:15.475 --> 31:17.085
That groups fought each other.

31:17.745 --> 31:20.165
And then each regionally, at one point, at

31:20.165 --> 31:24.165
around 19 94, 93, 94,

31:24.165 --> 31:25.445
the country had been divided.

31:26.025 --> 31:28.685
If you look at the book, that the regions that we had,

31:28.945 --> 31:32.045
given in the, in the book, those regions,

31:32.155 --> 31:35.245
each essentially came to be an independent,

31:35.505 --> 31:37.245
so the semi independent entity

31:37.625 --> 31:41.445
and run by local, muja leaders,

31:41.735 --> 31:44.485
which they were then relabeled as warlords.

31:45.565 --> 31:48.225
Uh, so earlier the heroes, the mujahid

31:48.225 --> 31:50.105
and so forth, now became warlords.

31:50.405 --> 31:54.745
And that's, essentially,

31:56.015 --> 31:59.585
created an environment at which, at which Taliban rose.

32:01.075 --> 32:03.935
And the reason for that was the rest.

32:04.035 --> 32:06.575
The West was organized into a coherent,

32:06.575 --> 32:08.535
semi coherent entity, political entity.

32:09.075 --> 32:12.775
The North Northwest was also, had its own.

32:13.045 --> 32:16.735
They, they have all, I mean, in, RO region,

32:17.145 --> 32:21.375
which was the five provinces came together,

32:21.645 --> 32:25.265
they had a, a single leader, Ismahan,

32:25.765 --> 32:28.785
and then General Dto, the Uswe provinces,

32:28.855 --> 32:30.745
five more provinces in the Northwest,

32:30.965 --> 32:34.985
had his own even printed his own money, to that extent.

32:35.445 --> 32:37.105
And then you had Northeast

32:37.765 --> 32:41.605
and the central part, Rabbani Inma,

32:41.945 --> 32:45.045
who was killed on the 9th of September, 2001,

32:45.515 --> 32:46.845
they had their own government,

32:46.845 --> 32:49.565
and Kabul was their, their capital, essentially,

32:49.945 --> 32:51.805
the Hara in central a Afghanistan

32:51.835 --> 32:52.965
also had Korean government.

32:53.265 --> 32:57.245
The Eastern PTOs also had a council that ruled them.

32:57.675 --> 33:00.125
They were ab, they were, they were having their own actually

33:00.805 --> 33:02.885
airplanes, an airport, you know,

33:02.885 --> 33:04.525
flying trade, and all the rest.

33:05.025 --> 33:08.645
The only area that was left utterly a mess was Kandahar,

33:09.315 --> 33:11.015
the Lu Kha, the four five.

33:11.675 --> 33:14.815
And this is where at Chaos rained,

33:15.235 --> 33:18.735
and that's where, some horrible things were happening

33:18.795 --> 33:23.455
by local commanders with guns, including, abuse

33:23.455 --> 33:25.095
of young children, young boys,

33:25.105 --> 33:26.695
young girls, and, and all the rest.

33:26.915 --> 33:30.815
So, muah, Omar essentially stuck his head out in defense

33:30.815 --> 33:33.535
of one of the families whose, daughter

33:33.715 --> 33:35.015
or son had been abused.

33:35.745 --> 33:39.085
Abused. And that was a very positive development

33:39.085 --> 33:42.685
because he very quickly, with the support of the people,

33:43.585 --> 33:45.685
got the, the area pacified

33:46.555 --> 33:48.695
and eliminated a lot of those bad,

33:49.395 --> 33:50.655
old majority commanders.

33:51.115 --> 33:55.175
So at this point, if they had left a Afghanistan alone,

33:56.085 --> 33:59.335
they could, they were really creating sort of autonomous,

33:59.755 --> 34:01.095
regional powers.

34:01.095 --> 34:03.095
All they needed to do was to get together

34:03.115 --> 34:04.895
and create a, a central government.

34:05.915 --> 34:07.335
And then they ended up being banned.

34:07.335 --> 34:10.455
But that's not what ISI the Pakistani intelligence wanted.

34:10.915 --> 34:12.735
So they interfered

34:12.735 --> 34:16.095
and, turned essentially, almar,

34:16.595 --> 34:18.615
and they named them Taliban.

34:19.035 --> 34:21.735
And all the rest was done essentially by them

34:21.995 --> 34:24.655
and encouraged them that now you can, you can have,

34:24.655 --> 34:27.415
the whole country will help you go conquer.

34:28.975 --> 34:30.555
So, you know, a country

34:30.625 --> 34:35.395
that has fought its own war against communism, against the,

34:35.455 --> 34:39.995
international, you know, great power, fought in,

34:39.995 --> 34:42.195
won their own areas, they liberated their own areas.

34:42.815 --> 34:46.155
Now, one of the groups is going to go and conquer them.

34:47.635 --> 34:51.655
And that was the war that went on, from 1960,

34:52.055 --> 34:54.695
1996 until 2001.

34:55.315 --> 34:59.255
And in that process, process, Al-Qaeda was also formed,

34:59.565 --> 35:02.855
because you remember 1993 war in the Gulf,

35:03.035 --> 35:05.855
and, essentially Bin Laden going back home

35:05.875 --> 35:07.615
and then getting upset with,

35:07.875 --> 35:11.495
the situation there being thrown out to Yemen,

35:11.495 --> 35:13.655
and then to, Sudan,

35:14.115 --> 35:18.055
and then negotiated in 1995 after the Taliban,

35:18.055 --> 35:19.375
and the first time I'd come to power.

35:19.875 --> 35:23.535
And, well, another one of their partners,

35:23.725 --> 35:27.735
they invited, bin Laden back into a Afghanistan,

35:28.475 --> 35:31.095
and that's where they then created Al-Qaeda.

35:32.155 --> 35:34.775
And of course, Al-Qaeda, then Schemed,

35:34.915 --> 35:37.565
or at least allegedly Schemed, the nine 11

35:38.025 --> 35:40.285
and many other projects in, in the West.

35:40.785 --> 35:44.365
So, US went in, in 2001

35:44.455 --> 35:46.805
after the nine 11 events in New York

35:46.825 --> 35:51.685
and Washington, DC with, the entire, you know,

35:51.685 --> 35:53.765
partners, all of NATO plus,

35:54.505 --> 35:58.485
and, spent 20 years what they called War on Terror.

35:59.805 --> 36:02.705
In fact, it wasn't war on Terror, it was,

36:02.965 --> 36:05.765
war four terror, that it did not,

36:05.825 --> 36:09.405
it did not decrease terrorism, it increased it from that.

36:09.465 --> 36:12.365
We have ISIS, and, you know, isis, gay

36:12.365 --> 36:14.445
and all kinds of other things evolved.

36:14.865 --> 36:17.885
So that, that story is, again, another,

36:17.885 --> 36:19.725
another thing which is really part

36:19.725 --> 36:23.885
and parcel of the continuation of what I have come to,

36:23.915 --> 36:28.445
term is Afghanistan's problematic political culture.

36:29.445 --> 36:33.305
The political culture has terrible elements, terrible,

36:33.385 --> 36:38.025
issues in it, which essentially is, essentially

36:38.745 --> 36:43.225
fermenting this continuous cycle of, war

36:43.245 --> 36:45.465
and violence and instability in the country.

36:45.845 --> 36:48.945
And those, I, my, in my judgment of four things,

36:49.205 --> 36:50.545
one is a instance.

36:50.545 --> 36:53.265
Politics is utterly person-centered,

36:55.085 --> 36:56.505
and it's also hegemonic.

36:56.655 --> 37:00.465
Whoever comes to power wants everything for himself.

37:00.895 --> 37:05.025
It's totally extractive that it's, it, it essentially

37:05.615 --> 37:08.225
gets money from foreigners who are mostly enemies

37:08.225 --> 37:12.265
of the country and weapons from the, from their own enemies,

37:12.645 --> 37:14.705
and then use it against their own people.

37:15.085 --> 37:18.785
So we have never had a legitimate political system in

37:18.785 --> 37:20.785
Afghanistan in his entire history,

37:21.135 --> 37:24.465
because the rulers have been given money and given weapon.

37:25.205 --> 37:27.625
And when they have g they can impose themselves.

37:28.525 --> 37:32.745
Why should they ask for people's, you know, vote

37:32.885 --> 37:35.105
or anything in the last 20 years?

37:35.685 --> 37:38.625
Uh, I mean, you can see earlier it was British India.

37:38.955 --> 37:41.225
Later it was Russia, Soviet Union,

37:41.765 --> 37:45.105
and later regional proxies, Saudi Arabia and this

37:45.105 --> 37:46.505
and that, that created the war.

37:46.685 --> 37:51.665
And eventually America, $2 trillion on a,

37:51.725 --> 37:53.665
on a war that went on for 20 years.

37:54.085 --> 37:55.545
And at the end, what did they do?

37:55.655 --> 37:57.745
They brought the Taliban back to power.

37:58.865 --> 38:00.325
And so the, and,

38:00.345 --> 38:03.045
and the third element is really abuse of Islam.

38:03.735 --> 38:05.605
Islam is instrumentalized.

38:05.995 --> 38:09.685
It's no longer a set of values, a way of life, a guidance

38:09.825 --> 38:14.405
for, for living, peacefully, humanly, dig with dignity.

38:14.995 --> 38:17.445
None of those things, no, those, those values are,

38:17.545 --> 38:18.725
are never adhere to,

38:19.345 --> 38:21.845
but it's very effective means

38:21.905 --> 38:23.805
for mobilizing people against each other

38:24.145 --> 38:25.205
and against foreigners.

38:26.135 --> 38:28.315
And the, the fourth element

38:28.375 --> 38:29.835
of Afghanistan's political culture,

38:30.015 --> 38:34.115
the most important one is dependency on foreign powers.

38:35.925 --> 38:38.035
Total dependency from Abdurahman.

38:38.285 --> 38:41.715
Until now, all of them have, in the only two times

38:41.745 --> 38:44.255
that nobody gave them money,

38:44.685 --> 38:45.935
they couldn't last very long.

38:46.155 --> 38:48.375
The regime couldn't last long. Right?

38:48.395 --> 38:52.935
Now, Taliban in the last two plus years have been

38:53.675 --> 38:54.775
not recognized,

38:55.475 --> 38:59.655
but given cash $40 million a week

38:59.675 --> 39:00.735
by the United States.

39:01.755 --> 39:06.295
Why, I'm se suggesting that in post-World War ii,

39:06.315 --> 39:08.815
we live in a very different political ecology.

39:09.405 --> 39:10.975
This political ecology is

39:10.975 --> 39:14.775
that this empire is very different from the earlier empires.

39:14.925 --> 39:16.175
This is American empire

39:16.195 --> 39:17.815
or American initiative to the empire.

39:18.085 --> 39:19.695
It's empire by invitation.

39:20.895 --> 39:25.385
They created conditions in the post war, post,

39:26.145 --> 39:29.705
colonial countries that depends on them.

39:29.965 --> 39:32.185
And then they, when they have trouble, they invite them.

39:32.405 --> 39:34.385
So they don't invade themselves directly.

39:34.935 --> 39:36.945
They are invited to invade.

39:37.295 --> 39:40.545
This is post World War ii, new Empire.

39:40.645 --> 39:43.225
The earlier empires were either commercial empires

39:43.485 --> 39:46.705
or, military empires and so forth,

39:46.845 --> 39:49.465
but this is a whole visions form of empire

39:49.975 --> 39:54.025
that others indulge in well as well, that they wanted

39:54.045 --> 39:57.105
to fight their great powers, wanted to fight their wars

39:57.565 --> 40:01.225
by proxy in other people's land, not in their own lands.

40:01.315 --> 40:02.865
There has been no war in America.

40:03.415 --> 40:06.585
America always fights at, in, it's the same time,

40:07.255 --> 40:09.305
many wars in different parts of the world.

40:09.845 --> 40:12.345
And it's because of the military industrial complex.

40:12.515 --> 40:16.185
Their entire economies dependent on war.

40:16.955 --> 40:20.215
And if they don't have a war, they will have unemployment.

40:20.485 --> 40:22.095
They'll have economic decline.

40:22.365 --> 40:26.135
They will not be able to sell, billions of dollars worth

40:26.135 --> 40:29.455
of weapons to, especially Middle Eastern countries.

40:29.675 --> 40:31.695
The creation of this, this, at this moment,

40:32.155 --> 40:35.935
the situation in in Raza is a good example of that.

40:36.085 --> 40:40.335
Because if there was no Israel, Joe, Joe Biden, 30,

40:40.345 --> 40:43.255
40 years ago when wa was a young senator, had said,

40:43.435 --> 40:46.535
if there was no Israel, we had to create it

40:46.645 --> 40:49.255
because we need it in the Middle East, so

40:49.255 --> 40:51.855
that they can have, they, they create a conflict,

40:52.115 --> 40:55.655
manage the conflict, never want to resolve the conflict so

40:55.655 --> 40:56.695
that they can sell weapons.

40:57.155 --> 41:00.935
You look every year how much weapon America sold to

41:01.695 --> 41:04.375
dependent states that you have created in the middle least.

41:06.075 --> 41:09.095
And I have, I've looked at this in my, in my classes,

41:09.715 --> 41:12.775
and every year, at least 125 billion

41:12.915 --> 41:15.495
or more dollars, or,

41:15.595 --> 41:20.015
or, spent by various military regimes in the,

41:20.035 --> 41:24.015
in the area to buy American weapons or British weapons

41:24.195 --> 41:25.775
or French weapons and so forth.

41:26.075 --> 41:29.215
So this military industrial complex is essentially feeding

41:29.885 --> 41:34.725
into this, this, sustenance

41:34.745 --> 41:37.445
of, empire by invitation

41:38.275 --> 41:40.645
that smaller countries are now also engaging.

41:40.745 --> 41:42.165
So we have this new form

41:42.435 --> 41:44.205
that they do two things at the same time.

41:44.675 --> 41:46.805
They spend 200, I mean,

41:46.945 --> 41:50.085
$2 trillion in war in the 20 years in Afghanistan,

41:50.185 --> 41:54.685
but they also spend 82 or to $90 billion in reconstruction.

41:55.475 --> 41:58.605
They blow their mother of all bombs in a Afghanistan,

41:58.935 --> 42:02.005
which is now being used in smaller version in Raza

42:02.645 --> 42:05.305
to get into the tunnels and, and so on.

42:05.445 --> 42:07.905
But at the same time, they build universities.

42:08.175 --> 42:11.065
They built ro roads. They built, clinics.

42:11.065 --> 42:14.065
They built, all kinds of amenities

42:14.065 --> 42:15.465
that a Afghanistan didn't have.

42:15.725 --> 42:18.145
The city that had been essentially bombed

42:18.145 --> 42:21.265
to nothing is now alive back in Taliban

42:21.265 --> 42:22.745
and handed over to the Taliban.

42:23.085 --> 42:26.105
So they're doing two things simultaneously, hot war,

42:26.605 --> 42:29.635
and then humanitarian war, humanitarian,

42:29.905 --> 42:31.435
it's not humanitarian assistance.

42:31.705 --> 42:36.115
It's a form of war that sustains essentially empires

42:36.115 --> 42:37.795
by invitation today.

42:38.375 --> 42:41.475
And so that, that this kind of political culture,

42:41.825 --> 42:43.115
vicious political culture

42:43.145 --> 42:46.275
that we have in Taliban is produced out of that

42:47.255 --> 42:49.315
is in need of change.

42:49.935 --> 42:53.075
We have to change the political culture, not individuals.

42:53.655 --> 42:55.435
All of these individuals who have served

42:56.055 --> 42:57.635
in all the different regimes

42:58.145 --> 43:02.755
over the 140 years in a Afghanistan have essentially been

43:02.765 --> 43:06.035
built, produced by the same set of ideals

43:06.255 --> 43:09.355
and models of political thinking and political doing.

43:09.815 --> 43:14.155
And Taliban are, is, are really the last, form of it.

43:14.775 --> 43:16.195
So it, there is a continuity.

43:16.465 --> 43:18.435
What needs to be done is we have to change,

43:19.015 --> 43:20.875
and this is what I'm working on, in fact,

43:20.875 --> 43:22.195
with a group of Aons.

43:22.455 --> 43:24.635
Uh, we have a proposal on, on how

43:24.635 --> 43:27.315
to have essentially diagnostic diagnos

43:27.785 --> 43:29.435
diagnosed, what the problem is.

43:29.655 --> 43:32.195
And then we are proposing solutions for that, which,

43:32.195 --> 43:35.275
which requires a different kind of political system

43:35.665 --> 43:39.515
that is decentralized, that is, that allows for community,

43:39.515 --> 43:41.955
self-governance, the kinds of things

43:41.955 --> 43:46.275
that the West has found and adopted and, and, live by

43:46.615 --> 43:49.195
and enjoy serenity and stability.

43:49.535 --> 43:52.155
But they don't allow this to happen in other parts of the,

43:52.215 --> 43:55.795
world America could have done in the 20 years, you know,

43:56.055 --> 44:00.755
very easily, help arons create their own,

44:01.055 --> 44:03.875
system of governance that would be helpful to them.

44:04.215 --> 44:06.995
But they never did, never, never encouraged

44:07.375 --> 44:11.965
and found essentially thieves, to work with them

44:12.385 --> 44:15.925
to, to, and they're using A dollar is a weapon, is another,

44:15.925 --> 44:18.885
another issue that needs to be really looked at.

44:19.305 --> 44:23.685
Dollar is used to corrupt, everywhere America goes

44:23.685 --> 44:25.485
with war, you have corruption.

44:26.075 --> 44:29.085
Even Ukraine these days are saying that, you know,

44:29.085 --> 44:30.925
the president of Ukraine is also,

44:31.545 --> 44:36.125
Uh, now dirty with, various schemes

44:36.585 --> 44:37.805
of, stealing.

44:39.295 --> 44:42.955
And when you get leaders, you know, into that, that bag,

44:43.375 --> 44:44.675
they cannot do anything.

44:44.675 --> 44:47.995
But what you dictate and what you dictate is not to help

44:48.505 --> 44:50.635
improve the conditions in a society,

44:51.015 --> 44:54.915
but to deteriorate it so that you can remain an empire

44:56.045 --> 44:59.165
empire's businesses to be, to, to have his hands everywhere.

44:59.625 --> 45:01.885
If you don't have, if your hands are cut off,

45:02.275 --> 45:03.885
then you are no longer empire.

45:04.105 --> 45:06.605
And if these problems are solved, Israel, Arab,

45:06.795 --> 45:08.005
Israeli problem is solved,

45:08.595 --> 45:12.805
then America shouldn't have any really, relevance in,

45:12.805 --> 45:16.065
in the Middle East or the others as such.

45:16.285 --> 45:17.865
So they're not in the business.

45:18.005 --> 45:19.585
We shouldn't expect that they're going

45:19.585 --> 45:21.425
to solve any of these problems.

45:21.735 --> 45:23.145
They will continue to manage

45:23.445 --> 45:25.025
and continue to benefit from them.

45:25.285 --> 45:29.505
And that's it. So that there is a continuity in what,

45:29.505 --> 45:32.225
you know, the Jihad, 40 something years.

45:32.325 --> 45:36.465
Now. You remember this book, was,

45:36.765 --> 45:40.265
put together when I was a young assistant professor,

45:40.605 --> 45:44.145
and I retired last year with the same war.

45:44.565 --> 45:45.825
And I've been, and I,

45:45.825 --> 45:48.505
and many of my colleagues have retired from, you know,

45:48.605 --> 45:50.905
by now, who contributed to that book,

45:51.525 --> 45:54.185
or have essentially experienced

45:54.205 --> 45:57.755
and suffered collectively with the people of a Afghanistan.

45:58.095 --> 46:00.635
And the strange thing is, they may read it,

46:00.895 --> 46:05.075
but they make policies that goes against their understanding

46:05.215 --> 46:06.715
and our understanding of a country.

46:07.335 --> 46:11.375
Nobody has asked me to testify in all these years,

46:11.835 --> 46:13.735
but, colleagues

46:13.755 --> 46:16.925
or foreigners who have worked in Afghanistan

46:17.505 --> 46:19.285
or in fact their favorites,

46:20.195 --> 46:24.055
and they, they talk to them, they have them at the hearings

46:24.675 --> 46:26.015
and all kinds of other things.

46:26.435 --> 46:28.695
But af one scholars who have now,

46:28.695 --> 46:31.575
fortunately in the last 20 years, the number

46:31.595 --> 46:32.855
of them have grown.

46:33.475 --> 46:38.055
And, my second, edited volume that came out in 2018,

46:38.715 --> 46:41.455
modern, a Afghanistan, the impact of 40 years of war,

46:41.525 --> 46:46.375
then, has, I think 13 contributors

46:46.395 --> 46:51.125
who are aons in the previous volume, 13 were foreigners

46:51.755 --> 46:53.445
this time, 13 are aons.

46:53.705 --> 46:56.285
And there are, five, six, colleagues

46:56.305 --> 46:57.725
who are internationals.

46:58.675 --> 47:00.695
So there has been some, some change there,

47:01.115 --> 47:03.695
but Aons are more aware of the situation

47:04.115 --> 47:05.695
and they're organizing themselves.

47:06.155 --> 47:08.335
But will international community

47:09.295 --> 47:13.055
actually help them implement their own national prob,

47:13.295 --> 47:18.095
national program for resolving this serious crisis,

47:18.095 --> 47:19.615
that has dragged on for years?

47:19.755 --> 47:21.255
And it, and it's roots are

47:22.075 --> 47:26.775
in the 1880s when the British created this, buffer state

47:27.315 --> 47:30.085
in the name of ha Afghanistan, that it, it,

47:30.105 --> 47:33.605
the problem goes back to that area at even earlier.

47:34.385 --> 47:38.885
And these are constructions of, of, western world

47:38.905 --> 47:42.845
for us, and I've always said modern nation states

47:44.075 --> 47:45.415
for Europe was a blessing,

47:45.595 --> 47:49.455
but even then they created u European Union

47:50.305 --> 47:52.845
to get rid of those, those separate nations.

47:53.105 --> 47:55.765
But in the rest of the world, they keep dividing them.

47:56.155 --> 48:00.085
They keep, they keep, all kinds of, you know,

48:00.195 --> 48:02.325
it's a, it's a means for creating problems.

48:02.945 --> 48:06.725
And that essentially is the essence of, of the problem

48:06.835 --> 48:11.155
that modern nation state was a poison, a,

48:11.395 --> 48:14.795
a terrible poison that was introduced, particularly

48:15.065 --> 48:18.835
outside of Europe by creating ma multiethnic

48:19.415 --> 48:22.495
nation states who were divided.

48:23.075 --> 48:25.375
And that's what, when, if you look at the map

48:25.615 --> 48:28.855
of Afghanistan, how,

48:29.125 --> 48:30.815
Afghanistan was put together

48:30.995 --> 48:35.455
or was framed by borders, you'll see the essence of

48:35.665 --> 48:38.735
where, how in 1880s

48:38.755 --> 48:43.095
and 1890s, essentially they had planted the seed

48:43.795 --> 48:46.615
for a current situation in Afghanistan

48:46.875 --> 48:48.015
in Taliban on the top.

48:48.555 --> 48:51.655
If you start looking on the map on the eastern side

48:52.245 --> 48:54.175
with Pakistan, which was British India,

48:54.685 --> 48:57.815
they divided the Pashtoon community into half.

48:58.365 --> 49:02.255
They, in fact took the more fertile grounds on which PTOs

49:02.255 --> 49:05.135
lives within British India, which is now Pakistan.

49:06.335 --> 49:10.195
And if you continue towards Iran on the southwest,

49:11.165 --> 49:15.345
the Balu community was divided into three different parts.

49:16.235 --> 49:18.085
Some of it was kept within British India.

49:18.395 --> 49:20.845
Some of it was, included in a Afghanistan

49:20.845 --> 49:22.125
and others within Iran.

49:22.665 --> 49:23.885
And there is, of course,

49:24.365 --> 49:26.645
a liberation movement both in Pakistan

49:26.785 --> 49:29.485
and in Iran against their own governments.

49:29.985 --> 49:34.165
If you continue, sort of further north, the border

49:34.165 --> 49:35.725
between Iran and Af Afghanistan,

49:35.985 --> 49:38.985
the Persian speaking population is divided.

49:39.685 --> 49:44.185
You go further up North Northwest, you'll see the,

49:44.205 --> 49:46.145
the turmans were divided.

49:46.705 --> 49:50.745
A very small strip of turmans are kept within Afghanistan,

49:50.875 --> 49:55.065
which easily could have been left to become modern day Turk,

49:55.065 --> 49:57.925
Afghanistan, but it was not, it was divided up.

49:58.425 --> 50:00.925
You go further, you see Uzbekistan,

50:02.355 --> 50:04.715
Uzbek are also in northern Afghanistan.

50:04.715 --> 50:07.275
It used to be called Turkistan land

50:07.275 --> 50:08.675
of the Turkish speaking people.

50:09.255 --> 50:11.195
So Uzbek were divided into two

50:11.695 --> 50:14.475
and further, further on Tajikistan,

50:15.175 --> 50:16.725
Tajikistan also Tajik,

50:16.725 --> 50:18.445
or in northern of north, Northeast,

50:18.605 --> 50:20.085
a Afghanistan central, a Afghanistan.

50:20.265 --> 50:21.325
So they divided them.

50:21.865 --> 50:25.525
You further go, you'll have a enclave of,

50:26.835 --> 50:28.205
so there is a Stan,

50:28.715 --> 50:32.445
this is the s community is the one I studied in the 19,

50:32.625 --> 50:33.725
seventies.

50:34.145 --> 50:37.805
Now you see the map of Afghanistan has divided all of these.

50:38.065 --> 50:40.845
And the earlier I mentioned to you, the only community,

50:41.295 --> 50:44.845
large community that is not divided by the,

50:44.845 --> 50:48.725
borders was Hazara Hazarajat in central a Afghanistan.

50:48.725 --> 50:49.805
They were the Shia community.

50:50.225 --> 50:54.125
And Abrah waged such a war on them that he killed

50:54.585 --> 50:57.645
by some estimate, 60% of the population at the time,

50:58.105 --> 50:59.965
or enslaved them and sold them in the markets.

51:00.745 --> 51:05.485
And that also moved, forced, essentially a lot of the hara

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to save their lives by going to Shia Iran

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in city of Mhar, which still has a enclave

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of Hara from a Afghanistan from that period,

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and then to Qta in Pakistan.

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And Qta has even larger community

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of Hara from the 1990s till now.

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So even that particular community that was within the center

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of Afghanistan was, divided

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and sent, as refugees to other places.

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Now, they are also part of the refugee community, you know,

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being a, being essentially, a, a force to draw

51:43.665 --> 51:46.215
their own kind out of Afghanistan

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who are desperately needing to leave the leave Afghanistan.

51:49.475 --> 51:51.535
And that becomes a home,

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or a supportive place for people to go to Qta

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or to Mahar if they are Hazara and if they are Shia.

51:59.305 --> 52:02.005
So that, that's essentially the, the, the story

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of what this book is.

52:03.465 --> 52:07.525
And the second book, modern, a Afghanistan, the impact

52:07.525 --> 52:11.805
of 40 Years of War actually speaks what this,

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continuous war

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and violence in a Afghanistan has done to the af

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to the fabric of ahan society, which is, essentially,

52:20.345 --> 52:23.285
put into display by

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what Taliban are doing today in a Afghani.

00:00 - First of all, I should say that this book is co-edited volume. at the time, I was a very junior faculty and a much more senior colleague, Robert Canfield, professor Robert Canfield, who like me, has become retired now emeritus from Washington

00:17 - University in St. Louis. We are responsible for putting this together, and I have, two major articles in the book myself, but the rest is from others. About a hundred pages of 300 page book is really mine. The rest is from other colleagues. So what's important, I think, to, tell you about this is that I finished essentially my, PhD degree in 1976, and, very, much for looking forward

00:49 - to return to Afghanistan. And then in 1978, I was still in America. I had, temporary jobs heading, back to Iran, getting a, they had job offers in that accepted one, actually, that I was going to return to Iran for three years contract. And then from there, I would go home. And unfortunately for me, a Afghanistan became impossible in 1978 to return to in Iran in 79.

01:17 - And because of that, I was, here. And at the time, actually, in 1980, I started a job at UCLA, university of California Los Angeles. And, Soviets had just essentially invaded Afghanistan and occupied it. And I contacted, professor Canfield at the time to say, maybe we should put together, some panels at the American Anthropological Association, which that year was going to be in Washington, dc.

01:49 - And we did all day symposium, essentially, on Alf, Afghanistan with 18 colleagues attending. And 15 of them were, n aons, and three of us were aons. Unfortunately, the two other two who were with us, did not either want to cont, publish their papers or had other issues. So I remained the only Aon, who was acqui and contributor to this volume. And the issue, for us was very much at that time, while communist regime, the group

02:27 - had been, mbo, you know, proclaiming essentially a revolutionary change in favor of the, essentially poor and, needy and wanted to bring about, significant supposedly Marxist change in the country. Why were people who were also impoverished or oppressed, then everything else did not accept that particular claim or offer. And instead, they rose against the regime.

02:59 - And of course, when Russians in invaded, that made it even worse. and we wanted to know what the reasons for this were from the perspective of those who essentially opposed the regime. And that was the, the critical issue really for us, because a lot of journalistic, explanations at the time, both from the Soviet side, communist Spath sympathizers in the West, and others were very superficial, very,

03:29 - really lacking a deep understanding of af foreign society. And what had happened, in fact, was Afghanistan for a long time, was not an area for research by the Westerners because it was considered to be so backwards, so difficult to get in and restrictions and all the rest. But in the 1960s, in 1970s, it had opened up a bit. Anthropologists particularly found it a more interesting place to go and do research. So a lot of, research had been done mostly

04:03 - by Westerners, who, in the 1960s and 1970s essentially, had had done work in different parts of Afghanistan. What we wanted to know was to, essentially ask them to reflect on their own field work, experience firsthand knowledge in different parts of the country, and see what they think. The people that they worked with, they had worked with were in fact, resisting or joining the resistance instead

04:34 - of accepting the communist offer of, you know, changes, radical changes in the society, some of which could have been in fact, in favor of the people if they had accepted it. But what were the reasons? So this is what the book is really about. And we had that, 1980 symposium, all the, long symposium within the framework of annual American Anthropological Association Convention in Washington, DC of all places.

05:03 - And it was really the, the best place to be because we had very large audiences and very curious people, among our, amongst our own colleagues who didn't know much. Anthropologists did not know much about Afghanistan either. So once that was finished, we thought we had a really, a bunch of really good papers, and we asked, our colleagues to revise based on the comments that they received. And of course, the editors also give,

05:29 - and 15 of them were willing to publish. And, that's what happened by 1984. We had, the initial publisher was, the Institute of International Studies at uc, Berkeley, that they took, upon that. And, you know, so it was not a commercial thing. It was, it was educational press, and they did a lot of good work on it. And we got the book out in 84. And what happened after that was

05:55 - that it got very good reviews because it really was, the most serious study of Afghanistan by anthropological community at that time. And, then it, it sold quite a bit because it was very important for policy makers as well. And I think a lot of policy makers read it as well. It may be one of the more read book about a Afghanistan until now. It sold out, it went out of print, a few years after that.

06:24 - And then it was, in demand, and it was in fact being sold for $300. I heard a copy at one point when it wasn't available. And I think in Pakistan, they may have also done some work of their own that is published at, on the sly and sell it. So, then, we thought there was need for that. And, I talked to the Indiana University Press and, they, considered republishing it. And, the International Institute at Berkeley were,

06:57 - good enough to give it, to release their, essentially copyright, to, renegotiated with Indiana University Press. And they published it last year. Essentially, the last empire, Muslim Empire, historically that came into being was in 1747. And the Paston ethnic Group up until then were clients of other empires, and they had never had their own government. And, another aha of Iran.

07:27 - Anyway, he was, the bri, you know, the Persian em emperor who had been fighting in India with, morals essentially, and had about 4,000 per, soldiers hired soldiers. And, he was assassinated in 1747. And then his, most important general Ahmad sha aash from Kandahar, essentially, seized, treasure treasury that had been, that was in fact being transported from India

08:01 - after a successful war by nad shar of Iran. and he is assassinated. He, captures this, treasury carvan, and, calls zoom shot, essentially to declare a zoom empire. And that begins to take shape in Kandahar, modern de Kandahar, where also Taliban spiritual capital right now is located in not Kabul. so that story, you know, his son does very well until from, he lives from, until 7, 9, 18, 17,

08:39 - 72. And then his sons continues until, 17, or 1800 and something. And then his, his sons then began to quarrel amongst themselves because, the son of the initial founder of the Pa Pashto Empire, then it was called the Rani Empire. That's the tribe of, their own. And, they, essentially from 22 wives began to essentially quarrel over the throne.

09:11 - And, it shifted by, 1835 to another dynasty, a related dynasty that from Zey to what is called, referred to Generalism Muhammad Ze. So it shifts over to, to the Muhammad Ze clan, and then they continue to fight. Also, there is a lot of, fighting and, imbalance. And of course, the British are beginning to middle as well. At one point, the medic, in, 18 41, 18 39, the British essentially,

09:43 - incur. I mean, it takes, makes an incursion, incursion. Two, the ahan territory. Ahan territory had been much larger. In fact, it encompassed much of Pakistan, parts of North India, and even parts of, central Asia, parts of Persia at that point. and of course, British, goes into Afghanistan, what's called first anglophone war. And the loser, after four years, they withdraw with,

10:17 - with a terrible loss of 18, 19,000 soldiers in a winter. There is a lot written about that, that people know. And of course, at that point, the great game in Central Asia is basically, being played out. The British are trying to essentially, prevent the zarus who are moving into Central Asia. By 1860s, they have essentially taken Tashkent and threatening Boha, Hiva and, other Hans in Central Asia. And of course, by 60, no, 74

10:56 - Russians had taken Hiva. And, the British were very, very, scared that they were to move south. So they made another incursion in 1879. And this time, so of course, knowing that last time they had done very, suffered very badly, they wanted to find some other solution. So, they invited a man who had been, who was, who had been a princeling, essentially named Abdurahman.

11:29 - His father was a king at one point, his uncles, him fighting and all that. So he had sort of given up and, left a Afghanistan and gone to Han under the Z Empire and the Z he had come to, essentially make a hero of Peter the Great, and his, he was, bit, they're saying he was probably not literate. I don't know. It may, may have some minor literacy, but then he were very smart guy,

11:59 - and he had learned a lot of lessons, from Zarus history. And, particularly the Zero. Peter the greatest, as you know, was one of the most horrible characters of the, you know, Russian history. so he learns a lot of things from him. They invite him to come back to Kabul, and he does, with the help of northern, people who are not from his tribe, sometimes he gets, people, you know, marrying daughters

12:27 - of important people from this, those area. In fact, he comes through Akon, which is, the place where I'm from originally. So he c comes to Kabul promising that he is, tells the people he is going to fight the British, and people come for jihad, essentially against, the British. And one night he essentially packs up people very close to Kabul, who had accompanied them up there and goes to the British journals in Kabul in August.

12:59 - They crown him, is the king of Afghanistan, and they give him a lot of cash and give him a lot of weapons and tell him, you, and we're going to draw the boundaries of Afghanistan for you. This is the, and in fact, the Afghanistan, the name Afghanistan, had been, used only once in 1801 in a, in a, treaty between, zarus, between, British India in Iran. But, by this time, it becomes, an,

13:30 - first it was called Kingdom of Kabul, and Kingdom of Kabul in Turkestan. But anyway, the name of Afghanistan becomes coined for this territory during the 1880s, 1880s. So this is the, the critical juncture that we have for the first time. A foreign power picks somebody for leadership of a country and gives them money and weapons, and let 'em lose on the people to control them. For us, you are, you are not going to have any power over,

14:04 - international policymaking, international relations. That's our pro, our, prerogative. But internally, you can do whatever you want. And this is the beginning of the end for, for the people of a Afghanistan, essentially, that he, anybody who threatened them, I imagine they were a threat. He killed them and destroyed them. In fact, he has a memoir two, volume memoir in which he says, people of a Afghanistan are like, AF Afghanistan is like a house,

14:36 - and people who oppose them are like verman. And he says he need, he needs to clear his house. So clearing houses, anybody suspects, he exiles them, kills them, assassinates them. And every horror that you can imagine has been, He himself admits that he did all of this blow people by cannons and whatnot. Anyway, the, borders were drawn by British, and money and weapons were given to Abdurahman

15:04 - to essentially make his kingdom. And he did this by 18, 19 0 1, 19 0 1. He is the only one of two, two leaders of Afghanistan who died in his own bed. And then when it came to burying him, his family was so scared that if they bury them in public cemetery, people will come and dig up his body and feed it to the dogs. So they buried him in the compound of the,

15:38 - royal family, which later on now has been preserved in the middle of a park in Kabul, and they destroyed a lot of the, you know, neighborhood around them so that, you know, there's a, is a monument there in his name. But the the problem was that they could not bury him at that time because people heated him so much that they didn't want, did not want, or could not dare bury him in the public cemetery. So his son then essentially inherited the kingdom.

16:08 - His name was Amir. And he, got the same subsidies, the same thing, and, and essentially, did what, the British wanted. but there was a movement beginning to shape within the court, against this kind of dependency on, the Ians and one of his sons, the fifth, he also had numerous wives, no, you know, full hareem and all the rest. The fifth wife called, I mean, son called Amla. essentially the suspicion is he ca he murdered his own

16:44 - father and succeeded to the throne. What happened was that subsidy by the British, and then he called independence of, of the country in 1919, that independence cost him the subsidies of both weapon and money, and people. Then he started, essentially increasing the taxes and the tax collector became, you know, wolves, skinning people, in collection of, things. So they were rebellion.

17:16 - He also introduced some, reforms, and they, a lot of people think that people rose against his reforms, but in fact, reforms were only part of the problem because he had started girls schools. And, that that was just like, now the Taliban have essentially, stopped allowing girls at that point. Some people were unhappy about that, particularly, the ancestors of the Taliban in the East.

17:43 - But the major problem was really taxation and corruption that caused it. And, it was differentially done. He himself came from a Pashtoon tribe, and then he taxed the non PTOs, especially, those are closest to Kabul, because that was easy to grab them in, you know, extract from them. And then the Hazara and, the Northern Afghanistan and the Western Afghanistan, the Persians, the Tajik,

18:10 - the vaccine, and so forth, all of those. So that was a problem. He was ousted in 1929, and then there Was an interim of nine months of government By a Tajik that they, that, regime that followed again, was Blackened them quite a bit in the history. But that, that aside, the important thing was no country recognized them during that nine months, just like Taliban

18:37 - for two years more. They have not been recognized. He was not recognized for the entire nine months, and nobody gave him a penny. So whatever was in the treasure, it was gone. Then the British essentially found another general who was, from am monologues period. But he am monologue had suspected, and he was, he had been shipped to Paris as an ambassador. So British India brought them to British India

19:05 - and send them to Northwest Frontier and give him money and give him weapons, and told him, say, go get the throne. And in fact, he did that. And he not only did that, he also, people who are north of Kabul, Koman region, where this interim Tajik ruler was from Sack, those areas did all sorts of horrors and established a monarchy that lasted until 1978. Okay? So that's the part of the story. What happened was the, another sha,

19:39 - the new king that the British installed, was assassinated by one of the, by the, by in fact, somebody who worked for a very famous, important person that he had, tortured and killed. So this young boy in school, when he was actually attending to graduation ceremony, at a graduation ceremony of the school, the school boy shot him dead in 1933. His hair was a son who was 18 years old, and that's king. So he came to the throne, and his uncles came to an agreement not to fight

20:16 - amongst themselves, but shared power. So he was on the throne, and one of his uncles became Prime Minister, and was the most vicious human being in the history of Afghanistan, and did all kinds of hor horrible things to calm down people and to, to sort of bring them. And all the reforms that the manah had done, all of them were, thrown out. And Afghanistan, every dynasty that comes, destroys everything that the previous one had done,

20:42 - and starts from the scratch again. So they scratch from there. And, three other uncles also succeed. No, two, two uncles. One of them, died, I think in 1940s. And another one became, prime Minister. He was a little gentler, a little better, SHA Ud. And then Daud, a cousin, of, the s Shah became also prime Minister for about 10 years s Hudu.

21:09 - and then of course, by that, by 19 40, 19 57, 19 57, 58, there was, I think, the s Shah who had been sort of sitting symbolically on the throne doing nothing. And his, uncles and cousins were running the country. He basically comes of age, and he wants to, now, constitute, to create a constitutional monarchy and a new constitution. In 1964, a new 63 initiated a new Constitution,

21:44 - 64, it was passed, and that he forbid his own relatives, from serving on, cabinet posts and may, you know, high of offices and so forth. So that created all kinds of tensions within the family. Dout moved out of prime ministership, but he was plotting, underneath something. And at this time, in the 19, sixties, there was also, some universities including me being in that, in that community at that time in high schools.

22:18 - And a lot of people like me were brought, brought from sixth grade graduate graduates of sixth grade from all over the country to dormitory schools, in COBOL so that the government could control them and train them in vocational things and send them back so that they can have, you know, a strong, sort of community of supporters and so forth that didn't work the way they wished. So, as these students became radicalized,

22:47 - because there was a lot of discrimination, particularly ethnic discrimination, I can't go into details, but there's a lot of that. And at the same time, people begin to have political movements, leftists the communists, of course, or a prominent thing, and then Islamists against them or form formed themselves, monarchists nationalists. There are all kinds of groups, within these, these youth group, youth group,

23:11 - and of course, there are demonstrations on the streets, shoot up. All kinds of things happen. And one of them, I, I was witness, and in fact I was speaking, this is 1966. I was a college student at the time. I had only two years of college. And the third year, fortunately for me, I got a scholarship and came to the United States. So I didn't witness the rest of it.

23:35 - But by 1972, I was a PhD candidate. I went back to a Afghanistan to do my field work, my dissertation field work. I was there when ud the cousin who was prime Minister earlier, staged iku and announced the country to be Republican regime. So monarchy was abolished by a monarch, by a member of the monarchy in, in 1972. And I was there, in fact, I had just come back from the palm, the furthest away,

24:07 - you know, spot that, that little finger that, points towards China at 12,000 feet in higher. That's where I was doing my doctoral dissertation research, studying, community of tourism, nomads, and high, altitude agriculturalists in, in the whan corridor itself. So I, I was really scared that, what's going to happen now, they were not going to let me, but nothing happened. They people sort of to, taught his,

24:34 - it was just a change within the monarchy, and they knew him already his name, so that they took it without resistance, nothing. He basically, it was one of those white cos only one or two people who shot. And, that's it. so dud became the first, what do you call, president of the country in a republic regime. And that, dud then,

25:01 - actually drew on the support of the communist parties, is one of his coalition members were these communist, communist groups who were, part of them were, with Soviet Union. Part of them were Chinese, and some of them were even Maoist. I mean, Maoist, and some of them were independent and all this. So anyway, he collaborated with the communists to come to power, and then started a very, vicious,

25:29 - policies towards the Islamist, the young Muslim or Muslim movements, Muslim youth movement, which also was in, essentially in AT of war with a communist, previous, decade or so. So that, caused a lot of these, young Muslims essentially moved to Pakistan. 'cause a Afghanistan, especially the relationship with Pakistan was not very good. So they took refuge there. And at one point there was actually an attempt

26:00 - to co against Dud. So that became even worse, that, a lot of young Muslims, came to be suspected, and a lot of them moved to Pakistan, and they, Pakistanis set up for them, essentially Mediterranean military training, support and so on and so forth. So that's the beginning of the end. And essentially, Soviet Union, wanted, dau to do certain things, but he was a nationalist.

26:28 - He himself was not a communist. He truly was a nationalist. And Brezhnev said something in one of his trips in Moscow, and he apparently walked out on him. And within a few days, then, biv had ordered the Communist Party to stage a coup. And, they killed him. 19 members of his family were slaughtered at the same time. And that's when, 1978, the Communist coup essentially occurs under the auspices of the Soviet Union.

26:57 - And after that, you know, the rest is history that everybody knows, with a Soviet intervention. The people of Afghanistan essentially rose because of two, essentially, motivation was Jihad and Jihad for them meant defending their faith and defend, defending their country. And for the first year and a half, two years, essentially, nobody had supported them. Nobody give them anything from outside.

27:25 - So it was totally, you know, ground up what, movement, by mu ordinary Muslim people. And then, of course, the elite of the Islamic youth. They, essentially also came to support some traditional, Sufi orders, some scholars. They were the ones who called the Jihad, and they, you know, became organized, to some extent. And, and by, 1979, Christmas 79, when Soviets invaded, then the American President, American Administration essentially stepped in,

28:05 - saw the opportunity to turn it into a proxy war, a proxy war, of the Cold War, essentially. So they began to fi, really hijack the jihad, the National Jihad, the national boom that was there became hijacked by the West. And of course, a lot of majority Muslim countries also chipped in. And later, by the, mid 1980s, CIA got involved, and they recruited Muslims from America, from Europe,

28:37 - everywhere, to send them to a Afghanistan to fight. This is what created the Arab Arons, 30,000 of them. And this jihad that started as a local phenomena became internationalized, globalized. So Global Jihad was in, in, essentially constructed by the West in Afghanistan to fight the Cold War against the Soviet Union. And that's, that particular, project was successful in the fact that Majdi,

29:13 - defeated the Soviet army. They withdrew in 1988, and of course, they had their own internal problems as well, that Gorbachev came and go, you know, is, Ika project and so forth. But anyway, they withdrew. And within, two, three years of, Soviet's own problems, the communist regime that they had built and left behind in 1992, collapsed And Moja, essentially were left, successful,

29:47 - militarily, but they miserably failed politically because they had no, coherent, first of all, they did not allow them to create a, a united opposition, rather encouraged to, to fight each other. There were seven groups that, ISI, the, interservice intelligence of Pakistan, the equivalent of CIA and, MI six and so forth, had, had essentially formed seven different majority resistance groups, all of them at each other's throat, none

30:25 - of them with a, with a program for political, you know, project research. So as soon as they won, they fell on each other's throat. Who is going to get the, you know, the country, to, rule essentially. so the whole notions of Islamic jihad and Islamic values, and Islamic state and stability, all of those were just gone by the wayside. They became essentially proxy warriors for, neighbors, Saudis, the Iranians, they are Pakistanis, Indians,

31:01 - even Russians, all of them took side, to, so that, that civil war, or really, there is no civil war, it's civil, you know, disaster essentially took place in Afghanistan. That groups fought each other. And then each regionally, at one point, at around 19 94, 93, 94, the country had been divided. If you look at the book, that the regions that we had, given in the, in the book, those regions,

31:32 - each essentially came to be an independent, so the semi independent entity and run by local, muja leaders, which they were then relabeled as warlords. so earlier the heroes, the mujahid and so forth, now became warlords. And that's, essentially, created an environment at which, at which Taliban rose. And the reason for that was the rest. The West was organized into a coherent,

32:06 - semi coherent entity, political entity. The North Northwest was also, had its own. They, they have all, I mean, in, RO region, which was the five provinces came together, they had a, a single leader, Ismahan, and then General Dto, the Uswe provinces, five more provinces in the Northwest, had his own even printed his own money, to that extent. And then you had Northeast and the central part, Rabbani Inma,

32:41 - who was killed on the 9th of September, 2001, they had their own government, and Kabul was their, their capital, essentially, the Hara in central a Afghanistan also had Korean government. The Eastern PTOs also had a council that ruled them. They were ab, they were, they were having their own actually airplanes, an airport, you know, flying trade, and all the rest. The only area that was left utterly a mess was Kandahar,

33:09 - the Lu Kha, the four five. And this is where at Chaos rained, and that's where, some horrible things were happening by local commanders with guns, including, abuse of young children, young boys, young girls, and, and all the rest. So, muah, Omar essentially stuck his head out in defense of one of the families whose, daughter or son had been abused. Abused. And that was a very positive development

33:39 - because he very quickly, with the support of the people, got the, the area pacified and eliminated a lot of those bad, old majority commanders. So at this point, if they had left a Afghanistan alone, they could, they were really creating sort of autonomous, regional powers. All they needed to do was to get together and create a, a central government. And then they ended up being banned.

34:07 - But that's not what ISI the Pakistani intelligence wanted. So they interfered and, turned essentially, almar, and they named them Taliban. And all the rest was done essentially by them and encouraged them that now you can, you can have, the whole country will help you go conquer. So, you know, a country that has fought its own war against communism, against the, international, you know, great power, fought in,

34:39 - won their own areas, they liberated their own areas. Now, one of the groups is going to go and conquer them. And that was the war that went on, from 1960, 1996 until 2001. And in that process, process, Al-Qaeda was also formed, because you remember 1993 war in the Gulf, and, essentially Bin Laden going back home and then getting upset with, the situation there being thrown out to Yemen, and then to, Sudan,

35:14 - and then negotiated in 1995 after the Taliban, and the first time I'd come to power. And, well, another one of their partners, they invited, bin Laden back into a Afghanistan, and that's where they then created Al-Qaeda. And of course, Al-Qaeda, then Schemed, or at least allegedly Schemed, the nine 11 and many other projects in, in the West. So, US went in, in 2001 after the nine 11 events in New York

35:46 - and Washington, DC with, the entire, you know, partners, all of NATO plus, and, spent 20 years what they called War on Terror. In fact, it wasn't war on Terror, it was, war four terror, that it did not, it did not decrease terrorism, it increased it from that. We have ISIS, and, you know, isis, gay and all kinds of other things evolved. So that, that story is, again, another, another thing which is really part

36:19 - and parcel of the continuation of what I have come to, term is Afghanistan's problematic political culture. The political culture has terrible elements, terrible, issues in it, which essentially is, essentially fermenting this continuous cycle of, war and violence and instability in the country. And those, I, my, in my judgment of four things, one is a instance. Politics is utterly person-centered, and it's also hegemonic.

36:56 - Whoever comes to power wants everything for himself. It's totally extractive that it's, it, it essentially gets money from foreigners who are mostly enemies of the country and weapons from the, from their own enemies, and then use it against their own people. So we have never had a legitimate political system in Afghanistan in his entire history, because the rulers have been given money and given weapon. And when they have g they can impose themselves. Why should they ask for people's, you know, vote

37:32 - or anything in the last 20 years? I mean, you can see earlier it was British India. Later it was Russia, Soviet Union, and later regional proxies, Saudi Arabia and this and that, that created the war. And eventually America, $2 trillion on a, on a war that went on for 20 years. And at the end, what did they do? They brought the Taliban back to power. And so the, and,

38:00 - and the third element is really abuse of Islam. Islam is instrumentalized. It's no longer a set of values, a way of life, a guidance for, for living, peacefully, humanly, dig with dignity. None of those things, no, those, those values are, are never adhere to, but it's very effective means for mobilizing people against each other and against foreigners. And the, the fourth element

38:28 - of Afghanistan's political culture, the most important one is dependency on foreign powers. Total dependency from Abdurahman. Until now, all of them have, in the only two times that nobody gave them money, they couldn't last very long. The regime couldn't last long. Right? Now, Taliban in the last two plus years have been not recognized, but given cash $40 million a week

38:59 - by the United States. Why, I'm se suggesting that in post-World War ii, we live in a very different political ecology. This political ecology is that this empire is very different from the earlier empires. This is American empire or American initiative to the empire. It's empire by invitation. They created conditions in the post war, post, colonial countries that depends on them.

39:29 - And then they, when they have trouble, they invite them. So they don't invade themselves directly. They are invited to invade. This is post World War ii, new Empire. The earlier empires were either commercial empires or, military empires and so forth, but this is a whole visions form of empire that others indulge in well as well, that they wanted to fight their great powers, wanted to fight their wars by proxy in other people's land, not in their own lands.

40:01 - There has been no war in America. America always fights at, in, it's the same time, many wars in different parts of the world. And it's because of the military industrial complex. Their entire economies dependent on war. And if they don't have a war, they will have unemployment. They'll have economic decline. They will not be able to sell, billions of dollars worth of weapons to, especially Middle Eastern countries. The creation of this, this, at this moment,

40:32 - the situation in in Raza is a good example of that. Because if there was no Israel, Joe, Joe Biden, 30, 40 years ago when wa was a young senator, had said, if there was no Israel, we had to create it because we need it in the Middle East, so that they can have, they, they create a conflict, manage the conflict, never want to resolve the conflict so that they can sell weapons. You look every year how much weapon America sold to dependent states that you have created in the middle least.

41:06 - And I have, I've looked at this in my, in my classes, and every year, at least 125 billion or more dollars, or, or, spent by various military regimes in the, in the area to buy American weapons or British weapons or French weapons and so forth. So this military industrial complex is essentially feeding into this, this, sustenance of, empire by invitation that smaller countries are now also engaging.

41:40 - So we have this new form that they do two things at the same time. They spend 200, I mean, $2 trillion in war in the 20 years in Afghanistan, but they also spend 82 or to $90 billion in reconstruction. They blow their mother of all bombs in a Afghanistan, which is now being used in smaller version in Raza to get into the tunnels and, and so on. But at the same time, they build universities. They built ro roads. They built, clinics.

42:11 - They built, all kinds of amenities that a Afghanistan didn't have. The city that had been essentially bombed to nothing is now alive back in Taliban and handed over to the Taliban. So they're doing two things simultaneously, hot war, and then humanitarian war, humanitarian, it's not humanitarian assistance. It's a form of war that sustains essentially empires by invitation today.

42:38 - And so that, that this kind of political culture, vicious political culture that we have in Taliban is produced out of that is in need of change. We have to change the political culture, not individuals. All of these individuals who have served in all the different regimes over the 140 years in a Afghanistan have essentially been built, produced by the same set of ideals and models of political thinking and political doing.

43:09 - And Taliban are, is, are really the last, form of it. So it, there is a continuity. What needs to be done is we have to change, and this is what I'm working on, in fact, with a group of Aons. we have a proposal on, on how to have essentially diagnostic diagnos diagnosed, what the problem is. And then we are proposing solutions for that, which, which requires a different kind of political system

43:35 - that is decentralized, that is, that allows for community, self-governance, the kinds of things that the West has found and adopted and, and, live by and enjoy serenity and stability. But they don't allow this to happen in other parts of the, world America could have done in the 20 years, you know, very easily, help arons create their own, system of governance that would be helpful to them. But they never did, never, never encouraged and found essentially thieves, to work with them

44:12 - to, to, and they're using A dollar is a weapon, is another, another issue that needs to be really looked at. Dollar is used to corrupt, everywhere America goes with war, you have corruption. Even Ukraine these days are saying that, you know, the president of Ukraine is also, now dirty with, various schemes of, stealing. And when you get leaders, you know, into that, that bag, they cannot do anything.

44:44 - But what you dictate and what you dictate is not to help improve the conditions in a society, but to deteriorate it so that you can remain an empire empire's businesses to be, to, to have his hands everywhere. If you don't have, if your hands are cut off, then you are no longer empire. And if these problems are solved, Israel, Arab, Israeli problem is solved, then America shouldn't have any really, relevance in, in the Middle East or the others as such.

45:16 - So they're not in the business. We shouldn't expect that they're going to solve any of these problems. They will continue to manage and continue to benefit from them. And that's it. So that there is a continuity in what, you know, the Jihad, 40 something years. Now. You remember this book, was, put together when I was a young assistant professor, and I retired last year with the same war.

45:44 - And I've been, and I, and many of my colleagues have retired from, you know, by now, who contributed to that book, or have essentially experienced and suffered collectively with the people of a Afghanistan. And the strange thing is, they may read it, but they make policies that goes against their understanding and our understanding of a country. Nobody has asked me to testify in all these years, but, colleagues

46:13 - or foreigners who have worked in Afghanistan or in fact their favorites, and they, they talk to them, they have them at the hearings and all kinds of other things. But af one scholars who have now, fortunately in the last 20 years, the number of them have grown. And, my second, edited volume that came out in 2018, modern, a Afghanistan, the impact of 40 years of war, then, has, I think 13 contributors

46:46 - who are aons in the previous volume, 13 were foreigners this time, 13 are aons. And there are, five, six, colleagues who are internationals. So there has been some, some change there, but Aons are more aware of the situation and they're organizing themselves. But will international community actually help them implement their own national prob, national program for resolving this serious crisis,

47:18 - that has dragged on for years? And it, and it's roots are in the 1880s when the British created this, buffer state in the name of ha Afghanistan, that it, it, the problem goes back to that area at even earlier. And these are constructions of, of, western world for us, and I've always said modern nation states for Europe was a blessing, but even then they created u European Union to get rid of those, those separate nations.

47:53 - But in the rest of the world, they keep dividing them. They keep, they keep, all kinds of, you know, it's a, it's a means for creating problems. And that essentially is the essence of, of the problem that modern nation state was a poison, a, a terrible poison that was introduced, particularly outside of Europe by creating ma multiethnic nation states who were divided. And that's what, when, if you look at the map of Afghanistan, how,

48:29 - Afghanistan was put together or was framed by borders, you'll see the essence of where, how in 1880s and 1890s, essentially they had planted the seed for a current situation in Afghanistan in Taliban on the top. If you start looking on the map on the eastern side with Pakistan, which was British India, they divided the Pashtoon community into half. They, in fact took the more fertile grounds on which PTOs

49:02 - lives within British India, which is now Pakistan. And if you continue towards Iran on the southwest, the Balu community was divided into three different parts. Some of it was kept within British India. Some of it was, included in a Afghanistan and others within Iran. And there is, of course, a liberation movement both in Pakistan and in Iran against their own governments. If you continue, sort of further north, the border

49:34 - between Iran and Af Afghanistan, the Persian speaking population is divided. You go further up North Northwest, you'll see the, the turmans were divided. A very small strip of turmans are kept within Afghanistan, which easily could have been left to become modern day Turk, Afghanistan, but it was not, it was divided up. You go further, you see Uzbekistan, Uzbek are also in northern Afghanistan. It used to be called Turkistan land

50:07 - of the Turkish speaking people. So Uzbek were divided into two and further, further on Tajikistan, Tajikistan also Tajik, or in northern of north, Northeast, a Afghanistan central, a Afghanistan. So they divided them. You further go, you'll have a enclave of, so there is a Stan, this is the s community is the one I studied in the 19,

50:32 - seventies. Now you see the map of Afghanistan has divided all of these. And the earlier I mentioned to you, the only community, large community that is not divided by the, borders was Hazara Hazarajat in central a Afghanistan. They were the Shia community. And Abrah waged such a war on them that he killed by some estimate, 60% of the population at the time, or enslaved them and sold them in the markets. And that also moved, forced, essentially a lot of the hara

51:05 - to save their lives by going to Shia Iran in city of Mhar, which still has a enclave of Hara from a Afghanistan from that period, and then to Qta in Pakistan. And Qta has even larger community of Hara from the 1990s till now. So even that particular community that was within the center of Afghanistan was, divided and sent, as refugees to other places. Now, they are also part of the refugee community, you know,

51:38 - being a, being essentially, a, a force to draw their own kind out of Afghanistan who are desperately needing to leave the leave Afghanistan. And that becomes a home, or a supportive place for people to go to Qta or to Mahar if they are Hazara and if they are Shia. So that, that's essentially the, the, the story of what this book is. And the second book, modern, a Afghanistan, the impact of 40 Years of War actually speaks what this,

52:12 - continuous war and violence in a Afghanistan has done to the af to the fabric of ahan society, which is, essentially, put into display by what Taliban are doing today in a Afghani.

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