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Schema play and loose parts: sustainability in action

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View the page of Kylie Ridder

Kylie Ridder discusses schema play and the benefits of using schema play to support learning for young children. Kylie also discusses the REmida the project.

Image courtesy of interviewee. April 10, 2024

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This video video discusses the concept of schema play in early childhood education, emphasizing how children engage with repetitive patterns during play. This video video idea builds on the theories of early childhood theorists like Vygotsky and PGE, with significant contributions from Chris Aie, Tina Bruce, and Kathy Nutt Brown, who identified these patterns as "Threads of Thinking."

Schema play is characterized by specific schemes, such as rotation and trajectory, where children explore movement dynamics, like spinning objects or dropping items to observe their motion. The speaker highlights the importance of deep observation in understanding how children play, illustrating this with examples and noting that children's play is systematic and purposeful, laying a foundation for later academic skills.

This video video also introduces the concept of loose parts play, which encourages creativity and self-directed learning using everyday materials without a fixed purpose. This video video approach fosters imagination and aligns with sustainability principles, particularly in the context of a recent curriculum update in Australia that prioritizes sustainability in early childhood education.

The speaker shares their experiences implementing schema play and loose parts in educational settings, emphasizing the rich learning environments created when these concepts are combined. They suggest that understanding children's play schemes can enhance educators' insights into each child's learning style and development.

Finally, the text touches upon future research interests, particularly the correlation between schema play and early mathematics, advocating for integrating play schemes into math education to improve children's engagement and understanding of the subject.

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So schema play is looking at those repetitive patterns

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of play that children,

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we can observe children engaging with.

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So it's building on that early work of PGE and Vygotsky.

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But really in the 1970s, Chris aie

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and Tina Bruce took that one step further

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and completed a number.

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And when I say a number, like thousands

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of observations on children and,

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and just observed their play to see, to see

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what was really happening.

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And they noticed

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that these repetitive patterns were playing out.

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Um, again, Kathy Nutt Brown, again,

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another UK early childhood academic, built on that

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and called it Threads of Thinking.

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So by observing children, they were able

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to see these, these patterns or these rhythms.

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In New Zealand, they actually call these rhythms play

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urges, which I quite like.

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So children have these urge to play in a certain way,

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they can't explain it.

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Um, but you know, we can really see some

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of those themes playing out.

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So probably better just to touch on some of those themes so

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that, you know, and anyone that's had children

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or worked with children will start to like,

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you know, have that aha moment.

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Um, at this point. So looking at play scheme such

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as rotation, so children are very interesting

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how things move in a circular motion.

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They're often turning in a circular motion themselves,

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maybe drawing with circles on paper.

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Sometimes we see these children playing with cars,

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but when we really observe them closely,

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it's maybe the wheels that they're interested in.

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And for me, when I learned about play scheme is it was that,

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it was that really deep observation that attracted me

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to the, to the pedagogy.

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So you're not just looking at what children are playing

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with, so the cars, but really how they're playing.

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So it was the wheels, the spinning of the wheels.

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So another early play scheme is trajectory.

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Um, so we see babies in the highchair dropping food, seeing

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how things move through space.

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Anyone that's had a baby in the house knows

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that they do it again and again and again and again.

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So they have these repeat of patterns of play that

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as they get older, they may throw things again and again.

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So how does something move through space?

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Um, so play schemes is really looking at these

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re repetitive patterns.

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Um, and as children mature

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and get older, they become more complex

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and they start to move together in clusters.

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So there's been some research showing how the play schemes,

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you know, work together and compliment each other.

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And, schema play.com,

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another UK organization have some beautiful diagrams

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that show how when we've got these complex play schemes

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and they're all working together, children can start

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to work in complex ways like reading, writing, mathematics,

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measurement, once

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that they've got these repetitive patterns,

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you know, in place.

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So that's play schemes in a nutshell. Um, so

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This project also looked at not only play

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schemes, but loose parts.

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So loose parts has been an early chartered education since,

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well probably since

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before, since time itself as children are playing out in

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that natural environment with sticks and stones

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and all sorts of things.

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But,

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Simon Nicholson in the seventies coined the term the theory

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of loose parts to talk.

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Uh, so it's about providing children with sets

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of everyday materials.

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I call them bits and bobs.

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Some people call them things,

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but they're just collections

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of things you might find in manmade

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or the natural environment.

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And because they have no direct purpose, children can play

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with them in different ways.

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So they could stack

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with them if they were in the connecting schema,

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they could throw with them if they were in the trajectory

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schema, and they can match and sort or build,

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but there's no one fixed purpose.

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So, the theory of loose parts really allows children

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to be imaginative.

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Um, it ties in really beautifully with,

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other pedagogies like Elia Pedagogy, foals work,

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whereas children are directing their own learning.

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They have agency.

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Um, and then the third sort of real dimensional pillar

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that I wanted to draw together is looking at sustainability.

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And, I'm based here in Western Australia

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and in Australia we've had a recent rewrite

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of our national curriculum for early childhood education

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right at the end of 2022.

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And sustainability got put in

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as our principle, which is fantastic.

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So that was included in the new early

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years learning framework.

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And so sustainability

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and early childhood is all about tapping into children's

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natural curiosity for the world around them, particularly

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that natural world.

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And then embedding sustainability principles.

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So, children are growing up with that respect for people

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and respect for the environment.

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Um, and so looking at environmental sustainability,

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economic sustainability, and social sustainability.

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Yeah, so children's play schemes are ways for them

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to make sense of their world.

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Um, so yeah, the research has shown that babies

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and young children are actually quite systematic

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and methodical in their play.

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So I guess to the, to the average person's eye just playing,

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and I put that in, you know, in inverted commas

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because, you know, we know that play is so integral

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to learning, but

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but the research has shown that actually you, the,

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the repetitive patterns of play show us that they're quite

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directed even from a young age in their play.

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Um, yeah, so, some, I mean,

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some researchers think they're laying down the foundations

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for, you know, for the

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Later academic work.

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We could say that the, I think that they are,

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just making sense of their world

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and it's their way to make sense.

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So you can see for some children are fixated on a certain

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scheme for quite a long time, then they may drop

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that scheme and, and look at a, a different scheme and,

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and next thing they'll revisit

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that scheme that they had before.

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So I don't think there's any one pathway,

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and I think that's why I quite like Kathy Nut Brown when she

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talks about the threads of thinking

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so she can hear it through their language.

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So even when children are telling stories,

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maybe if they're in the rotational scheme,

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they're telling stories about being dizzy

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or, you know, the wind was blowing around, you know,

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they've really got that, that rotational schema in their

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storytelling and in their behavior

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and actually in their emotional connection as well.

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So one of the educators that I worked with, she talked

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to me about a child

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that was strong in the connecting schema.

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So he liked to put things together.

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So whether he is in the sand pit,

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he's putting tubes together.

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If he is, at the at loose parts table,

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he's stacking things together, stacking things on top

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of each other, but everything is connected.

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And when he would come in in the morning, he was connected

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to his parent or caregiver.

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So he was always holding their hand

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or they were carrying him, but there was,

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or he was touching their leg.

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And at that transition time where they handed them over,

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you could see that connection.

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He would make that connection then to the educator.

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So he was touching her.

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So the play scheme even moved through to their

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emotional wellbeing.

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So emotionally he used that play scheme as an anchor.

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So schema play.com, they use that word anchor a lot.

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The play scheme anchors the play,

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but for him it really anchored that emotional,

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regulation.

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So they would hand him over,

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he would like have his hand on the educator

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or sit on her knee

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or hold her hand until he was okay with the transition.

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And emotionally he felt okay

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and then he would move off into that play.

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But she said was really interesting

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that connection was actually his play scheme as well.

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Yeah. So not only was it as behavior, it was emotions

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as language, his play.

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So Reed's quite an interesting, place.

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It's, it's not something that I have,

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direct experience in the set up of Reda,

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but I've definitely used it.

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So it's a, it's a, it's like a recycling organization

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that collects discarded waste from businesses.

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So it's clean waste, there's, specifications

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and they store it in a big warehouse.

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And schools in the early childhood educ,

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early childhood care

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and education services can have, sign up

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to be a member of Reeda.

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And in doing so, they can go

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and use any of the, this industrial waste

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That's been collected and sorted out.

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So it's a mixture between, recycling, between art,

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between creativity, between community and schools.

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And so you can see why those principles really tie in nicely

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with that Reia Amelia pedagogy.

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Um, but so my experience with Reeda as in a role

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as a pedagogical leader in a nonprofit organization,

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my role, as a leader was to work with a number

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of early learning centers.

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And of course we signed up to Reeda

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because what a fantastic resource, why wouldn't you?

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And I used to send our educators

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and they were like, can we take everything for free?

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It's like, yes, it's for free.

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They would just like go to town.

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Um, but the concept behind it did come from Italy eda.

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So the re stands for re Amelia and also recycling,

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and then the Meda comes from Greek mythology.

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So it comes from King Maas

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who everything he touched turned to gold.

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And I kind of like that concept

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because you've got all these recycled things that

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to us look a bit like rubbish.

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And for children, you know, they'll take it

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and make something amazing out of it.

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So, you know, they've got loads of fabrics.

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And often I'll take fabrics into an early learning center

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and the children are like, it's a cape, you know,

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it's a heart, it's a cubby, and go to town with it.

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So it's someone else's junk.

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'cause someone else's treasure definitely fits

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that concept really well.

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Um, so there's only 11 in the whole world.

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Edda centers only one in Australia, so that's in Perth.

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So I don't think,

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the early learning centers in schools here know

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how lucky they are to have one, you know, locally in Perth.

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Um, and yeah, like I said

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before, it's really about that community network

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and that arts and craft.

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Um, sorry, that, yeah, that creativity and the arts

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and reusing materials.

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So an example of,

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what children may have used those materials.

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I'm just thinking of all the range they had there.

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So, one of,

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I know a really interesting one that I did see

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is one time they had a whole lot

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of sleeves off shirts, like just sleeves.

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So it must have been like an industrial sewing factory that

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I didn't produce too many sleeves.

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So, this educator went

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and she's like, look what I found, I found all these sleeves

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and pockets, sleeves and pockets,

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and a place schema is transporting.

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So when children, you know, when you see children

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that are loading up, carts or push chairs with bricks

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or blocks and carrying them

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to a different part of the playground.

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So they had these pockets

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and they would like putting things in

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and taking them somewhere else and empty them out.

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And they had these long sleeves

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and they would hold the bottom of the sleeves

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and another play schemes containing.

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So they wanted to contain something in something

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else, a container.

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So they had these sleeves and they were containing

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Things in, in another play scheme is enveloping.

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So you're really wanting to wrap things in

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that we're using these sleeves to wrap up around themselves

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or to wrap up the dolls.

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And so, you know, you go to this, reed

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and you think sleeves, what could I use that for?

12:08.615 --> 12:11.755
So it's, it's, it shows how that beauty of loose parts,

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it had no intended purpose.

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So we put them out to see what the children would do

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with it, and they were able to use their play schemes

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to actually play with it in their own way.

12:22.615 --> 12:26.475
So play out these repetitive patterns of play in,

12:26.695 --> 12:29.155
in those varied ways, particularly in,

12:29.185 --> 12:32.315
this was like a case study where in my work

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as a pedagogical leader, I delivered some workshops

12:35.935 --> 12:37.315
to early learning centers.

12:37.415 --> 12:40.195
And one of, one of the workshops that was,

12:40.265 --> 12:41.955
requested was on play schemes.

12:42.975 --> 12:44.955
So, I delivered the workshop

12:45.055 --> 12:46.595
and then got a call not long after,

12:46.695 --> 12:51.075
and the educator, her name is Fernanda Santiago,

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she contacted me and she said, you have to come and,

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and visit our room.

12:56.215 --> 12:58.635
So she had a room of two to three year olds.

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So I went and visited her room

13:00.695 --> 13:03.635
and it was just, it was, I can only explain it

13:03.635 --> 13:06.835
by saying it was just alive, but the children were engaged

13:06.935 --> 13:09.315
and they were busy, and there was just this whole

13:09.425 --> 13:10.435
buzz to the room.

13:11.295 --> 13:14.675
And they had combined my workshop on play schemes

13:14.825 --> 13:17.475
with visiting Bermuda, using the loose parts.

13:18.175 --> 13:20.755
Um, thinking about that sustainability, they didn't have

13:20.755 --> 13:22.795
to purchase anything, you know, using

13:22.985 --> 13:26.155
what other people had thrown away essentially.

13:27.465 --> 13:31.405
And so using that, together, I noticed

13:31.405 --> 13:33.525
that the observations were really rich.

13:33.985 --> 13:36.765
So it wasn't just on what the children were playing with,

13:36.825 --> 13:38.485
but it was really how they were playing.

13:38.905 --> 13:41.445
And then how they could use more of the loose parts

13:41.465 --> 13:43.645
to support those individual play schemes.

13:44.245 --> 13:45.405
I felt they really got

13:45.405 --> 13:47.565
to know the children on a deeper level.

13:48.065 --> 13:49.085
So they were saying,

13:49.115 --> 13:50.765
look at this child, look what he's doing.

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I've noticed his play scheme.

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Um, whereas I hadn't noticed that before.

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And I do find sometimes that two

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to 3-year-old age group can be quite challenging.

14:00.645 --> 14:02.455
Yeah, the children are moving away from

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those strong relationships.

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They're not quite independent enough, you know, it's sort

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of, it's a really transition time for them

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as they're on their own journey of discovery

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and just seeing this room alive and the children engaged

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and, and just the laughter.

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Like I could just hear children laughing and so, yeah.

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Um, with all the new apps that they use for documentation

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that would capture some of them and send them to me.

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And yeah, it was just was brilliant just seeing all this,

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you know, theory and practice

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and how, how it really worked for the,

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for the benefit of those children.

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So I'd love to see more like those action research projects

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that we can learn from each other

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and teachers supporting other teachers.

14:45.915 --> 14:49.215
Uh, and yeah, just seeing that that rich environment

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that, we're

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Having those, the three main dimensions

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or pillars coming together really supported.

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Um, so looking at areas of future research, I,

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I'm really interested in looking at the correlations

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between schema play and early mathematics.

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So there's really high correlations

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between beginning mathematics processes and play schemes.

15:13.425 --> 15:14.685
And so looking at

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how we can integrate them more into the classroom.

15:17.785 --> 15:19.845
So, you know, this, the project

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that I did was really looking at children from two

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to three years old, really moving them forward into

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that school-based environment as well,

15:29.515 --> 15:33.875
particularly looking at the mathematics climate within

15:33.935 --> 15:35.115
our education sector.

15:35.115 --> 15:37.435
There's a lot of maths aversion, there's a lot

15:37.435 --> 15:38.435
of maths anxiety.

15:39.015 --> 15:41.875
Uh, well, mathematics is actually quite an interesting

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creative imaginative topic.

15:44.035 --> 15:47.035
I actually really enjoy teaching mathematics as well.

15:47.735 --> 15:50.955
And so if we can incorporate some of those, you know,

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those natural play schemes

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that children are naturally interested in, as educators,

15:56.295 --> 15:59.475
it makes us, you know, tune into the child more

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so they can tune into how the child's, learning,

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thinking and then using those play schemes,

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to, to, to teach some

16:10.645 --> 16:13.045
of those early mathematics processes I

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think would be really useful.

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So that's what I'm personally looking at at the moment.

00:00 - So schema play is looking at those repetitive patterns of play that children, we can observe children engaging with. So it's building on that early work of PGE and Vygotsky. But really in the 1970s, Chris aie and Tina Bruce took that one step further

00:18 - and completed a number. And when I say a number, like thousands of observations on children and, and just observed their play to see, to see what was really happening. And they noticed that these repetitive patterns were playing out. again, Kathy Nutt Brown, again, another UK early childhood academic, built on that and called it Threads of Thinking.

00:43 - So by observing children, they were able to see these, these patterns or these rhythms. In New Zealand, they actually call these rhythms play urges, which I quite like. So children have these urge to play in a certain way, they can't explain it. but you know, we can really see some of those themes playing out. So probably better just to touch on some of those themes so that, you know, and anyone that's had children

01:08 - or worked with children will start to like, you know, have that aha moment. at this point. So looking at play scheme such as rotation, so children are very interesting how things move in a circular motion. They're often turning in a circular motion themselves, maybe drawing with circles on paper. Sometimes we see these children playing with cars, but when we really observe them closely, it's maybe the wheels that they're interested in.

01:35 - And for me, when I learned about play scheme is it was that, it was that really deep observation that attracted me to the, to the pedagogy. So you're not just looking at what children are playing with, so the cars, but really how they're playing. So it was the wheels, the spinning of the wheels. So another early play scheme is trajectory. so we see babies in the highchair dropping food, seeing how things move through space. Anyone that's had a baby in the house knows

02:04 - that they do it again and again and again and again. So they have these repeat of patterns of play that as they get older, they may throw things again and again. So how does something move through space? so play schemes is really looking at these re repetitive patterns. and as children mature and get older, they become more complex and they start to move together in clusters. So there's been some research showing how the play schemes,

02:29 - you know, work together and compliment each other. And, schema play.com, another UK organization have some beautiful diagrams that show how when we've got these complex play schemes and they're all working together, children can start to work in complex ways like reading, writing, mathematics, measurement, once that they've got these repetitive patterns, you know, in place. So that's play schemes in a nutshell. so

02:58 - This project also looked at not only play schemes, but loose parts. So loose parts has been an early chartered education since, well probably since before, since time itself as children are playing out in that natural environment with sticks and stones and all sorts of things. But, Simon Nicholson in the seventies coined the term the theory of loose parts to talk.

03:22 - so it's about providing children with sets of everyday materials. I call them bits and bobs. Some people call them things, but they're just collections of things you might find in manmade or the natural environment. And because they have no direct purpose, children can play with them in different ways. So they could stack

03:45 - with them if they were in the connecting schema, they could throw with them if they were in the trajectory schema, and they can match and sort or build, but there's no one fixed purpose. So, the theory of loose parts really allows children to be imaginative. it ties in really beautifully with, other pedagogies like Elia Pedagogy, foals work, whereas children are directing their own learning. They have agency.

04:14 - and then the third sort of real dimensional pillar that I wanted to draw together is looking at sustainability. And, I'm based here in Western Australia and in Australia we've had a recent rewrite of our national curriculum for early childhood education right at the end of 2022. And sustainability got put in as our principle, which is fantastic. So that was included in the new early years learning framework.

04:43 - And so sustainability and early childhood is all about tapping into children's natural curiosity for the world around them, particularly that natural world. And then embedding sustainability principles. So, children are growing up with that respect for people and respect for the environment. and so looking at environmental sustainability, economic sustainability, and social sustainability. Yeah, so children's play schemes are ways for them

05:11 - to make sense of their world. so yeah, the research has shown that babies and young children are actually quite systematic and methodical in their play. So I guess to the, to the average person's eye just playing, and I put that in, you know, in inverted commas because, you know, we know that play is so integral to learning, but but the research has shown that actually you, the, the repetitive patterns of play show us that they're quite

05:45 - directed even from a young age in their play. yeah, so, some, I mean, some researchers think they're laying down the foundations for, you know, for the Later academic work. We could say that the, I think that they are, just making sense of their world and it's their way to make sense. So you can see for some children are fixated on a certain scheme for quite a long time, then they may drop

06:12 - that scheme and, and look at a, a different scheme and, and next thing they'll revisit that scheme that they had before. So I don't think there's any one pathway, and I think that's why I quite like Kathy Nut Brown when she talks about the threads of thinking so she can hear it through their language. So even when children are telling stories, maybe if they're in the rotational scheme, they're telling stories about being dizzy

06:36 - or, you know, the wind was blowing around, you know, they've really got that, that rotational schema in their storytelling and in their behavior and actually in their emotional connection as well. So one of the educators that I worked with, she talked to me about a child that was strong in the connecting schema. So he liked to put things together. So whether he is in the sand pit, he's putting tubes together.

07:03 - If he is, at the at loose parts table, he's stacking things together, stacking things on top of each other, but everything is connected. And when he would come in in the morning, he was connected to his parent or caregiver. So he was always holding their hand or they were carrying him, but there was, or he was touching their leg. And at that transition time where they handed them over, you could see that connection.

07:25 - He would make that connection then to the educator. So he was touching her. So the play scheme even moved through to their emotional wellbeing. So emotionally he used that play scheme as an anchor. So schema play.com, they use that word anchor a lot. The play scheme anchors the play, but for him it really anchored that emotional, regulation. So they would hand him over,

07:49 - he would like have his hand on the educator or sit on her knee or hold her hand until he was okay with the transition. And emotionally he felt okay and then he would move off into that play. But she said was really interesting that connection was actually his play scheme as well. Yeah. So not only was it as behavior, it was emotions as language, his play. So Reed's quite an interesting, place.

08:18 - It's, it's not something that I have, direct experience in the set up of Reda, but I've definitely used it. So it's a, it's a, it's like a recycling organization that collects discarded waste from businesses. So it's clean waste, there's, specifications and they store it in a big warehouse. And schools in the early childhood educ, early childhood care and education services can have, sign up

08:47 - to be a member of Reeda. And in doing so, they can go and use any of the, this industrial waste That's been collected and sorted out. So it's a mixture between, recycling, between art, between creativity, between community and schools. And so you can see why those principles really tie in nicely with that Reia Amelia pedagogy. but so my experience with Reeda as in a role as a pedagogical leader in a nonprofit organization,

09:19 - my role, as a leader was to work with a number of early learning centers. And of course we signed up to Reeda because what a fantastic resource, why wouldn't you? And I used to send our educators and they were like, can we take everything for free? It's like, yes, it's for free. They would just like go to town. but the concept behind it did come from Italy eda. So the re stands for re Amelia and also recycling,

09:45 - and then the Meda comes from Greek mythology. So it comes from King Maas who everything he touched turned to gold. And I kind of like that concept because you've got all these recycled things that to us look a bit like rubbish. And for children, you know, they'll take it and make something amazing out of it. So, you know, they've got loads of fabrics. And often I'll take fabrics into an early learning center

10:07 - and the children are like, it's a cape, you know, it's a heart, it's a cubby, and go to town with it. So it's someone else's junk. 'cause someone else's treasure definitely fits that concept really well. so there's only 11 in the whole world. Edda centers only one in Australia, so that's in Perth. So I don't think, the early learning centers in schools here know how lucky they are to have one, you know, locally in Perth.

10:35 - and yeah, like I said before, it's really about that community network and that arts and craft. sorry, that, yeah, that creativity and the arts and reusing materials. So an example of, what children may have used those materials. I'm just thinking of all the range they had there. So, one of, I know a really interesting one that I did see

11:02 - is one time they had a whole lot of sleeves off shirts, like just sleeves. So it must have been like an industrial sewing factory that I didn't produce too many sleeves. So, this educator went and she's like, look what I found, I found all these sleeves and pockets, sleeves and pockets, and a place schema is transporting. So when children, you know, when you see children that are loading up, carts or push chairs with bricks

11:30 - or blocks and carrying them to a different part of the playground. So they had these pockets and they would like putting things in and taking them somewhere else and empty them out. And they had these long sleeves and they would hold the bottom of the sleeves and another play schemes containing. So they wanted to contain something in something else, a container.

11:50 - So they had these sleeves and they were containing Things in, in another play scheme is enveloping. So you're really wanting to wrap things in that we're using these sleeves to wrap up around themselves or to wrap up the dolls. And so, you know, you go to this, reed and you think sleeves, what could I use that for? So it's, it's, it shows how that beauty of loose parts, it had no intended purpose. So we put them out to see what the children would do

12:16 - with it, and they were able to use their play schemes to actually play with it in their own way. So play out these repetitive patterns of play in, in those varied ways, particularly in, this was like a case study where in my work as a pedagogical leader, I delivered some workshops to early learning centers. And one of, one of the workshops that was, requested was on play schemes. So, I delivered the workshop

12:45 - and then got a call not long after, and the educator, her name is Fernanda Santiago, she contacted me and she said, you have to come and, and visit our room. So she had a room of two to three year olds. So I went and visited her room and it was just, it was, I can only explain it by saying it was just alive, but the children were engaged and they were busy, and there was just this whole buzz to the room.

13:11 - And they had combined my workshop on play schemes with visiting Bermuda, using the loose parts. thinking about that sustainability, they didn't have to purchase anything, you know, using what other people had thrown away essentially. And so using that, together, I noticed that the observations were really rich. So it wasn't just on what the children were playing with, but it was really how they were playing. And then how they could use more of the loose parts

13:41 - to support those individual play schemes. I felt they really got to know the children on a deeper level. So they were saying, look at this child, look what he's doing. I've noticed his play scheme. whereas I hadn't noticed that before. And I do find sometimes that two to 3-year-old age group can be quite challenging. Yeah, the children are moving away from

14:02 - those strong relationships. They're not quite independent enough, you know, it's sort of, it's a really transition time for them as they're on their own journey of discovery and just seeing this room alive and the children engaged and, and just the laughter. Like I could just hear children laughing and so, yeah. with all the new apps that they use for documentation that would capture some of them and send them to me. And yeah, it was just was brilliant just seeing all this,

14:31 - you know, theory and practice and how, how it really worked for the, for the benefit of those children. So I'd love to see more like those action research projects that we can learn from each other and teachers supporting other teachers. and yeah, just seeing that that rich environment that, we're Having those, the three main dimensions or pillars coming together really supported.

14:55 - so looking at areas of future research, I, I'm really interested in looking at the correlations between schema play and early mathematics. So there's really high correlations between beginning mathematics processes and play schemes. And so looking at how we can integrate them more into the classroom. So, you know, this, the project that I did was really looking at children from two to three years old, really moving them forward into

15:26 - that school-based environment as well, particularly looking at the mathematics climate within our education sector. There's a lot of maths aversion, there's a lot of maths anxiety. well, mathematics is actually quite an interesting creative imaginative topic. I actually really enjoy teaching mathematics as well. And so if we can incorporate some of those, you know, those natural play schemes

15:52 - that children are naturally interested in, as educators, it makes us, you know, tune into the child more so they can tune into how the child's, learning, thinking and then using those play schemes, to, to, to teach some of those early mathematics processes I think would be really useful. So that's what I'm personally looking at at the moment.

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