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Sociology of Whiteness

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The past 20 years have witnessed a tremendous accumulation of research in whiteness studies in general, and in the sociology of whiteness in particular

Image courtesy of interviewee. January 11, 2024

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The transcript discusses the concept of whiteness and its historical and social implications, drawing heavily from the works of scholars like W.E.B. Du Bois and Eduardo Bonilla Silva. It emphasizes that whiteness involves both overt racial dominance and more subtle forms of institutional power, which are often difficult to recognize. This video video invisibility of whiteness contributes to white privilege, which manifests in various societal structures.

This video video critiques the notion of colorblindness, highlighting that claiming not to see race does not promote equality but rather obscures the privileges associated with being white. This video video denial can perpetuate systemic racism by ignoring the historical context and ongoing inequalities.

Key principles of colorblind racism include abstract liberalism, naturalization, cultural racism, and minimization of racism's relevance today. The discussion includes how individuals may distance themselves from whiteness due to its negative associations with racism and the resulting privilege.

The impact of social class on perceptions of whiteness is also examined, particularly the stigma associated with poor white communities. Whiteness is portrayed as an expectation that can be violated, leading to derogatory terms like "white trash."

This video video concludes by exploring the connection between white identity and anti-racism, suggesting that both anti-racists and white supremacists often share a strong awareness of their racial identity, though they interpret and act on it in polar opposite ways. Overall, the conversation highlights the complexity of racial identity and the ongoing challenges of addressing systemic racism and privilege.

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Here are some key quotes from the video related to the themes of whiteness, privilege, and racism:

1. **On the definition of whiteness**:
- "One of the earliest definitions of whiteness... kind of a combination of overt forms of racial dominance with more subtle forms of power."

2. **On the invisibility of whiteness**:
- "The invisibility of whiteness is really one of its central and probably most interesting characteristics."

3. **On colorblindness and its implications**:
- "The most dangerous part of colorblindness is that it exists under this guise of being committed to equality."

4. **On the denial of racial differences**:
- "To say that there's no racial difference means there's no difference in privilege."

5. **On the components of colorblind racism (Eduardo Bonilla Silva)**:
- "There are basically four components to colorblind racism... abstract liberalism, naturalization, cultural racism, and minimization."

6. **On white identity and social class**:
- "It's fascinating to have someone who has a privileged racial status combined with a subordinate class status."

7. **On the complexity of whiteness and privilege**:
- "There's this kind of striking testament to these expectations of what it is to be white."

8. **On the dynamics of white spaces**:
- "Patrolling the boundaries of white spaces is... something that occurs."

9. **On Peggy McIntosh's work**:
- "She kind of wrote about that... led people to start really thinking about white privilege and sort of invisible whiteness in a new way."

10. **On anti-racism and white identity**:
- "People who are most anti-racist... actually have a very strong white identity."

These quotes represent some of the core ideas discussed in the video around the concept of whiteness, privilege, colorblindness, and the implications of these identities in societal structures.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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One of the earliest definitions of whiteness.

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Um, it's probably from WEB Du Bois, the earliest,

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early part of the 20th century.

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Um, and he said that it was kind of a combination of

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overt forms of, racial dominance

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with more subtle forms of power.

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And this is a theme that what has recurred ever since?

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That there's this racialization of, big structures,

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institutions and processes, combined with, more

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overt, sort of, like racist ideologies,

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white racial identity,

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and this, kind of more subtle, forms

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of, of, of racism, of white racial dominance.

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Um, the big picture stuff, the inter weaving

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of white privilege, with institutions tends

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to be very hard to see,

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and is a very important source of, white privilege

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and power and control.

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Um, and it's the ideologies

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and the identities, which are also very important parts

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of white dominance,

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and centers of whiteness, that tend to be easier,

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to see the invisibility of, of whiteness is,

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really one of its, central

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and probably most interesting characteristics.

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And it's, can sort of start with a somewhat prosaic,

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aspects, which is, people who say, well,

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I don't have a race, right?

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Um, you know, white, white isn't really a race, black

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or Asian or Latino or indigenous, that's a race.

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Um, but you know, whiteness, white isn't that,

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it's the neutral, the default,

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or more kind of insidiously.

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Uh, the normal. And the other groups are,

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are the other, are the, the not normal.

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And so the fact that, you know, white is a race is kind

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of invisible, to people, to some people.

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Um, and then there's almost a subset of, you know,

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the sort of invisibility of whiteness, is colorblindness

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or the colorblind racist.

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And, as you know, Megan Burke, has written about,

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there's, kind of this individualism that's at the,

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the center, of this colorblindness.

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Um, and it's, things like,

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like I don't see race at all.

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Um, people are, you know, could be black,

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they could be white, they could be red,

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they could be purple.

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It doesn't matter to me. Um,

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or, the, the sort of, the really, kind

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of the most dangerous part of colorblindness is

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that it exists under this guise of being committed

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to equality, right?

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Um, I don't believe in race.

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I don't see race, because everyone is the same.

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Um, I believe that we're all alike,

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and this sounds really good, right?

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Uh, being committed to equality, who doesn't like that?

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It seems very progressive.

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Um, but by ignoring the existence of race,

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by saying we're all exactly the same,

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that sort of, hides the fact renders invisible

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really important, privileges of whiteness.

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Um, to say

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that there's no racial difference means there's no

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difference in privilege.

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Um, and this means that sort of these,

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real advantages that have accumulated over the course

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of centuries, haven't happened.

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And, Eduardo Bonilla Silva has, outlined some

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of the, sort of key principles behind,

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colorblind racism, in his, book racism,

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without racists, which is a great summation right there of

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what colorblindness is.

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Um, these people are not engaging in the overt form

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of racism at all, yet it's still a type of racism.

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And, he says that,

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there are basically four components to,

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colorblind racism.

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Um, one is abstract liberalism, which is

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like individualism or equal opportunity.

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Um, this sense that we all have the same chances in life,

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to get ahead.

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It's all about our, our own actions and choices.

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Um, there's also, naturalization, so,

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kind of racism just, unfolds naturally.

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So you might have a poor black neighborhood,

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and, it kind of just got that way naturally.

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It wasn't a result of, government policies

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or, you know, blending practices.

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Um, none of these things, it just people's choices to

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what they're happening with.

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Um, there's also cultural racism, which is,

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and negative beliefs about the cultural practices of people

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of color and stereotypes.

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Um, and then finally there's minimization, which is

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to say that, you know, racism, claims racism,

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aren't relevant anymore.

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Um, that racism is something that happened in the past,

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and now, you know, basically doesn't exist really.

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Um, we're all the same for in terms

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of distaste for whiteness.

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Um, that, so there are different kinds of people that,

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have distaste for whiteness for different reasons.

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Um, so there's this sort of, the most trivial

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of the reasons, I'll say is people who think that,

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it's boring, that it's plain.

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So, why would anyone wanna be just white?

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Um, so there are people who are actually adopting,

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European ethnicities in the us, where their parents

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or grandparents had shed them and wanted to just be white.

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Um, and now they're saying, no, no, no,

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I wanna be Irish American or Italian American.

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'cause that's more interesting, than just being white.

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Um, and there are actually, people who are, lots

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of people who are doing, getting a DNA test done who are,

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discovering, that they are,

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in their minds, getting these tests back that say

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that they're, you know, have Native American ancestry

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or African ancestry.

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And Wendy Roth and her colleagues have, have shown

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that this has really transformed the way

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that they think about, their racial identity

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and, their distaste for being just white,

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has led them

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to shift their thinking into not being white.

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And this is actually influencing the size

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of the Native American population to a degree.

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Um, and then, kind of, different reason for,

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having a distaste for whiteness is its association

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with being racist.

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Um, and people of course, don't like to think

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of themselves or be thought of by others as being racist.

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Um, and one way of distancing themselves from that is to,

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distance themselves from the identity from

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whiteness in general.

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Um, and distancing,

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oneself from whiteness is also distancing oneself from the

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privilege, that accrues to whiteness,

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which is distancing oneself from the responsibility

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that is a part of that privilege.

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In terms of the social class. And whiteness is fascinating.

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Um, to have someone who is, has a privileged,

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racial status combined with a subordinate class status,

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really highlights, the, expectations

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of privilege, of privileges, of whiteness, even

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among the many people who will, deny

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that whiteness is afforded any privileges,

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all the colorblind people, all the people

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who say whiteness is invisible.

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That kind of changes when there, that,

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assumption about whiteness and affluence is violated.

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Um, and so among poor whites, there's this,

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sense that there must be something wrong individually wrong

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with poor whites.

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Um, they're defective in some way.

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Um, and it leads to denigrations of this group.

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Um, like the use for, example of the term white trash.

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Um, trash is a very dehumanizing term,

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and it's importantly paired with the word white,

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that show that, it's

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because they've violated these expectations,

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of being a member of, of that race.

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Um, and, you know, it's a, a really kind

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of striking, testament to these sort

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of expectations of, of what it is to be white.

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There's a way in which, space

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and whiteness is often kind of, related in the same way

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that poverty and whiteness is related.

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Um, for example, with, sort

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of low income urban neighborhoods

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or trailer parks, one sees this, the sense that,

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you know, the, the entitlement of whiteness has kind

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of been violated.

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Um, and why haven't these people moved up and out by now?

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Um, there must be something wrong with them,

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if they're living in these communities.

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Um, and there's actually not always,

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a connection to poverty.

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Um, there's, Shirley has a study of,

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white southerners who, when they

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leave Mississippi,

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and go to any sort of place outside the South

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report being treated as if they're,

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they're terrible racists,

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because they're from the south.

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And so being from a re particular region,

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and associations of whiteness with that region,

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can also lead to, certain assumptions, about

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who one is and space, in terms of neighborhood

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and the way, it's, patrolled

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or defended by the people who live there,

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is another way in which it's connected to whiteness.

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Um, so for example, people who are white groups

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of whites may have this, this sense, this feeling

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that they, own, quote their,

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neighborhood and it's their job to

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maintain its whiteness and to keep out, people of color,

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whether not just as home buyers, or renters,

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but also as, just people passing through.

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Um, that one isn't allowed to even be a pedestrian,

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in the, the community if one isn't white.

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So patrolling the boundaries of white spaces,

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is also something that, that occurs.

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One of the classics in whiteness studies is,

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Peggy Macintosh's White privilege,

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unpacking the invisible knapsack.

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Um, and she comes from, you know, feminist work

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and she, had, you know, that, men would,

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be more than willing to acknowledge overt acts

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of sexism, but would be, you know, very unwilling

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to acknowledge, male dominance in society,

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or any kind of systematic structural power.

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Um, and she kind of realized, I mean, it's the same,

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thing for whites like me, that,

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we're willing in most cases to acknowledge, over acts

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of racism, but unwilling to, to see

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or to acknowledge, you know,

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structural forms of privilege.

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And so she kind of wrote about that,

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and led people to start, really thinking about,

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white privilege and sort of invisible

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whiteness in a new way.

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Um, and she found, and,

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and later authors found that it was really difficult

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for white women, to move from,

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understanding their experience of, oppression as women,

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with sexist depression to thinking about themselves

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as privileged.

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Um, and it's something one season, a lot of intersecting,

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identities that kind of, you know,

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cross-cutting identities where one is a privileged identity

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and one is, is not a privileged identity,

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but, there can be a lot of struggle

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that that goes on there.

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Um, it's especially the case, when there is a kind

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of the racist image and a sexist image combined.

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Um, so for example, there's, common,

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racist and sexist, image of women, white women

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as fragile and chased

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and in need of defending, that has been the source of,

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violence against especially black men, by white men.

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Um, for, you know, centuries white identity is,

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sort of a part of whiteness for sure.

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Um, it's a little different than these kind

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of big structures,

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and invisible sources of privilege that,

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we've been primarily talking about

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because it's, it's at the individual level,

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and it's sort of much more variable, than some

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of the big picture stuff.

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And, it's related to kind of categories

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and in, a lot of ways,

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and it's, in terms of the ways that, it's measured,

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usually in a lot of, a lot of this work is done, with

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through surveys, anymore it's in terms of the kind

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of closeness that one feels, towards, one's identity

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as a white person,

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and how strong, one's identity is.

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So how much a part of, who one is being white is,

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and then how much, what happens

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to white people in general, affects what happens

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to one as an individual.

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So how much one is called linked fate,

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how much one's fate is linked to others.

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Um, and we find really interesting,

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in terms of the connection between, resistance to racism

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and white identity.

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So you kind of think it could go either way, right?

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Um, to people who are anti-racists,

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do they have a strong white identity

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or a weak white identity,

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and you think, well, they have a weak white identity

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'cause to, to be like really connected to being white,

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must make you racist.

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Um, and it turns out that's not the case that, people

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who are most anti-racist, most committed to anti-racism,

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actually a very strong, white identity,

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so very important to 'em.

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Um, people who are white supremacists also have,

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a very strong white identity.

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Um, and the difference, of course is

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what that means to them.

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So the white supremacist, is very proud of being white.

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Um, so that's why it's important to them.

16:24.475 --> 16:28.995
Um, the anti-racist white being white is a big deal,

16:29.215 --> 16:31.355
to them, but it's,

16:31.585 --> 16:35.075
because they're so aware of being privileged

16:35.345 --> 16:37.915
that it motivates, a lot of their action.

16:38.375 --> 16:41.035
Um, and so they think about being white a lot

16:41.295 --> 16:43.235
and it's important,

16:43.495 --> 16:48.035
and their, feel like their f is linked to the fate

16:48.035 --> 16:50.275
of other whites in the movement,

16:50.575 --> 16:52.435
and to other whites who are privileged.

16:52.575 --> 16:54.595
Um, I anticipate that a little bit in terms

16:54.615 --> 16:56.035
of the, the identity.

16:56.175 --> 16:58.875
But, there's actually, Matthew Huey did this,

16:59.195 --> 17:01.275
interesting study of two organizations,

17:01.795 --> 17:04.915
a white nationalist organization, anti-racist organization,

17:05.655 --> 17:08.075
and kind of related

17:08.215 --> 17:10.595
to the white identity piece, a little different.

17:10.975 --> 17:13.555
Um, he found that they thought about,

17:13.865 --> 17:17.755
what the white race, basically what it is, to be white,

17:18.215 --> 17:21.955
the boundaries of whiteness, in the same way.

17:22.015 --> 17:24.115
So their definitions of white are the same.

17:24.575 --> 17:29.315
It was, it's this fundamental kind of immutable essential,

17:29.655 --> 17:32.195
category that's not going anywhere.

17:32.495 --> 17:34.635
Um, and has very clear boundaries, you know,

17:34.635 --> 17:35.755
who's then we know who's out.

17:36.295 --> 17:39.835
Um, but kind of, you know, surprising that,

17:40.105 --> 17:42.315
anti-racist would, would think this way.

17:42.935 --> 17:45.755
Um, not that surprising that white supremacists would.

17:46.335 --> 17:48.835
Um, but then what they make of that, of course is

17:49.655 --> 17:50.655
Polar opposite.

17:51.145 --> 17:55.125
So the, anti-racist say,

17:55.715 --> 17:59.835
this is just, you know, moral abomination,

18:00.105 --> 18:03.635
that this exists and we have to do, you know, what we can

18:03.655 --> 18:05.515
to fight any ill effects in the world.

18:06.175 --> 18:09.275
Um, and then the, the white supremacists say,

18:09.275 --> 18:10.715
this is our God given, right?

18:10.935 --> 18:14.675
And, we need to, you know, capitalize upon it

18:14.815 --> 18:18.555
and argue, you know, work in its favor and the like.

18:18.895 --> 18:21.955
Um, he also found that both groups, had found

18:21.955 --> 18:25.595
that whites were, were somewhat under threat, in a way

18:26.245 --> 18:28.795
which was, also a little bit surprising in terms

18:28.795 --> 18:30.075
of the anti-racist group.

00:00 - One of the earliest definitions of whiteness. it's probably from WEB Du Bois, the earliest, early part of the 20th century. and he said that it was kind of a combination of overt forms of, racial dominance with more subtle forms of power.

00:21 - And this is a theme that what has recurred ever since? That there's this racialization of, big structures, institutions and processes, combined with, more overt, sort of, like racist ideologies, white racial identity, and this, kind of more subtle, forms of, of, of racism, of white racial dominance. the big picture stuff, the inter weaving of white privilege, with institutions tends to be very hard to see,

01:05 - and is a very important source of, white privilege and power and control. and it's the ideologies and the identities, which are also very important parts of white dominance, and centers of whiteness, that tend to be easier, to see the invisibility of, of whiteness is, really one of its, central and probably most interesting characteristics. And it's, can sort of start with a somewhat prosaic,

01:37 - aspects, which is, people who say, well, I don't have a race, right? you know, white, white isn't really a race, black or Asian or Latino or indigenous, that's a race. but you know, whiteness, white isn't that, it's the neutral, the default, or more kind of insidiously. the normal. And the other groups are, are the other, are the, the not normal. And so the fact that, you know, white is a race is kind

02:12 - of invisible, to people, to some people. and then there's almost a subset of, you know, the sort of invisibility of whiteness, is colorblindness or the colorblind racist. And, as you know, Megan Burke, has written about, there's, kind of this individualism that's at the, the center, of this colorblindness. and it's, things like, like I don't see race at all. people are, you know, could be black,

02:51 - they could be white, they could be red, they could be purple. It doesn't matter to me. or, the, the sort of, the really, kind of the most dangerous part of colorblindness is that it exists under this guise of being committed to equality, right? I don't believe in race. I don't see race, because everyone is the same. I believe that we're all alike,

03:18 - and this sounds really good, right? being committed to equality, who doesn't like that? It seems very progressive. but by ignoring the existence of race, by saying we're all exactly the same, that sort of, hides the fact renders invisible really important, privileges of whiteness. to say that there's no racial difference means there's no difference in privilege.

03:51 - and this means that sort of these, real advantages that have accumulated over the course of centuries, haven't happened. And, Eduardo Bonilla Silva has, outlined some of the, sort of key principles behind, colorblind racism, in his, book racism, without racists, which is a great summation right there of what colorblindness is. these people are not engaging in the overt form of racism at all, yet it's still a type of racism.

04:27 - And, he says that, there are basically four components to, colorblind racism. one is abstract liberalism, which is like individualism or equal opportunity. this sense that we all have the same chances in life, to get ahead. It's all about our, our own actions and choices. there's also, naturalization, so, kind of racism just, unfolds naturally.

05:02 - So you might have a poor black neighborhood, and, it kind of just got that way naturally. It wasn't a result of, government policies or, you know, blending practices. none of these things, it just people's choices to what they're happening with. there's also cultural racism, which is, and negative beliefs about the cultural practices of people of color and stereotypes. and then finally there's minimization, which is

05:36 - to say that, you know, racism, claims racism, aren't relevant anymore. that racism is something that happened in the past, and now, you know, basically doesn't exist really. we're all the same for in terms of distaste for whiteness. that, so there are different kinds of people that, have distaste for whiteness for different reasons. so there's this sort of, the most trivial of the reasons, I'll say is people who think that,

06:10 - it's boring, that it's plain. So, why would anyone wanna be just white? so there are people who are actually adopting, European ethnicities in the us, where their parents or grandparents had shed them and wanted to just be white. and now they're saying, no, no, no, I wanna be Irish American or Italian American. 'cause that's more interesting, than just being white. and there are actually, people who are, lots of people who are doing, getting a DNA test done who are,

06:44 - discovering, that they are, in their minds, getting these tests back that say that they're, you know, have Native American ancestry or African ancestry. And Wendy Roth and her colleagues have, have shown that this has really transformed the way that they think about, their racial identity and, their distaste for being just white, has led them to shift their thinking into not being white.

07:15 - And this is actually influencing the size of the Native American population to a degree. and then, kind of, different reason for, having a distaste for whiteness is its association with being racist. and people of course, don't like to think of themselves or be thought of by others as being racist. and one way of distancing themselves from that is to, distance themselves from the identity from whiteness in general.

07:48 - and distancing, oneself from whiteness is also distancing oneself from the privilege, that accrues to whiteness, which is distancing oneself from the responsibility that is a part of that privilege. In terms of the social class. And whiteness is fascinating. to have someone who is, has a privileged, racial status combined with a subordinate class status, really highlights, the, expectations of privilege, of privileges, of whiteness, even

08:25 - among the many people who will, deny that whiteness is afforded any privileges, all the colorblind people, all the people who say whiteness is invisible. That kind of changes when there, that, assumption about whiteness and affluence is violated. and so among poor whites, there's this, sense that there must be something wrong individually wrong with poor whites. they're defective in some way.

08:55 - and it leads to denigrations of this group. like the use for, example of the term white trash. trash is a very dehumanizing term, and it's importantly paired with the word white, that show that, it's because they've violated these expectations, of being a member of, of that race. and, you know, it's a, a really kind of striking, testament to these sort of expectations of, of what it is to be white.

09:30 - There's a way in which, space and whiteness is often kind of, related in the same way that poverty and whiteness is related. for example, with, sort of low income urban neighborhoods or trailer parks, one sees this, the sense that, you know, the, the entitlement of whiteness has kind of been violated. and why haven't these people moved up and out by now? there must be something wrong with them,

09:58 - if they're living in these communities. and there's actually not always, a connection to poverty. there's, Shirley has a study of, white southerners who, when they leave Mississippi, and go to any sort of place outside the South report being treated as if they're, they're terrible racists, because they're from the south.

10:29 - And so being from a re particular region, and associations of whiteness with that region, can also lead to, certain assumptions, about who one is and space, in terms of neighborhood and the way, it's, patrolled or defended by the people who live there, is another way in which it's connected to whiteness. so for example, people who are white groups of whites may have this, this sense, this feeling that they, own, quote their,

11:07 - neighborhood and it's their job to maintain its whiteness and to keep out, people of color, whether not just as home buyers, or renters, but also as, just people passing through. that one isn't allowed to even be a pedestrian, in the, the community if one isn't white. So patrolling the boundaries of white spaces, is also something that, that occurs. One of the classics in whiteness studies is, Peggy Macintosh's White privilege,

11:43 - unpacking the invisible knapsack. and she comes from, you know, feminist work and she, had, you know, that, men would, be more than willing to acknowledge overt acts of sexism, but would be, you know, very unwilling to acknowledge, male dominance in society, or any kind of systematic structural power. and she kind of realized, I mean, it's the same, thing for whites like me, that, we're willing in most cases to acknowledge, over acts

12:27 - of racism, but unwilling to, to see or to acknowledge, you know, structural forms of privilege. And so she kind of wrote about that, and led people to start, really thinking about, white privilege and sort of invisible whiteness in a new way. and she found, and, and later authors found that it was really difficult for white women, to move from,

13:02 - understanding their experience of, oppression as women, with sexist depression to thinking about themselves as privileged. and it's something one season, a lot of intersecting, identities that kind of, you know, cross-cutting identities where one is a privileged identity and one is, is not a privileged identity, but, there can be a lot of struggle that that goes on there. it's especially the case, when there is a kind

13:33 - of the racist image and a sexist image combined. so for example, there's, common, racist and sexist, image of women, white women as fragile and chased and in need of defending, that has been the source of, violence against especially black men, by white men. for, you know, centuries white identity is, sort of a part of whiteness for sure. it's a little different than these kind of big structures,

14:14 - and invisible sources of privilege that, we've been primarily talking about because it's, it's at the individual level, and it's sort of much more variable, than some of the big picture stuff. And, it's related to kind of categories and in, a lot of ways, and it's, in terms of the ways that, it's measured, usually in a lot of, a lot of this work is done, with through surveys, anymore it's in terms of the kind

14:46 - of closeness that one feels, towards, one's identity as a white person, and how strong, one's identity is. So how much a part of, who one is being white is, and then how much, what happens to white people in general, affects what happens to one as an individual. So how much one is called linked fate, how much one's fate is linked to others. and we find really interesting,

15:21 - in terms of the connection between, resistance to racism and white identity. So you kind of think it could go either way, right? to people who are anti-racists, do they have a strong white identity or a weak white identity, and you think, well, they have a weak white identity 'cause to, to be like really connected to being white, must make you racist. and it turns out that's not the case that, people

15:57 - who are most anti-racist, most committed to anti-racism, actually a very strong, white identity, so very important to 'em. people who are white supremacists also have, a very strong white identity. and the difference, of course is what that means to them. So the white supremacist, is very proud of being white. so that's why it's important to them. the anti-racist white being white is a big deal,

16:29 - to them, but it's, because they're so aware of being privileged that it motivates, a lot of their action. and so they think about being white a lot and it's important, and their, feel like their f is linked to the fate of other whites in the movement, and to other whites who are privileged. I anticipate that a little bit in terms of the, the identity.

16:56 - But, there's actually, Matthew Huey did this, interesting study of two organizations, a white nationalist organization, anti-racist organization, and kind of related to the white identity piece, a little different. he found that they thought about, what the white race, basically what it is, to be white, the boundaries of whiteness, in the same way. So their definitions of white are the same. It was, it's this fundamental kind of immutable essential,

17:29 - category that's not going anywhere. and has very clear boundaries, you know, who's then we know who's out. but kind of, you know, surprising that, anti-racist would, would think this way. not that surprising that white supremacists would. but then what they make of that, of course is Polar opposite. So the, anti-racist say, this is just, you know, moral abomination,

18:00 - that this exists and we have to do, you know, what we can to fight any ill effects in the world. and then the, the white supremacists say, this is our God given, right? And, we need to, you know, capitalize upon it and argue, you know, work in its favor and the like. he also found that both groups, had found that whites were, were somewhat under threat, in a way which was, also a little bit surprising in terms of the anti-racist group.

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