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Tasmania’s Museum of Old and New Art and the Intertextual Traces of English Romanticism

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Paul Gladston and Lynne Howarth-Gladston discuss material similarities as well as resonances of signified meaning and affect between MONA and sites constructed for socially elite audiences during the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries as part of English romanticism.

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 23, 2024

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This video video discusses the Museum of Old and New Art (MONA) in Hobart, Tasmania, which opened in 2011 and is notable for its unique architectural design and diverse collection. Owned by David Walsh, the museum houses works from various historical periods, blending ancient antiquities with modern and contemporary art without a traditional narrative structure. The underground galleries create a disorienting yet immersive experience for visitors.

The speakers, who have a scholarly interest in art history, draw parallels between MONA and historical "cabinets of curiosity" from the 18th and 19th centuries. They explore connections between MONA and other historical sites, emphasizing its aesthetic roots in earlier artistic movements and experiences. They note that, unlike conventional museums, MONA lacks explanatory signage, presenting a visceral experience of art juxtaposition.

The conversation also critiques Walsh's neo-Darwinian interpretation of art, arguing that while it provides a unique perspective, it overlooks the museum's cultural connections. They highlight the museum's links to British colonialism and Tasmania's gothic literary tradition, suggesting that these connections enrich rather than detract from MONA's identity.

Additionally, the speakers mention their ongoing research, which encompasses a broader context exploring links between historical art practices and contemporary culture, including the influence of China on Western art movements. Their work aims to reveal the complexity and depth of MONA's artistic significance beyond its public persona.

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Here are some key quotes extracted from the video regarding the Museum of Old and New Art (MONA) in Tasmania:

1. **On the Museum's Concept and Collection**:
- "And David's collection contains works from antiquity, so Egyptian antiquity and Greco-Roman antiquity, and kind of diverse antiquities around the world."

2. **On the Unique Museum Experience**:
- "It's a sort of bucket list destination... and so all of the galleries are effectively underground."

3. **Design and Structure**:
- "It's like a sort of Bond villain lair... it has this very modern, contemporary feel to it."

4. **Atmosphere and Visitor Experience**:
- "Unlike a lot of museums, they don't ban alcohol... it's a little bit like the Hellfire Club that way."

5. **Museum's Narrative**:
- "There's not really much explanation... it's almost like a personal space that's been turned into a museum in that very 18th-century style."

6. **Comparison with Established Museums**:
- "A modern work or a contemporary work will be put next to an ancient work in ways that you don't usually see in museums."

7. **Cultural and Historical Connections**:
- "We could see connections with displays and sites of aestheticized experience going back to the 17 hundreds and 18 hundreds."

8. **Critique of MONA's Originality**:
- "The museum deconstructs the claims that are made for it... it is an innovation in a sense, but it's not a clean break with the past."

9. **David Walsh's Perspective on Art**:
- "He sees contemporary art and modern art and art in general as an extension of kind of sexualized displays in nature."

10. **Transcultural Elements**:
- "There’s a transcultural element to this study... the relationship between the 18th and 19th century, the romantic and the gothic, and the impact of China on that."

These quotes capture the essence of the discussion regarding MONA, its collections, the innovative yet historically rooted approach of the museum, and the unique visitor experience it offers.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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But our study about the Museum of Older New Art in Hobart,

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Tasmania, which opened in 2011,

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and it was built especially to, to house the collection

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of its owner, David Walsh.

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And David's collection contains works from antiquity,

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so Egyptian antiquity and Greco-Roman antiquity,

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and kind of di diverse antiquities around the world.

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Plus works of modern postmodern and contemporary art.

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And the museum mixes all of these together in displays,

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which we'll talk about a little bit more as we go along.

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Um, but the museum is really interesting.

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I mean, pe a lot of people visit there.

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It's a sort of bucket list destination. Mm-Hmm.

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And, it's excavated into a,

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a peninsula on the river Derwin near,

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Tasmania's Capital City.

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Hobart. So ex the, the museum was especially dug into the,

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the kinda limestone bedrock of the peninsula.

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And so all of the galleries are effectively underground.

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And some of 'em are cavernous, aren't they? I mean,

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Yeah, they're huge.

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Um, and, we also have an interest in,

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terms, Arcadia, sites in the uk.

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And my work,

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and both our work really is, is, has covered that.

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Um, and I think what's interesting is that,

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it's positioning on the Peninsula is very like the Thames.

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It looks like the Thames,

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but it also looks like Tracy Island from Thunderbird.

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Yeah. It's quite strange. It has this very, modern,

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you know, very contemporary feel to it at the same time.

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It is like a sort of bond Yeah. Villain layer.

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You know, the spaces are kind of almost like that.

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And when you're driving past it, it kind

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of looks like Thunderbird's Tracy Island

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from the, from the road.

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But the other way to enter is actually

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by the, the water.

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And so special ferries have been devised

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and, you know, they've, they've been designed especially,

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and there's a posh pit where you can go

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and you can have some champagne.

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And it's, it is a little bit

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like the Hellfire Club that way.

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You know, you sort of enter this, this cavernous retreat,

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semi drunk,

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and no, no sort of, a apparent

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indications of where you are.

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So you become very disorientated

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or can become very disorientated, which is part

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of the process really of of,

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of entering into the, the space.

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It's laba it's laba insight and yeah.

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Unlike a lot of museums, they don't ban alcohol.

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So when you're in the museum itself, there are all lots

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of bars kind of, and,

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and slot machines kind of, going through as you go

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through at various points

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And outside there's music, so it's a little bit,

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but the little bit like the vox hole gardens outside,

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so there's music and drink and food Yeah.

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Going on as well. So that's what intrigued us about it,

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because it reminded us of so many spaces historically.

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I mean, we'll come onto the sort

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of more detailed connections with the 18th century, but,

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but Lynn's quite rightly name checking a lot of 18th,

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19th century references that we'll clarify in a moment.

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But it's not a museum in the contemporary or modern sense.

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There's, there's no real sort of narrative.

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You don't go in and,

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and see works that are sequential, you know, according

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to some sort of linear historical narrative

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or even a culturalist narrative.

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There's not really much explanation.

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There's, there are no signposts or captions for the work.

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It's, it's very like a early museum, really.

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It's a, it's, it's almost like a personal space

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that's been turned into a museum in that very 18th century

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style, but obviously within a modern,

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Uh, what, what's called cabinets of curiosity.

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Yeah. Private collections of things that, you know,

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thunder dramas, thunder camera Yeah.

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People had in Europe in the seven, certainly the 17th.

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Yeah. 16th, 17th Century. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

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So it's a little bit like that.

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And actually Walsh kind of admits this connection,

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but the, you can buy, you can access an app

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and Wal she comes on and kind of comments on the works,

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but it's not like, you know, take modern

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or, kind

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of national gallery in Washington, anywhere like that.

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The, the, there's no direct attempt to, educate

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or explain, but it is hugely entertaining,

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the juxtapositions of the works because a modern work

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or a contemporary work will be put next to an ancient work

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in ways that you don't usually see in museums where,

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you know, you, British Museum has all the stuff from

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antiquity and Tate Modern has all the stuff from,

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from, from the present era.

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It's not like that. It mixes everything together,

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but doesn't put them into any sort

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of explained juxtaposition.

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You really just get a kind of visceral

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or aesthetic impact from all of this.

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Now, I was just gonna add, it's received, been received

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by some and presented by the museum itself as innovative,

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new, refreshing.

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And in some ways it is, if you compare it

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to existing institutions.

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Um, but I guess our interest in the research is, is

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what Lynn mentioned, is that we could see connections with

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displays and sites of aestheticized experience going back

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to the 17 hundreds and 18 hundreds.

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And we wanted to kind of draw out those connections in,

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in, in, in our study.

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Yeah, sure. We, we, we could have,

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we could have talked about,

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or we could have written about a whole range

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of sites from the, from the 17th, through

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to the 19th century in connection with this.

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But we had to limit ourselves.

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So we, we talk about basically four sites.

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Uh, popes Grotto,

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which still exists out at Twickenham in London,

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the Hell Fire caves, which are, are north of London,

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strawberry Hill House, which is the Neogothic House,

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which is also at Twickenham, very close to Pope Grotto.

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And, importantly St.

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John Sos Museum,

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which is most like Mona in its construction.

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So just to go through those, I mean,

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Pope's Grotto was the Undercroft to a house owned

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by Alexander Pope, the famous poet.

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And it was a place for him to romanticize a kind

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of classical past.

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And it, and, and it was a kind of gloomy place,

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but it had really interesting, visual, effects.

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Like he had a mirror ball like you have in a, this guy.

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He effectively devised the mirror ball, basically.

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And, it, it, it's encrusted, a lot of the,

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jewels and pieces of glass

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that were encrusted into the site have been removed.

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But in, in initially it was like a jeweled cave.

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Uh, and he, he had an interest obviously in minerals

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and various different kinds of, shells

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and, formulations of, of, of, of geological,

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geological geological stuff.

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Yeah, yeah. Kind of rocks, et cetera.

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And so there, it wasn't just about pasting in things which

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might glitter a little bit.

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There was a, a relationship also to, to Italy and,

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and the, the hermit grottos, you know,

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and religious grottos that you find there.

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Yeah. Back to Rome Roman times. And That's

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Right. The idea grotto

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goes back to antiquity,

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and it's a kind of a, a site of aestheticized display

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or a place to kind of meet with friends.

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Hellfire caves was that it's a huge set of caves,

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which were excavated to get material

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to build a road back in the 18th century.

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And then subsequently, they were used for kind

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of ritualized meetings, accounts

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of which are probably exaggerated,

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but, you know, it was a kind of private male club

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for various sort of licensure activities.

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And it was political as well. Oh.

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So, you know, at the time, obviously the wigs

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and the Tories were, you know, kind

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of in contention with one another.

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So therefore, these follies

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and this, this is not just at the hell fire clubs, it's in,

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a lot of stately homes where you see different kinds

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of follies within the landscape.

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They were all used for different reasons,

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and some of them were political so that certain people

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with a particular particular politics would meet up

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and they would talk about where they were going forward.

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And the gardens were designed

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and devised in that political way so that,

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viewers could actually, perceive, you know, the,

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the politics of the person who owned the house,

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Kind of aestheticized politics.

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Yeah. Strawberry Hill House. I mean, it's still there.

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You can go and visit it. It's not exactly the first

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Neogothic house in England,

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but it's, it's the, probably the most

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important early example.

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And that was the site for, for similar kinds

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of aestheticized experience in this case, very much the sort

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of gothic, scary horror movie type experience

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that we all know from movies and other,

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and kind of in, in more contemporary times.

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But really, strawberry Hill House was the

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progenitor of all of that.

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Mm-Hmm. It was deliberately designed to confuse, to delight,

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to horrify in ways that coincided with,

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18th century ideas of the sublime.

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And a word was coined in relation to it, which was gloom,

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which is a conjunction of gloominess.

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And, well, it's a, it's a way of emphasizing the work,

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the idea of an aestheticized experienced, attached

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to gloom, if you like.

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So John Stones Museum is more like a museum

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in a conventional sense.

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Again, you can still go

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and see that it's free to the public in,

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it's just off Lincolns in fields in London,

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and it contains a collection, which in a way is similar

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to Walsh's, contains works of antiquity.

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And also there are exhibitions

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and have been since the museum was opened,

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in the 19th century.

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Uh, it all, it's also a place for shows of contemporary art.

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There are examples of works

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that were contemporary at the time.

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The museum, was opened like Turner,

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but actually they still have exhibitions of,

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of contemporary works.

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So all of these have kind of physical connections to Mona.

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This isn't a sort of conceptual

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connection that we're making.

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These are physical connections

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Also. Um,

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they have a, a winter program called Dark MoFA,

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that's set up by Mona.

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And it's very gothic

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and Tasmania itself in,

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in the Hobart area is actually quite gothic.

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Um, so, you know, you do get these, sort of

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gl sensations

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and feelings in, in that remote area of, of Australia.

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It's not like the rest of Australia.

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It's not, sort of deserts

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and Bondi beach surfing.

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It's not that kind of place. It's weather's different.

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Everything about it's different.

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And there's a, there's something,

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a recognized literary genre in Tasmania called

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Tasmanian Gothic.

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Mm-Hmm. So,

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although David Walsh doesn't talk about these connections

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that openly, they are pretty obvious

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and they do actually appear in a lot

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of the journalistic writing about Mona.

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Uh, we also, spoke to people

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that worked at Mona,

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and one of them actually said

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that there was a direct connection, not only

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between Vander Kammer sort cabinets of curiosity,

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which Walsh has talked about,

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but also, the Sir John, so museum.

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So there's a conscious connection to these things.

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But of course, this gets kind of downplayed

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because of the claims of originality.

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Well, not, not quite as simple as that.

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It, to, to say that would be to, I think

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to be too overly negative about Mona.

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It's a fantastic place to go.

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And it is very different from established museums, and

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therefore is very entertaining

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and very accessible to a kind of wider public.

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Also, I think it'd be wrong to say

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that it doesn't innovate completely.

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You know, I mean, I think there's a,

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there are innovations about it.

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It, it is something different.

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But what we wanted to point out was that

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whatever innovations the current museum has in the

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contemporary context are related to things

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that have happened in the past.

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And that the traces of what happened in the past are, are,

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are the basis, if you like,

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or the context within which Mona has taken place.

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I mean, I think that it enriches it actually rather

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than detracts.

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Yeah. I, I think that's part our point really.

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We didn't want to simply say,

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Mona's bad museum don't go there.

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It's not, it's, it's not what it claims to be.

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That's not what we're saying.

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What we are saying is

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that there's another narrative about the museum,

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which doesn't conform

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to the museum's own narrative about itself.

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And that's more, more enriching.

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It's important to say at this point that that,

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that David Walsh has his own ideas about art.

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He doesn't see art in a kind of standard cultural sense.

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He, he sees contemporary art and modern art

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and art in general as an extension of kind

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of sexualized displays in nature.

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So he takes this neo Darwinian view of art

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as having its basis, its absolute basis

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in sexualized signaling, which then evolves into

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culturally into art later on as human beings develop.

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Now that's fine. It's very difficult to prove that.

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But it's an interesting point of view.

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Uh, what we wanted to say was that his, in forming that view

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of Mona Walsh's view of Mona, he shoes

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or denies culturalist readings,

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or at least he does in large part.

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And we wanted to draw attention to the,

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what we think is the fact

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or the facticity that the museum performs those cultural

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connections in itself.

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It doesn't have to say it does, it just does it,

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it embodies its connections with much earlier culture

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and in particular English romantic culture

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and its connections to antiquity

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And also Tasmania's connections to that.

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You know, it's kind of part and parcel of the place itself

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and how it's influenced the

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development of the museum as well. Arguably.

14:57.195 --> 14:58.525
Yeah. Hobart's, yeah.

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Site of Kind of British colonialism

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and, you know, has gothic overtones that are attached to

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that because it, it's developed as a space of

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that kind at the end of the 18th

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and beginning of the 19th century.

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And there's a lot of buildings of that are still intact

15:17.105 --> 15:19.445
in Hobart and around Tasmania from that time.

15:19.925 --> 15:22.085
I mean, obviously you're reading an academic article

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and the, the, it's, it's, it can sound like gobbly good,

15:25.365 --> 15:27.045
but it's just specialist language.

15:27.475 --> 15:28.725
It's actually quite precise.

15:28.825 --> 15:31.045
And I think just to go back on what we've just said,

15:31.705 --> 15:33.365
by identifying these traces,

15:33.905 --> 15:38.205
one can witness the museum itself beyond the, in intentions

15:38.205 --> 15:42.925
of David Welsh or anybody else, to, to to show itself,

15:42.985 --> 15:47.225
to be connected to this 18th

15:47.285 --> 15:48.705
and 19th century past.

15:48.805 --> 15:52.145
And by being clearly connected to that in a kind of physical

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and aestheticized way,

15:54.445 --> 15:57.265
the museum deconstructs the claims that are made for it.

15:57.965 --> 15:59.385
It deconstructs the idea

15:59.385 --> 16:01.905
that it's simply innovative or brand new.

16:01.935 --> 16:04.745
It's not, it, it is an innovation in a sense,

16:04.845 --> 16:07.505
but it's not a clean break with the past.

16:07.775 --> 16:09.265
It's still connected to the past.

16:10.245 --> 16:13.025
And also I think it brings into questions, question,

16:13.125 --> 16:17.825
the soul interpretation that David has put on art

16:18.205 --> 16:21.545
and his showing of art in the museum as being a sort

16:21.545 --> 16:22.825
of neo Darwinian,

16:22.825 --> 16:26.265
or taking a neo Darwinian view of the art

16:26.605 --> 16:29.665
as simply connected to sexualized forms

16:29.685 --> 16:30.825
of display in nature.

16:31.375 --> 16:34.185
They may, well, that may well be a, a reasonable thesis.

16:34.405 --> 16:37.945
You can't really prove it very, very easily or at all.

16:38.485 --> 16:40.425
But we wanted to just complicate that

16:40.425 --> 16:43.505
as the sole interpretation of what the museum is.

16:44.285 --> 16:46.745
It goes beyond, the denial

16:46.775 --> 16:49.065
that the museum is somehow connected to

16:50.345 --> 16:51.425
culturalist interpretation

16:51.425 --> 16:54.105
because it embodies culturalist interpretation.

16:54.385 --> 16:56.385
I think. I think the Darwin connection is quite

16:56.825 --> 17:00.785
interesting, effectively by,

17:02.405 --> 17:03.865
you know, citing Darwin.

17:04.085 --> 17:08.785
Um, he's really, connecting himself to,

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cabinets of curiosity.

17:11.775 --> 17:14.625
It's almost as if he's, he's bringing that forward in

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and of its self, you know, through the idea.

17:16.765 --> 17:21.185
So it was, it was kind of, visible to me.

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'cause I've written about Darwin

17:23.005 --> 17:26.345
and that was one of the things

17:26.345 --> 17:29.065
that attracted me about it, about that sort of relationship

17:29.285 --> 17:31.825
of the, the toing

17:31.825 --> 17:35.345
and froing of ideas from 19th century formulations

17:35.345 --> 17:36.505
of early museums

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and scientific, rather than natural philosophical ideas

17:41.245 --> 17:42.825
around, objects

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and around, site specific ways of,

17:46.445 --> 17:47.665
of showing and display.

17:48.535 --> 17:50.215
It's a, it's a kind of reprising

17:51.005 --> 17:54.905
of those connections rather than a kind of just a breaking

17:55.015 --> 17:57.665
with established contemporary convention.

17:58.245 --> 18:01.025
And because it's a, it attached to the past, those,

18:01.045 --> 18:03.345
it has those trace relationships with the past.

18:03.375 --> 18:06.505
Yeah. It's just more complex than it's been presented.

18:06.525 --> 18:09.905
And we, we kind of think it's a really complex, interesting

18:10.515 --> 18:12.025
space that,

18:12.085 --> 18:14.665
and to use another technical term, we,

18:14.785 --> 18:15.985
I don't think we used it in the essay,

18:15.985 --> 18:19.385
but it's kind of in, it's part of a rhizome, you know, kind

18:19.385 --> 18:23.185
of spreading out of roots, which is very complex

18:23.565 --> 18:27.305
and wide ranging and, without clear limits.

18:28.205 --> 18:30.345
And I think, you know, the attempt

18:30.345 --> 18:33.705
to put clear limits on the museum by saying it's new

18:34.485 --> 18:38.185
or it's just about, you know, sexualized display.

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They're, they're part of its interpretation,

18:40.165 --> 18:41.345
but it, it can, it's open

18:41.345 --> 18:43.905
to much more complex interpretation than that.

18:44.525 --> 18:46.105
And it's not simply notional.

18:46.235 --> 18:48.025
We're not saying it's just in our heads.

18:48.685 --> 18:51.945
We can show it, we can show its physical connections

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to these ideas and feelings.

18:53.655 --> 18:56.825
Yeah. And also through the, the space itself, you know,

18:56.825 --> 18:58.225
through those connections to Darwin

18:58.805 --> 19:00.825
and Cabinets of Curiosity, it's kind of,

19:01.485 --> 19:02.705
you know, explaining itself.

19:03.185 --> 19:05.825
I mean, I'm, I think little elaborate on this a bit more,

19:06.365 --> 19:10.345
but it, it, it's actually seems like a big study.

19:10.665 --> 19:14.345
'cause it's a 12 page article, which is quite large for a,

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for an academic article

19:17.945 --> 19:21.325
or 12,000 words rather, which is quite large for a,

19:21.485 --> 19:22.565
a, a journal article.

19:23.865 --> 19:25.405
But it is part of, it's a fragment

19:25.465 --> 19:27.325
of something we're looking at more generally.

19:27.525 --> 19:30.165
I mean, usually we write about, well together,

19:30.225 --> 19:31.605
we usually write about China

19:31.605 --> 19:35.585
because we are very interested in Chinese contemporary art

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and lived in China for quite a while,

19:38.565 --> 19:41.825
varied within this article, all sorts of other connections

19:41.825 --> 19:46.265
with China, because China was a significant place in terms

19:46.285 --> 19:48.745
of its thinking and practice in 18th century

19:49.845 --> 19:51.305
and 19th century Europe.

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And so we didn't mention it

19:53.665 --> 19:55.865
because it would've made the article way too long.

19:55.865 --> 19:58.545
Mm-Hmm. But it's part of a much wider study that,

19:58.615 --> 20:02.825
that we've been engaged in, which makes connections not only

20:02.825 --> 20:07.165
between the romantic past in Europe and, and the present,

20:07.865 --> 20:11.525
but also China, China's role in both of those things.

20:12.465 --> 20:14.485
But one thing I'd like to say, just

20:14.485 --> 20:17.845
before we kind of wrap up, is that,

20:18.995 --> 20:21.885
David's ideas about this kind of sexualized

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or a sexualized interpretation of art as some sort of

20:27.385 --> 20:29.235
display sexualized display,

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and that that art has evolved out of nature in that way.

20:33.435 --> 20:34.435
Actually, there's another connection

20:34.435 --> 20:36.155
with the 18th and 19th century.

20:36.665 --> 20:39.515
There's a guy called Richard Payne Knight, a philosopher

20:39.515 --> 20:42.795
and naturalist who put forward very similar ideas

20:44.205 --> 20:45.705
in the early 19th century.

20:46.085 --> 20:50.645
Um, he, he had the idea of a sort of pic spirituality

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that, that would replace Christianity.

20:53.625 --> 20:55.565
His ideas are very close to Walsh's.

20:55.565 --> 20:59.005
And it just goes to show all of these things are in a state

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of eternal return, if you like.

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They constantly come back, not repeated exactly

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as they were, but in new thoughts.

21:06.445 --> 21:08.085
Yeah. And that's trace relationships.

21:08.225 --> 21:11.805
Mm-Hmm. Um, I,

21:12.005 --> 21:13.285
I write about gardens

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and, botanical illustration and things.

21:15.405 --> 21:17.285
I've, I've got a book coming out very shortly

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about a botanical illustrator.

21:19.385 --> 21:23.365
And, so for me,

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my interest going forward will also be come, you know,

21:28.245 --> 21:30.455
with it will be within that context as well.

21:30.955 --> 21:34.415
And sort of the, the sort of further omic sort of,

21:37.245 --> 21:40.495
sort of formulations that we can sort of bring together and,

21:40.715 --> 21:43.855
and build into a, a book really of a, of our own,

21:44.165 --> 21:45.375
It's part of a wider study

21:45.435 --> 21:46.975
that's not only trans historical.

21:47.195 --> 21:49.855
So the, the bit that you are seeing in this article is the

21:49.855 --> 21:52.975
trans historical bit 18th, 19th century to the present,

21:54.795 --> 21:57.335
but also as a, as I say, we work on China a lot.

21:58.155 --> 21:59.735
So there's a transcultural,

22:02.035 --> 22:04.125
there's a transcultural element to this study,

22:04.845 --> 22:06.555
which is not evident in the article,

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but which is part of our wider writings.

22:08.795 --> 22:11.715
And it's actually, where this will end up,

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this will end up being part of a book about the relationship

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between the 18th and 19th century, the romantic

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and the gothic, and the impact of China on that,

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and contemporary art and visual culture.

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So that's where this is, this is going mm-Hmm.

00:00 - But our study about the Museum of Older New Art in Hobart, Tasmania, which opened in 2011, and it was built especially to, to house the collection of its owner, David Walsh. And David's collection contains works from antiquity, so Egyptian antiquity and Greco-Roman antiquity,

00:22 - and kind of di diverse antiquities around the world. Plus works of modern postmodern and contemporary art. And the museum mixes all of these together in displays, which we'll talk about a little bit more as we go along. but the museum is really interesting. I mean, pe a lot of people visit there. It's a sort of bucket list destination. Mm-Hmm. And, it's excavated into a, a peninsula on the river Derwin near, Tasmania's Capital City.

00:58 - Hobart. So ex the, the museum was especially dug into the, the kinda limestone bedrock of the peninsula. And so all of the galleries are effectively underground. And some of 'em are cavernous, aren't they? I mean, Yeah, they're huge. and, we also have an interest in, terms, Arcadia, sites in the uk. And my work, and both our work really is, is, has covered that. and I think what's interesting is that,

01:32 - it's positioning on the Peninsula is very like the Thames. It looks like the Thames, but it also looks like Tracy Island from Thunderbird. Yeah. It's quite strange. It has this very, modern, you know, very contemporary feel to it at the same time. It is like a sort of bond Yeah. Villain layer. You know, the spaces are kind of almost like that. And when you're driving past it, it kind of looks like Thunderbird's Tracy Island from the, from the road.

02:02 - But the other way to enter is actually by the, the water. And so special ferries have been devised and, you know, they've, they've been designed especially, and there's a posh pit where you can go and you can have some champagne. And it's, it is a little bit like the Hellfire Club that way. You know, you sort of enter this, this cavernous retreat, semi drunk,

02:28 - and no, no sort of, a apparent indications of where you are. So you become very disorientated or can become very disorientated, which is part of the process really of of, of entering into the, the space. It's laba it's laba insight and yeah. Unlike a lot of museums, they don't ban alcohol. So when you're in the museum itself, there are all lots of bars kind of, and,

02:56 - and slot machines kind of, going through as you go through at various points And outside there's music, so it's a little bit, but the little bit like the vox hole gardens outside, so there's music and drink and food Yeah. Going on as well. So that's what intrigued us about it, because it reminded us of so many spaces historically. I mean, we'll come onto the sort of more detailed connections with the 18th century, but, but Lynn's quite rightly name checking a lot of 18th,

03:25 - 19th century references that we'll clarify in a moment. But it's not a museum in the contemporary or modern sense. There's, there's no real sort of narrative. You don't go in and, and see works that are sequential, you know, according to some sort of linear historical narrative or even a culturalist narrative. There's not really much explanation. There's, there are no signposts or captions for the work. It's, it's very like a early museum, really.

03:53 - It's a, it's, it's almost like a personal space that's been turned into a museum in that very 18th century style, but obviously within a modern, what, what's called cabinets of curiosity. Yeah. Private collections of things that, you know, thunder dramas, thunder camera Yeah. People had in Europe in the seven, certainly the 17th. Yeah. 16th, 17th Century. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So it's a little bit like that. And actually Walsh kind of admits this connection,

04:20 - but the, you can buy, you can access an app and Wal she comes on and kind of comments on the works, but it's not like, you know, take modern or, kind of national gallery in Washington, anywhere like that. The, the, there's no direct attempt to, educate or explain, but it is hugely entertaining, the juxtapositions of the works because a modern work or a contemporary work will be put next to an ancient work in ways that you don't usually see in museums where,

04:54 - you know, you, British Museum has all the stuff from antiquity and Tate Modern has all the stuff from, from, from the present era. It's not like that. It mixes everything together, but doesn't put them into any sort of explained juxtaposition. You really just get a kind of visceral or aesthetic impact from all of this. Now, I was just gonna add, it's received, been received by some and presented by the museum itself as innovative,

05:23 - new, refreshing. And in some ways it is, if you compare it to existing institutions. but I guess our interest in the research is, is what Lynn mentioned, is that we could see connections with displays and sites of aestheticized experience going back to the 17 hundreds and 18 hundreds. And we wanted to kind of draw out those connections in, in, in, in our study. Yeah, sure. We, we, we could have,

05:53 - we could have talked about, or we could have written about a whole range of sites from the, from the 17th, through to the 19th century in connection with this. But we had to limit ourselves. So we, we talk about basically four sites. popes Grotto, which still exists out at Twickenham in London, the Hell Fire caves, which are, are north of London, strawberry Hill House, which is the Neogothic House,

06:22 - which is also at Twickenham, very close to Pope Grotto. And, importantly St. John Sos Museum, which is most like Mona in its construction. So just to go through those, I mean, Pope's Grotto was the Undercroft to a house owned by Alexander Pope, the famous poet. And it was a place for him to romanticize a kind of classical past. And it, and, and it was a kind of gloomy place,

06:50 - but it had really interesting, visual, effects. Like he had a mirror ball like you have in a, this guy. He effectively devised the mirror ball, basically. And, it, it, it's encrusted, a lot of the, jewels and pieces of glass that were encrusted into the site have been removed. But in, in initially it was like a jeweled cave. and he, he had an interest obviously in minerals and various different kinds of, shells and, formulations of, of, of, of geological,

07:27 - geological geological stuff. Yeah, yeah. Kind of rocks, et cetera. And so there, it wasn't just about pasting in things which might glitter a little bit. There was a, a relationship also to, to Italy and, and the, the hermit grottos, you know, and religious grottos that you find there. Yeah. Back to Rome Roman times. And That's Right. The idea grotto goes back to antiquity,

07:49 - and it's a kind of a, a site of aestheticized display or a place to kind of meet with friends. Hellfire caves was that it's a huge set of caves, which were excavated to get material to build a road back in the 18th century. And then subsequently, they were used for kind of ritualized meetings, accounts of which are probably exaggerated, but, you know, it was a kind of private male club for various sort of licensure activities.

08:19 - And it was political as well. . So, you know, at the time, obviously the wigs and the Tories were, you know, kind of in contention with one another. So therefore, these follies and this, this is not just at the hell fire clubs, it's in, a lot of stately homes where you see different kinds of follies within the landscape. They were all used for different reasons, and some of them were political so that certain people

08:43 - with a particular particular politics would meet up and they would talk about where they were going forward. And the gardens were designed and devised in that political way so that, viewers could actually, perceive, you know, the, the politics of the person who owned the house, Kind of aestheticized politics. Yeah. Strawberry Hill House. I mean, it's still there. You can go and visit it. It's not exactly the first Neogothic house in England,

09:08 - but it's, it's the, probably the most important early example. And that was the site for, for similar kinds of aestheticized experience in this case, very much the sort of gothic, scary horror movie type experience that we all know from movies and other, and kind of in, in more contemporary times. But really, strawberry Hill House was the progenitor of all of that. Mm-Hmm. It was deliberately designed to confuse, to delight,

09:36 - to horrify in ways that coincided with, 18th century ideas of the sublime. And a word was coined in relation to it, which was gloom, which is a conjunction of gloominess. And, well, it's a, it's a way of emphasizing the work, the idea of an aestheticized experienced, attached to gloom, if you like. So John Stones Museum is more like a museum in a conventional sense. Again, you can still go

10:06 - and see that it's free to the public in, it's just off Lincolns in fields in London, and it contains a collection, which in a way is similar to Walsh's, contains works of antiquity. And also there are exhibitions and have been since the museum was opened, in the 19th century. it all, it's also a place for shows of contemporary art. There are examples of works that were contemporary at the time.

10:31 - The museum, was opened like Turner, but actually they still have exhibitions of, of contemporary works. So all of these have kind of physical connections to Mona. This isn't a sort of conceptual connection that we're making. These are physical connections Also. they have a, a winter program called Dark MoFA, that's set up by Mona.

10:56 - And it's very gothic and Tasmania itself in, in the Hobart area is actually quite gothic. so, you know, you do get these, sort of gl sensations and feelings in, in that remote area of, of Australia. It's not like the rest of Australia. It's not, sort of deserts and Bondi beach surfing. It's not that kind of place. It's weather's different.

11:23 - Everything about it's different. And there's a, there's something, a recognized literary genre in Tasmania called Tasmanian Gothic. Mm-Hmm. So, although David Walsh doesn't talk about these connections that openly, they are pretty obvious and they do actually appear in a lot of the journalistic writing about Mona. we also, spoke to people

11:49 - that worked at Mona, and one of them actually said that there was a direct connection, not only between Vander Kammer sort cabinets of curiosity, which Walsh has talked about, but also, the Sir John, so museum. So there's a conscious connection to these things. But of course, this gets kind of downplayed because of the claims of originality. Well, not, not quite as simple as that.

12:14 - It, to, to say that would be to, I think to be too overly negative about Mona. It's a fantastic place to go. And it is very different from established museums, and therefore is very entertaining and very accessible to a kind of wider public. Also, I think it'd be wrong to say that it doesn't innovate completely. You know, I mean, I think there's a, there are innovations about it.

12:43 - It, it is something different. But what we wanted to point out was that whatever innovations the current museum has in the contemporary context are related to things that have happened in the past. And that the traces of what happened in the past are, are, are the basis, if you like, or the context within which Mona has taken place. I mean, I think that it enriches it actually rather than detracts.

13:08 - Yeah. I, I think that's part our point really. We didn't want to simply say, Mona's bad museum don't go there. It's not, it's, it's not what it claims to be. That's not what we're saying. What we are saying is that there's another narrative about the museum, which doesn't conform to the museum's own narrative about itself. And that's more, more enriching.

13:28 - It's important to say at this point that that, that David Walsh has his own ideas about art. He doesn't see art in a kind of standard cultural sense. He, he sees contemporary art and modern art and art in general as an extension of kind of sexualized displays in nature. So he takes this neo Darwinian view of art as having its basis, its absolute basis in sexualized signaling, which then evolves into culturally into art later on as human beings develop.

14:05 - Now that's fine. It's very difficult to prove that. But it's an interesting point of view. what we wanted to say was that his, in forming that view of Mona Walsh's view of Mona, he shoes or denies culturalist readings, or at least he does in large part. And we wanted to draw attention to the, what we think is the fact or the facticity that the museum performs those cultural connections in itself.

14:35 - It doesn't have to say it does, it just does it, it embodies its connections with much earlier culture and in particular English romantic culture and its connections to antiquity And also Tasmania's connections to that. You know, it's kind of part and parcel of the place itself and how it's influenced the development of the museum as well. Arguably. Yeah. Hobart's, yeah. Site of Kind of British colonialism

15:02 - and, you know, has gothic overtones that are attached to that because it, it's developed as a space of that kind at the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th century. And there's a lot of buildings of that are still intact in Hobart and around Tasmania from that time. I mean, obviously you're reading an academic article and the, the, it's, it's, it can sound like gobbly good, but it's just specialist language. It's actually quite precise.

15:28 - And I think just to go back on what we've just said, by identifying these traces, one can witness the museum itself beyond the, in intentions of David Welsh or anybody else, to, to to show itself, to be connected to this 18th and 19th century past. And by being clearly connected to that in a kind of physical and aestheticized way, the museum deconstructs the claims that are made for it. It deconstructs the idea

15:59 - that it's simply innovative or brand new. It's not, it, it is an innovation in a sense, but it's not a clean break with the past. It's still connected to the past. And also I think it brings into questions, question, the soul interpretation that David has put on art and his showing of art in the museum as being a sort of neo Darwinian, or taking a neo Darwinian view of the art as simply connected to sexualized forms

16:29 - of display in nature. They may, well, that may well be a, a reasonable thesis. You can't really prove it very, very easily or at all. But we wanted to just complicate that as the sole interpretation of what the museum is. It goes beyond, the denial that the museum is somehow connected to culturalist interpretation because it embodies culturalist interpretation. I think. I think the Darwin connection is quite

16:56 - interesting, effectively by, you know, citing Darwin. he's really, connecting himself to, cabinets of curiosity. It's almost as if he's, he's bringing that forward in and of its self, you know, through the idea. So it was, it was kind of, visible to me. 'cause I've written about Darwin and that was one of the things that attracted me about it, about that sort of relationship

17:29 - of the, the toing and froing of ideas from 19th century formulations of early museums and scientific, rather than natural philosophical ideas around, objects and around, site specific ways of, of showing and display. It's a, it's a kind of reprising of those connections rather than a kind of just a breaking with established contemporary convention.

17:58 - And because it's a, it attached to the past, those, it has those trace relationships with the past. Yeah. It's just more complex than it's been presented. And we, we kind of think it's a really complex, interesting space that, and to use another technical term, we, I don't think we used it in the essay, but it's kind of in, it's part of a rhizome, you know, kind of spreading out of roots, which is very complex and wide ranging and, without clear limits.

18:28 - And I think, you know, the attempt to put clear limits on the museum by saying it's new or it's just about, you know, sexualized display. They're, they're part of its interpretation, but it, it can, it's open to much more complex interpretation than that. And it's not simply notional. We're not saying it's just in our heads. We can show it, we can show its physical connections to these ideas and feelings.

18:53 - Yeah. And also through the, the space itself, you know, through those connections to Darwin and Cabinets of Curiosity, it's kind of, you know, explaining itself. I mean, I'm, I think little elaborate on this a bit more, but it, it, it's actually seems like a big study. 'cause it's a 12 page article, which is quite large for a, for an academic article or 12,000 words rather, which is quite large for a, a, a journal article.

19:23 - But it is part of, it's a fragment of something we're looking at more generally. I mean, usually we write about, well together, we usually write about China because we are very interested in Chinese contemporary art and lived in China for quite a while, varied within this article, all sorts of other connections with China, because China was a significant place in terms of its thinking and practice in 18th century and 19th century Europe.

19:52 - And so we didn't mention it because it would've made the article way too long. Mm-Hmm. But it's part of a much wider study that, that we've been engaged in, which makes connections not only between the romantic past in Europe and, and the present, but also China, China's role in both of those things. But one thing I'd like to say, just before we kind of wrap up, is that, David's ideas about this kind of sexualized or a sexualized interpretation of art as some sort of

20:27 - display sexualized display, and that that art has evolved out of nature in that way. Actually, there's another connection with the 18th and 19th century. There's a guy called Richard Payne Knight, a philosopher and naturalist who put forward very similar ideas in the early 19th century. he, he had the idea of a sort of pic spirituality that, that would replace Christianity. His ideas are very close to Walsh's.

20:55 - And it just goes to show all of these things are in a state of eternal return, if you like. They constantly come back, not repeated exactly as they were, but in new thoughts. Yeah. And that's trace relationships. Mm-Hmm. I, I write about gardens and, botanical illustration and things. I've, I've got a book coming out very shortly about a botanical illustrator.

21:19 - And, so for me, my interest going forward will also be come, you know, with it will be within that context as well. And sort of the, the sort of further omic sort of, sort of formulations that we can sort of bring together and, and build into a, a book really of a, of our own, It's part of a wider study that's not only trans historical. So the, the bit that you are seeing in this article is the trans historical bit 18th, 19th century to the present,

21:54 - but also as a, as I say, we work on China a lot. So there's a transcultural, there's a transcultural element to this study, which is not evident in the article, but which is part of our wider writings. And it's actually, where this will end up, this will end up being part of a book about the relationship between the 18th and 19th century, the romantic and the gothic, and the impact of China on that, and contemporary art and visual culture.

22:25 - So that's where this is, this is going mm-Hmm.

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