Popular in Sociology

Culture and Society

The City as a Growth Machine: Toward a Political Economy of Place

New York University Harvey Moltoch

Culture and Society

Carceral Entrapments: Views from the Prison/Street Interface in India

Indian Institute of Technology Delhi Mahuya Bandyopadhya

Culture and Society

Pre-problem families: predictive analytics and the future as the present

University of Southampton Rosalind Edwards

Ethnicity and Racism

Were Muslim Barbarians Really Knocking On the Gates of Ontario?

University of Ottawa Natasha Bakht

Culture and Society

Poor People’s Survival Strategies

The University of Texas at Austin Javier Auyero

Ethnicity and Racism

Sociology of Whiteness

Arizona State University Monica McDermott

Ethnicity and Racism

Narratives of Harm and the case for detention abolition

Queen's University Sharry Aiken

The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights

View more insights in Books - Social Sciences - Sociology - Gender and Feminism

View more figures from Luiss Guido Carli

View the page of Kristina Stoeckl

View the page of Phillip M. Ayoub

Read the Book

Phillip M. Ayoub and Kristina Stoeckl discuss the global movement to curtail LGBTI rights—and how the LGBTI movement responds to it.

Image courtesy of interviewee. February 28, 2024

Generating Workspace

Export as PDF

This video video discusses the intersection of LGBT rights activism and the opposition to these rights, focusing on transnational movements and the role of various actors, including political, religious, and cultural groups. The speakers reflect on their research that highlights the fluidity of gender and sexuality concepts, which are often manipulated by opposing groups to create fear and rally support against LGBT rights.

They emphasize the rise of conservative and traditional values that aim to promote what they define as the "natural family," a concept reflecting a heterosexual couple with biological children. This video video traditionalist perspective is often framed against human rights, suggesting that individual rights should be tied to cultural and historical norms.

The research included fieldwork, interviews, and participation in relevant events across various countries, enabling an examination of both conservative and progressive movements regarding LGBT rights. The authors are political sociologists interested in the dynamics of social movements and the impact of moral conservatism.

They argue that the opposition to LGBT rights is increasingly being mobilized within transnational platforms, discussing legislation, public policy, and the strategic framing used to undermine rights, such as anti-LGBT propaganda laws. The importance of local civil societies and their unique responses to these challenges is highlighted, suggesting that effective activism must be context-sensitive and take local dynamics into account.

This video video concludes by underscoring the precariousness of LGBT rights and the need for solidarity among various social justice movements, including women's rights and racial justice. It also suggests that globalization has provided both opportunities and challenges for movements, as conservative groups have similarly leveraged transnational resources to advance their agendas. The authors stress the need for nuanced understandings of these dynamics to effectively support and advocate for vulnerable communities.

Language:

Export as PDF

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.000 --> 00:01.645
Christina I met in 2014.

00:01.945 --> 00:04.405
Um, we were both working on separate projects,

00:04.545 --> 00:07.045
and I was wrapping up a project on

00:07.065 --> 00:11.165
how LGBT movements had used transnational tools,

00:11.465 --> 00:14.125
to advocate, you know, around their riots.

00:14.125 --> 00:15.645
And had led to the, diffusion

00:15.645 --> 00:18.165
around many issues in many states, like marriage equality,

00:18.745 --> 00:19.965
quite successfully.

00:20.225 --> 00:22.565
And as Christina and I were talking about our respective

00:22.565 --> 00:26.205
projects, we were noticing how interestingly, the opposition

00:26.205 --> 00:28.885
to LGBT rights, which of course has existed always,

00:29.145 --> 00:31.845
was increasingly being used,

00:32.035 --> 00:33.805
also in these same transnational forum.

00:33.905 --> 00:36.605
So we saw a lot of, you know,

00:36.715 --> 00:39.845
transnational tools in terms of international

00:40.475 --> 00:43.445
NGOs working across borders, certain states

00:43.475 --> 00:46.165
that were advocating for traditional values, politics,

00:46.165 --> 00:47.445
working with these types of actors,

00:47.545 --> 00:50.325
and of course, certain international organizations like the

00:50.485 --> 00:51.925
Catholic Church or the, or Orthodox Church

00:51.925 --> 00:55.965
that were working, also to actively, you know,

00:55.995 --> 00:59.365
promote what they saw as traditional values, what they saw

00:59.365 --> 01:02.485
as their opposition to so-called, gender ideology,

01:02.785 --> 01:05.645
and that really targeted and centered LGBT people.

01:05.985 --> 01:08.485
Uh, part of the, you know, the reason that we,

01:08.595 --> 01:12.085
that Christina Char in the book why, this target was

01:12.105 --> 01:14.845
so effectual is that gender and sexuality,

01:14.845 --> 01:16.605
because of their fluidity, you know,

01:16.605 --> 01:20.725
they're quite fluid concepts, can be quite easily,

01:20.755 --> 01:25.725
twisted by, by opposing groups, to present them

01:25.785 --> 01:29.165
as a threat, you know, to create, to stoke some fears

01:29.185 --> 01:32.805
and present them as a threat to, tradition to kind

01:32.805 --> 01:34.765
of imagine past of the way things work.

01:35.185 --> 01:37.485
And so, especially when, you know, if you think

01:37.485 --> 01:39.285
of nationalism or,

01:39.305 --> 01:41.645
or strong attachment to religious values, gender

01:41.745 --> 01:44.365
and sexual, movements around gender and sexuality

01:44.365 --> 01:46.925
and gender identity can feel destabilizing.

01:46.945 --> 01:50.405
And this has been, you know, has for many, you know,

01:50.405 --> 01:52.965
autocratic leaders or liberal leaders,

01:53.185 --> 01:54.685
has been an effective

01:54.685 --> 01:58.485
and quite easy way to galvanize, a constituency,

01:58.865 --> 01:59.885
in opposition.

01:59.885 --> 02:02.525
Philipp and I are both political sociologists

02:02.945 --> 02:06.965
and, we've worked on social groups, social movements,

02:07.585 --> 02:12.525
and, we also, work mostly qualitatively

02:12.585 --> 02:13.725
and ethnographically.

02:14.465 --> 02:18.805
So the, the bulk of the research, for this project was,

02:19.145 --> 02:23.725
field work involving interviews with,

02:23.915 --> 02:26.965
political and religious actors and social movement actors,

02:27.625 --> 02:30.165
and also participation in events

02:30.545 --> 02:33.325
and observation of, of meetings.

02:34.105 --> 02:36.685
Now, I think what is special about the book is

02:36.685 --> 02:40.125
that we actually did research on,

02:41.075 --> 02:43.565
politicized moral conservative groups.

02:44.065 --> 02:47.725
So religious actors, conservative actors,

02:48.545 --> 02:50.845
people we, we locate on the political right.

02:51.545 --> 02:55.845
Um, but we also did research on progressive groups and,

02:55.985 --> 02:59.925
and NGOs in, in the L-G-B-T-T rights spectrum.

03:00.705 --> 03:02.965
Now, I am a sociologist of religion,

03:03.425 --> 03:05.805
and I came to this topic really from the study

03:05.825 --> 03:06.885
of religious actors.

03:07.665 --> 03:12.525
And, so for me, it was interesting to, to see that,

03:12.525 --> 03:15.885
especially in the context of Orthodox Christianity

03:16.665 --> 03:21.365
and of Russian Orthodoxy, the topic,

03:21.585 --> 03:24.365
to oppose LGBT rights,

03:25.945 --> 03:29.445
was in a way growing as, as I was observing the field.

03:30.225 --> 03:31.805
And, and so this is also what, what,

03:31.805 --> 03:32.925
what drew me to the topic.

03:33.185 --> 03:37.565
And, what made me ask, why, why is this happening?

03:38.705 --> 03:41.445
And now you see, when we started this research

03:41.445 --> 03:44.045
that was back in 2016, it was long

03:44.045 --> 03:47.285
before covid, people were still traveling

03:47.305 --> 03:48.565
and people were still meeting.

03:49.145 --> 03:52.645
And so we actually had a chance to attend several meetings

03:53.265 --> 03:57.765
of, organizations that, mobilize for,

03:58.345 --> 04:01.885
against LGBT rights and for moral conservative failures.

04:01.905 --> 04:04.205
For example, the World Congress of Families,

04:04.745 --> 04:05.925
is one example.

04:06.105 --> 04:08.685
And we, we just went to their conference and,

04:08.825 --> 04:09.925
and we were present there.

04:10.105 --> 04:11.525
We listened to the speeches.

04:12.265 --> 04:14.125
Um, we sort of took in the atmosphere,

04:14.545 --> 04:18.125
and we also made contacts with some of the,

04:18.485 --> 04:22.005
NGO leaders there present, to then interview them.

04:22.985 --> 04:25.165
Um, I think it's also noteworthy to say

04:25.165 --> 04:27.445
that we did these interviews in many different languages.

04:28.145 --> 04:31.325
Um, so apart from English, also in German,

04:31.325 --> 04:32.605
which is my native language,

04:32.625 --> 04:35.125
but also in Russian, which is another language I speak,

04:35.865 --> 04:38.045
but also in Italian.

04:38.545 --> 04:42.765
Um, and we, we traveled in order to, to,

04:43.185 --> 04:44.325
do this field work.

04:44.385 --> 04:47.805
We did a lot of the field work, in Russia,

04:48.705 --> 04:53.445
but also in, in Moldova, in, in Hungary where one of these,

04:53.545 --> 04:58.125
meetings took place, in the us

04:58.465 --> 05:02.885
in order to really take in the whole breadth of, of

05:02.885 --> 05:06.205
that network that we were out there to explore,

05:06.405 --> 05:11.085
a network of actors, mobilizing across borders,

05:11.665 --> 05:13.725
across linguistic borders also.

05:13.985 --> 05:16.445
And what was also very interesting across confessionals

05:16.505 --> 05:21.405
or religious borders, against LGBT rights, one

05:21.405 --> 05:25.445
of the mainframes that is used, by these actors is that

05:26.025 --> 05:27.525
of the natural family.

05:28.585 --> 05:32.885
So the idea that there is, a natural family defined

05:32.885 --> 05:35.765
as a heterosexual, couple,

05:35.915 --> 05:39.405
usually religiously married with their biological offspring.

05:39.945 --> 05:42.605
Um, and, and this is, this is the idea of of

05:42.605 --> 05:47.525
of the natural family, which, you know, maybe is indeed,

05:47.745 --> 05:49.285
a reality for many people.

05:49.395 --> 05:52.645
It's also an ideal, but it's also one that we see,

05:52.825 --> 05:56.285
is very often not, not the fact, you know, we have,

05:57.005 --> 05:58.005
a high rate of divorce.

05:58.185 --> 06:00.645
We, and of course we also have other forms of family.

06:00.825 --> 06:03.565
We have single parents, we have same sex parents.

06:04.305 --> 06:08.405
So a big, a big struggle, of these groups is precisely

06:08.405 --> 06:13.085
between nat, the natural family and, and,

06:13.345 --> 06:16.525
and enlarging the whole idea of, of what is a family

06:16.585 --> 06:18.725
and what can be legitimately be called a family.

06:19.025 --> 06:21.485
So very often, the, the framings are really

06:21.825 --> 06:23.085
around that one term.

06:24.395 --> 06:26.405
Another frame that is very commonly used,

06:26.405 --> 06:28.525
and I mean, you used it now in your, in your question,

06:28.545 --> 06:31.005
but it really needs a little bit of unpacking is that

06:31.005 --> 06:32.285
of traditional values,

06:32.915 --> 06:37.565
because the frame traditional values is very often used,

06:38.105 --> 06:41.565
in confrontation with, human rights.

06:42.065 --> 06:44.285
So individual human rights, the idea

06:44.675 --> 06:47.445
that individuals q they being,

06:47.655 --> 06:51.085
human beings have equal rights,

06:51.955 --> 06:55.405
acro universally and across cultures and countries,

06:55.785 --> 06:58.805
and across time really is something that many

06:58.805 --> 07:00.525
of these actors actually reject.

07:00.995 --> 07:03.285
They say that the idea of rights

07:03.305 --> 07:04.765
and the entitlements of a thing

07:04.765 --> 07:07.765
of an individual should be tied to tradition.

07:08.425 --> 07:12.845
So to the traditional morals of, of a society to culture,

07:13.395 --> 07:14.765
also to history, because many

07:14.785 --> 07:16.605
of these traditions are actually, you know,

07:16.605 --> 07:18.405
grown up in hi grow in history.

07:18.665 --> 07:21.685
And I mean, we know that especially for when it comes

07:21.685 --> 07:25.685
to women, when it comes to, to, you know,

07:25.685 --> 07:30.525
homosexual people, this is, they have,

07:30.755 --> 07:33.165
they are really the ones that have been targeted by many

07:33.185 --> 07:37.845
of these traditional mors, let alone children now.

07:37.905 --> 07:40.365
So the, the problem in a way is that the,

07:40.505 --> 07:44.165
the whole traditional values frame, it sounds appealing,

07:44.185 --> 07:47.525
it can sound appealing because it has this idea of wholeness

07:48.265 --> 07:51.285
and, and, and, and connection and community.

07:51.865 --> 07:54.325
Um, but it is really mobilized,

07:54.665 --> 07:58.005
in a very targeted way against individual human rights

07:58.005 --> 08:01.845
and an idea of universal dignity and, and human worth.

08:02.025 --> 08:04.445
So let me just build off of that to, to,

08:04.795 --> 08:08.245
give a few examples of, you know, the outputs of some

08:08.245 --> 08:10.325
of this, these, some of these,

08:10.325 --> 08:12.365
narrative constructions around the natural family

08:12.625 --> 08:14.725
or around, traditional values

08:14.835 --> 08:16.525
that we look at, in the book.

08:16.665 --> 08:19.525
So a lot of this movement has also looked to,

08:19.905 --> 08:21.565
to push legislative changes

08:21.905 --> 08:25.485
or to support court cases, including in,

08:25.485 --> 08:28.805
international courts, to implement some of these ideas

08:28.955 --> 08:30.285
that Christina outlined.

08:30.625 --> 08:33.685
Uh, so we see a lot of, you know, we see a lot of,

08:33.825 --> 08:36.805
uptake around certain kind of religious liberty bills,

08:36.815 --> 08:39.725
which we see in different countries when it comes to,

08:40.065 --> 08:43.605
you know, the take shop, case

08:43.785 --> 08:44.925
or the website cases

08:44.985 --> 08:47.965
around whether people can discriminate against,

08:48.125 --> 08:50.605
LGBT group based on the right of religion.

08:51.105 --> 08:55.085
You also see, you know, a strong focus on opposition

08:55.165 --> 08:57.125
to marriage equality in many contexts.

08:57.545 --> 09:01.445
Um, you see, also the weaponization of certain rights,

09:01.445 --> 09:02.965
like, for example, creating this,

09:02.965 --> 09:04.685
which I think is a false dichotomy,

09:04.705 --> 09:08.805
but, creating a, a wedge between, cis women's rights

09:08.805 --> 09:09.965
and those of trans women,

09:09.965 --> 09:12.205
which is also levied a lot by these groups.

09:12.825 --> 09:17.245
Uh, and of course, you see also, legislation

09:17.245 --> 09:19.925
that's diffusing, under these, ideas

09:19.985 --> 09:23.005
to protect traditional values like so-called Anti-gay

09:23.005 --> 09:26.045
propaganda bills, which we see in many different countries

09:26.065 --> 09:28.445
now, and also quite intensified, which are bills

09:28.445 --> 09:31.445
that try to exclude expression,

09:31.445 --> 09:35.565
queer expression in the public fa space in order to protect,

09:35.745 --> 09:37.765
you know, quote unquote protect,

09:37.765 --> 09:40.645
other groups like children or, or,

09:41.185 --> 09:43.125
or natural, families.

09:43.125 --> 09:45.485
So-called natural families from, a kind

09:45.485 --> 09:47.245
of deviant expression in the space that, of course,

09:47.245 --> 09:50.565
these laws, of course, effectively silence queer groups

09:51.125 --> 09:54.045
entirely if they can't be part, of an inclusive,

09:54.105 --> 09:55.765
plural society in the public space.

09:56.015 --> 09:58.165
There are many other, other examples.

09:58.175 --> 10:02.005
There are bills, also to label LGBT groups

10:02.025 --> 10:05.565
as foreign agents or extremists to try to, to silence them.

10:05.585 --> 10:09.725
But these are, these are kind of outputs of the framing

10:09.875 --> 10:11.725
that, Christina,

10:11.725 --> 10:13.685
or the ideology that Christina presented

10:13.685 --> 10:16.045
that really have these kind of tangible effects on state

10:16.045 --> 10:18.045
politics that we look at in, in the book.

10:18.275 --> 10:19.445
There's a really, you know,

10:19.445 --> 10:21.245
heated debate in human rights activism

10:21.265 --> 10:24.205
and how we can protect LGBT rights given

10:24.205 --> 10:26.525
that they've become, come under such attack.

10:26.705 --> 10:28.885
Of course, this also, we see these kind

10:28.885 --> 10:30.885
of attacks also happening to women's rights,

10:30.885 --> 10:32.725
especially women's reproductive rights in many

10:32.725 --> 10:33.965
different, different places.

10:34.145 --> 10:37.285
And part of that debate falls along two extremes,

10:37.285 --> 10:39.805
which is the concern that kind of visibly advocating

10:39.805 --> 10:42.325
for these rights might introduce, attention

10:42.465 --> 10:46.005
to these groups that make them more visible,

10:46.105 --> 10:49.365
and then can also, increase violence towards them.

10:49.385 --> 10:50.765
And then another extreme, which would be

10:50.765 --> 10:54.045
to do nothing at all because, a lot of times when,

10:54.235 --> 10:56.845
when, either when democratic states

10:56.905 --> 10:59.885
or when human rights organizations, work across borders,

10:59.905 --> 11:03.085
it can be, can fall into the trap of painting LGBT people

11:03.145 --> 11:04.565
as foreign imposition,

11:04.825 --> 11:07.805
or using these kind of neo-colonial arguments,

11:07.805 --> 11:09.925
which I is a false association,

11:09.925 --> 11:12.765
but one that is levied a lot against efforts to do anything.

11:13.445 --> 11:15.805
I think where we're at now, at least, on the basis

11:16.065 --> 11:18.925
of our research with LGBT rights organizations

11:18.925 --> 11:21.165
that also advise ministries of foreign affairs and,

11:21.185 --> 11:24.325
and think about how to promote LGBT rights in this very,

11:24.475 --> 11:26.925
very difficult context, has been one

11:26.925 --> 11:28.925
that really is looking at innovative ways

11:29.025 --> 11:30.885
and sometimes also being less visible.

11:31.145 --> 11:33.885
So it's certainly not do nothing approach,

11:34.225 --> 11:36.445
but it also might not be the former approach

11:36.465 --> 11:39.565
of waving a rainbow flag in every context at every embassy.

11:39.565 --> 11:41.485
You know, there might be other more subtle

11:41.755 --> 11:43.045
ways of doing this work.

11:43.265 --> 11:46.325
And so a lot of it has really been, I think a lot

11:46.325 --> 11:47.885
of the consensus is that you really have

11:47.885 --> 11:50.885
to have local civil society who, that work on gender,

11:51.025 --> 11:53.485
on sexuality, on gender identity, on those kind of rights,

11:53.485 --> 11:54.845
however you call them, in any context

11:55.315 --> 11:57.925
that they should be steering the ship in how this is done.

11:58.315 --> 12:02.045
That might mean supporting them also more, more backdoor or,

12:02.065 --> 12:06.645
or states also supporting, maybe sympathetic members of,

12:06.745 --> 12:09.125
of another state from more behind the scenes than kind

12:09.125 --> 12:12.365
of these vocal shaming tactics that were used.

12:12.625 --> 12:16.445
So to, to, in a sense, to keep also states that are,

12:16.665 --> 12:20.125
you know, to, to not shame states out

12:20.125 --> 12:23.685
of the global societies that might be moving on LGBT rights,

12:23.685 --> 12:26.005
but figuring out a way to support LGBT groups locally.

12:26.585 --> 12:29.885
If you can do that, successfully, what we learned is

12:30.045 --> 12:31.365
that there's really interesting ways

12:31.365 --> 12:34.325
with which local civil society might respond to LGBT rights

12:34.325 --> 12:37.725
that we wouldn't think of in the United Kingdom or in,

12:38.185 --> 12:39.805
or, you know, or in the US or,

12:39.865 --> 12:42.165
or in in Germany, where,

12:42.165 --> 12:43.285
these groups have had a very

12:43.285 --> 12:44.485
different trajectory of activism.

12:44.545 --> 12:47.205
For example, we've learned that, you know,

12:47.235 --> 12:49.765
many LGBT groups are thinking of new ways

12:49.945 --> 12:52.885
to frame their rights, given these kind of attacks.

12:53.025 --> 12:56.205
So there's a lot more focus also on the family in

12:56.325 --> 12:57.685
LGBT dialogue.

12:57.685 --> 12:59.285
So we talk about rainbow families

12:59.285 --> 13:00.565
or more inclusive families.

13:00.795 --> 13:03.485
There's more focus on children's rights, of course.

13:03.745 --> 13:07.685
Uh, children are of, of queer couples are very much impacted

13:08.145 --> 13:09.525
by their right situation.

13:10.225 --> 13:13.445
Of course, children themselves who might be LGBT,

13:13.665 --> 13:15.925
are very impacted when it comes to homelessness,

13:15.995 --> 13:17.325
suicide, all kinds of issues.

13:17.345 --> 13:19.365
So there are ways to really,

13:19.555 --> 13:21.685
also meet these charges from the opposition

13:21.685 --> 13:25.005
to emphasize the work that LGBT groups do for children,

13:25.225 --> 13:26.525
for family, and for women.

13:26.905 --> 13:28.645
You know, those groups that are very central

13:28.905 --> 13:31.205
to LGBT rights, protections.

13:31.435 --> 13:33.725
There's also other interesting ways in some countries

13:33.725 --> 13:34.925
that these groups have done work.

13:35.025 --> 13:37.765
For example, we've seen the use of religious framing,

13:37.955 --> 13:40.365
like love thy neighbor being, you know, a,

13:40.685 --> 13:44.245
a pride parade slogan in, in some countries, like in Poland,

13:44.625 --> 13:46.685
we've seen, attempts to work

13:46.685 --> 13:48.045
with religious communities

13:48.045 --> 13:50.965
and ways to emphasize that there are of course LGBT people

13:50.965 --> 13:52.685
who are religiou or are religious

13:52.685 --> 13:54.685
and have, our faith communities

13:54.685 --> 13:57.445
that this false dichotomy is also put between them,

13:57.445 --> 13:59.445
that they're not, part of the same groups.

13:59.885 --> 14:03.685
I think emphasizing those ties, has been,

14:03.865 --> 14:06.205
has been a turn that we've seen from the more kind

14:06.205 --> 14:07.645
of universal human rights framing

14:07.645 --> 14:10.125
that we might have seen in LGBT activism in the nineties

14:10.125 --> 14:12.445
and early two thousands to potentially,

14:12.505 --> 14:15.565
and maybe paradoxically a more rooted, national

14:16.085 --> 14:17.325
language in order to emphasize

14:17.325 --> 14:19.325
that these communities are indigenous, they're part

14:19.325 --> 14:21.365
of the national makeup of these states.

14:21.585 --> 14:24.605
And I think that's what we're seeing as a, as kind

14:24.605 --> 14:25.845
of a tactical response.

14:26.345 --> 14:28.325
Um, on the LGBT movement side,

14:28.675 --> 14:31.805
What I hope the readers will take from the book

14:32.385 --> 14:36.685
is an understanding that many of, the moral conflicts

14:37.025 --> 14:39.885
and the so-called culture wars

14:39.905 --> 14:43.805
or value wars that polarize, our societies

14:44.945 --> 14:46.685
are nothing really, are not natural.

14:46.795 --> 14:51.565
They're not, they're not, how can I say that?

14:51.565 --> 14:55.125
Maybe I, in that sense, inevitable, they are,

14:55.225 --> 14:57.005
to a certain extent also made.

14:57.265 --> 15:01.165
So what we, what we learned by working on this book is how,

15:01.665 --> 15:05.205
a political agenda is being pushed

15:05.785 --> 15:10.605
by certain groups very effectively, into contexts,

15:11.065 --> 15:13.725
where then issues are framed

15:13.785 --> 15:15.485
and polarizations are created.

15:16.265 --> 15:20.365
And, to a certain extent, this framing of the issues in,

15:20.425 --> 15:22.325
in a transnational key

15:22.345 --> 15:25.605
and language prevents local solutions of the kind

15:25.635 --> 15:27.045
that Philip just talked about.

15:27.585 --> 15:32.365
It prevents, a local in a rooted debate about

15:32.365 --> 15:35.325
what society do we want to be, you know,

15:35.515 --> 15:37.205
what does inclusion mean for us?

15:37.635 --> 15:40.645
What does tolerance mean for us here and now?

15:41.105 --> 15:45.005
Um, all this, this, this debate is stopped when from the

15:45.075 --> 15:47.965
outside, people are told you have

15:47.965 --> 15:50.645
to defend yourself against the global LGBT lobby.

15:51.425 --> 15:53.485
Um, I mean, think about the example of Russia,

15:53.535 --> 15:57.165
which now passed a law against the international LGBT

15:57.405 --> 15:59.045
movement as if such a movement existed.

15:59.265 --> 16:02.285
It doesn't exist. So they passed a law against something,

16:02.905 --> 16:05.325
that really exists more in their imagination.

16:05.785 --> 16:07.565
So what I really hope that people

16:07.905 --> 16:11.045
and readers will take away from that is to say, to,

16:11.465 --> 16:14.845
to trust more experiences here and now and interactions

16:15.145 --> 16:18.925
and not fall for these imaginations and ideologies. Another

16:19.125 --> 16:22.565
Takeaway for us is that it really shows how also

16:23.095 --> 16:25.965
these rights revolutions that we've seen around gender

16:26.025 --> 16:28.565
and sexuality are not inevitable in the sense

16:28.565 --> 16:29.805
that they're not already one.

16:29.955 --> 16:31.245
It's a continued struggle.

16:31.385 --> 16:34.125
And in fact, a lot of the successes we've seen

16:34.125 --> 16:36.885
around the movements are being challenged very actively.

16:37.265 --> 16:39.285
You know, at this time, just in the United States,

16:39.385 --> 16:43.125
for example, there are over 400 active anti-trans bills

16:43.255 --> 16:46.245
being proposed, some of them already having passed.

16:46.385 --> 16:49.605
So it really shows how, you know, vulnerable and fragile.

16:49.715 --> 16:52.725
Some of the rights that we have won in recent decades are

16:52.795 --> 16:53.965
also as we move forward.

16:54.145 --> 16:55.685
And I think this calls upon us

16:55.685 --> 16:57.725
to really think in solidarity about

16:57.725 --> 17:01.205
how we support each other, also within LGBT movements, how,

17:01.545 --> 17:04.405
how we can make sure to center women's rights,

17:04.405 --> 17:06.565
to center trans people's rights, how all

17:06.565 --> 17:08.805
of these rights are very interconnected

17:08.905 --> 17:11.365
and still very vulnerable, moving forward.

17:11.505 --> 17:14.445
And I think, you know, thinking about who's left out

17:14.585 --> 17:17.845
of these successes moving forward is really, a central,

17:18.105 --> 17:21.485
takeaway from the book, given how much,

17:21.585 --> 17:22.845
how much opposition there is.

17:22.905 --> 17:25.445
And then finally, one other small point to make is

17:25.445 --> 17:27.925
that we really have to think that globalization

17:28.145 --> 17:31.325
and these, you know, transnational human rights,

17:31.605 --> 17:33.765
movements that we studied with so much excitement that many

17:33.765 --> 17:36.365
of the tools that we attributed to quote unquote good

17:36.645 --> 17:39.005
movements, are also available to movements

17:39.005 --> 17:40.405
that use them in very different ways

17:40.405 --> 17:41.965
and that we might not consider as good.

17:41.985 --> 17:45.085
And I think it is a huge blind spot if we consider, continue

17:45.085 --> 17:46.895
to think that these groups,

17:46.895 --> 17:48.855
even though they might call themselves nationalists

17:48.995 --> 17:51.335
or focus on the domestic safe space,

17:51.335 --> 17:53.375
aren't also using some of the channels

17:53.375 --> 17:54.815
that transnational politics offers.

17:55.015 --> 17:58.495
I think that's something we need to be very aware of,

17:58.495 --> 17:59.055
moving forward.

00:00 - Christina I met in 2014. we were both working on separate projects, and I was wrapping up a project on how LGBT movements had used transnational tools, to advocate, you know, around their riots. And had led to the, diffusion

00:15 - around many issues in many states, like marriage equality, quite successfully. And as Christina and I were talking about our respective projects, we were noticing how interestingly, the opposition to LGBT rights, which of course has existed always, was increasingly being used, also in these same transnational forum. So we saw a lot of, you know, transnational tools in terms of international NGOs working across borders, certain states

00:43 - that were advocating for traditional values, politics, working with these types of actors, and of course, certain international organizations like the Catholic Church or the, or Orthodox Church that were working, also to actively, you know, promote what they saw as traditional values, what they saw as their opposition to so-called, gender ideology, and that really targeted and centered LGBT people. part of the, you know, the reason that we, that Christina Char in the book why, this target was

01:12 - so effectual is that gender and sexuality, because of their fluidity, you know, they're quite fluid concepts, can be quite easily, twisted by, by opposing groups, to present them as a threat, you know, to create, to stoke some fears and present them as a threat to, tradition to kind of imagine past of the way things work. And so, especially when, you know, if you think of nationalism or, or strong attachment to religious values, gender

01:41 - and sexual, movements around gender and sexuality and gender identity can feel destabilizing. And this has been, you know, has for many, you know, autocratic leaders or liberal leaders, has been an effective and quite easy way to galvanize, a constituency, in opposition. Philipp and I are both political sociologists and, we've worked on social groups, social movements, and, we also, work mostly qualitatively

02:12 - and ethnographically. So the, the bulk of the research, for this project was, field work involving interviews with, political and religious actors and social movement actors, and also participation in events and observation of, of meetings. Now, I think what is special about the book is that we actually did research on, politicized moral conservative groups. So religious actors, conservative actors,

02:48 - people we, we locate on the political right. but we also did research on progressive groups and, and NGOs in, in the L-G-B-T-T rights spectrum. Now, I am a sociologist of religion, and I came to this topic really from the study of religious actors. And, so for me, it was interesting to, to see that, especially in the context of Orthodox Christianity and of Russian Orthodoxy, the topic, to oppose LGBT rights,

03:25 - was in a way growing as, as I was observing the field. And, and so this is also what, what, what drew me to the topic. And, what made me ask, why, why is this happening? And now you see, when we started this research that was back in 2016, it was long before covid, people were still traveling and people were still meeting. And so we actually had a chance to attend several meetings of, organizations that, mobilize for,

03:58 - against LGBT rights and for moral conservative failures. For example, the World Congress of Families, is one example. And we, we just went to their conference and, and we were present there. We listened to the speeches. we sort of took in the atmosphere, and we also made contacts with some of the, NGO leaders there present, to then interview them. I think it's also noteworthy to say

04:25 - that we did these interviews in many different languages. so apart from English, also in German, which is my native language, but also in Russian, which is another language I speak, but also in Italian. and we, we traveled in order to, to, do this field work. We did a lot of the field work, in Russia, but also in, in Moldova, in, in Hungary where one of these, meetings took place, in the us

04:58 - in order to really take in the whole breadth of, of that network that we were out there to explore, a network of actors, mobilizing across borders, across linguistic borders also. And what was also very interesting across confessionals or religious borders, against LGBT rights, one of the mainframes that is used, by these actors is that of the natural family. So the idea that there is, a natural family defined as a heterosexual, couple,

05:35 - usually religiously married with their biological offspring. and, and this is, this is the idea of of of the natural family, which, you know, maybe is indeed, a reality for many people. It's also an ideal, but it's also one that we see, is very often not, not the fact, you know, we have, a high rate of divorce. We, and of course we also have other forms of family. We have single parents, we have same sex parents. So a big, a big struggle, of these groups is precisely

06:08 - between nat, the natural family and, and, and enlarging the whole idea of, of what is a family and what can be legitimately be called a family. So very often, the, the framings are really around that one term. Another frame that is very commonly used, and I mean, you used it now in your, in your question, but it really needs a little bit of unpacking is that of traditional values, because the frame traditional values is very often used,

06:38 - in confrontation with, human rights. So individual human rights, the idea that individuals q they being, human beings have equal rights, acro universally and across cultures and countries, and across time really is something that many of these actors actually reject. They say that the idea of rights and the entitlements of a thing of an individual should be tied to tradition.

07:08 - So to the traditional morals of, of a society to culture, also to history, because many of these traditions are actually, you know, grown up in hi grow in history. And I mean, we know that especially for when it comes to women, when it comes to, to, you know, homosexual people, this is, they have, they are really the ones that have been targeted by many of these traditional mors, let alone children now. So the, the problem in a way is that the,

07:40 - the whole traditional values frame, it sounds appealing, it can sound appealing because it has this idea of wholeness and, and, and, and connection and community. but it is really mobilized, in a very targeted way against individual human rights and an idea of universal dignity and, and human worth. So let me just build off of that to, to, give a few examples of, you know, the outputs of some of this, these, some of these, narrative constructions around the natural family

08:12 - or around, traditional values that we look at, in the book. So a lot of this movement has also looked to, to push legislative changes or to support court cases, including in, international courts, to implement some of these ideas that Christina outlined. so we see a lot of, you know, we see a lot of, uptake around certain kind of religious liberty bills, which we see in different countries when it comes to,

08:40 - you know, the take shop, case or the website cases around whether people can discriminate against, LGBT group based on the right of religion. You also see, you know, a strong focus on opposition to marriage equality in many contexts. you see, also the weaponization of certain rights, like, for example, creating this, which I think is a false dichotomy, but, creating a, a wedge between, cis women's rights

09:08 - and those of trans women, which is also levied a lot by these groups. and of course, you see also, legislation that's diffusing, under these, ideas to protect traditional values like so-called Anti-gay propaganda bills, which we see in many different countries now, and also quite intensified, which are bills that try to exclude expression, queer expression in the public fa space in order to protect, you know, quote unquote protect,

09:37 - other groups like children or, or, or natural, families. So-called natural families from, a kind of deviant expression in the space that, of course, these laws, of course, effectively silence queer groups entirely if they can't be part, of an inclusive, plural society in the public space. There are many other, other examples. There are bills, also to label LGBT groups as foreign agents or extremists to try to, to silence them.

10:05 - But these are, these are kind of outputs of the framing that, Christina, or the ideology that Christina presented that really have these kind of tangible effects on state politics that we look at in, in the book. There's a really, you know, heated debate in human rights activism and how we can protect LGBT rights given that they've become, come under such attack. Of course, this also, we see these kind

10:28 - of attacks also happening to women's rights, especially women's reproductive rights in many different, different places. And part of that debate falls along two extremes, which is the concern that kind of visibly advocating for these rights might introduce, attention to these groups that make them more visible, and then can also, increase violence towards them. And then another extreme, which would be to do nothing at all because, a lot of times when,

10:54 - when, either when democratic states or when human rights organizations, work across borders, it can be, can fall into the trap of painting LGBT people as foreign imposition, or using these kind of neo-colonial arguments, which I is a false association, but one that is levied a lot against efforts to do anything. I think where we're at now, at least, on the basis of our research with LGBT rights organizations that also advise ministries of foreign affairs and,

11:21 - and think about how to promote LGBT rights in this very, very difficult context, has been one that really is looking at innovative ways and sometimes also being less visible. So it's certainly not do nothing approach, but it also might not be the former approach of waving a rainbow flag in every context at every embassy. You know, there might be other more subtle ways of doing this work. And so a lot of it has really been, I think a lot

11:46 - of the consensus is that you really have to have local civil society who, that work on gender, on sexuality, on gender identity, on those kind of rights, however you call them, in any context that they should be steering the ship in how this is done. That might mean supporting them also more, more backdoor or, or states also supporting, maybe sympathetic members of, of another state from more behind the scenes than kind of these vocal shaming tactics that were used. So to, to, in a sense, to keep also states that are,

12:16 - you know, to, to not shame states out of the global societies that might be moving on LGBT rights, but figuring out a way to support LGBT groups locally. If you can do that, successfully, what we learned is that there's really interesting ways with which local civil society might respond to LGBT rights that we wouldn't think of in the United Kingdom or in, or, you know, or in the US or, or in in Germany, where, these groups have had a very

12:43 - different trajectory of activism. For example, we've learned that, you know, many LGBT groups are thinking of new ways to frame their rights, given these kind of attacks. So there's a lot more focus also on the family in LGBT dialogue. So we talk about rainbow families or more inclusive families. There's more focus on children's rights, of course. children are of, of queer couples are very much impacted

13:08 - by their right situation. Of course, children themselves who might be LGBT, are very impacted when it comes to homelessness, suicide, all kinds of issues. So there are ways to really, also meet these charges from the opposition to emphasize the work that LGBT groups do for children, for family, and for women. You know, those groups that are very central to LGBT rights, protections.

13:31 - There's also other interesting ways in some countries that these groups have done work. For example, we've seen the use of religious framing, like love thy neighbor being, you know, a, a pride parade slogan in, in some countries, like in Poland, we've seen, attempts to work with religious communities and ways to emphasize that there are of course LGBT people who are religiou or are religious and have, our faith communities

13:54 - that this false dichotomy is also put between them, that they're not, part of the same groups. I think emphasizing those ties, has been, has been a turn that we've seen from the more kind of universal human rights framing that we might have seen in LGBT activism in the nineties and early two thousands to potentially, and maybe paradoxically a more rooted, national language in order to emphasize that these communities are indigenous, they're part

14:19 - of the national makeup of these states. And I think that's what we're seeing as a, as kind of a tactical response. on the LGBT movement side, What I hope the readers will take from the book is an understanding that many of, the moral conflicts and the so-called culture wars or value wars that polarize, our societies are nothing really, are not natural. They're not, they're not, how can I say that?

14:51 - Maybe I, in that sense, inevitable, they are, to a certain extent also made. So what we, what we learned by working on this book is how, a political agenda is being pushed by certain groups very effectively, into contexts, where then issues are framed and polarizations are created. And, to a certain extent, this framing of the issues in, in a transnational key and language prevents local solutions of the kind

15:25 - that Philip just talked about. It prevents, a local in a rooted debate about what society do we want to be, you know, what does inclusion mean for us? What does tolerance mean for us here and now? all this, this, this debate is stopped when from the outside, people are told you have to defend yourself against the global LGBT lobby. I mean, think about the example of Russia, which now passed a law against the international LGBT

15:57 - movement as if such a movement existed. It doesn't exist. So they passed a law against something, that really exists more in their imagination. So what I really hope that people and readers will take away from that is to say, to, to trust more experiences here and now and interactions and not fall for these imaginations and ideologies. Another Takeaway for us is that it really shows how also these rights revolutions that we've seen around gender and sexuality are not inevitable in the sense

16:28 - that they're not already one. It's a continued struggle. And in fact, a lot of the successes we've seen around the movements are being challenged very actively. You know, at this time, just in the United States, for example, there are over 400 active anti-trans bills being proposed, some of them already having passed. So it really shows how, you know, vulnerable and fragile. Some of the rights that we have won in recent decades are also as we move forward.

16:54 - And I think this calls upon us to really think in solidarity about how we support each other, also within LGBT movements, how, how we can make sure to center women's rights, to center trans people's rights, how all of these rights are very interconnected and still very vulnerable, moving forward. And I think, you know, thinking about who's left out of these successes moving forward is really, a central, takeaway from the book, given how much,

17:21 - how much opposition there is. And then finally, one other small point to make is that we really have to think that globalization and these, you know, transnational human rights, movements that we studied with so much excitement that many of the tools that we attributed to quote unquote good movements, are also available to movements that use them in very different ways and that we might not consider as good. And I think it is a huge blind spot if we consider, continue

17:45 - to think that these groups, even though they might call themselves nationalists or focus on the domestic safe space, aren't also using some of the channels that transnational politics offers. I think that's something we need to be very aware of, moving forward.

Faculti AI can make mistakes