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The Politics of Perverts

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View the page of Charles Anthony Smith

View the page of Connor B. S. Strobel

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Charles Anthony Smith and Connor B. S. Strobel discuss the political attitudes and activities of individuals who identify with non-traditional sexual orientations and practices, such as Polyamory, BDSM, the Furry Fandom, Nudism, and the large bisexual population within these communities.

Image courtesy of interviewee. February 29, 2024

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This video video discusses a book motivated by the evolving landscape of sexual rights in the United States, particularly as marriage equality became more accepted. The authors, who focus on political research regarding sexuality, explore underrepresented groups such as BDSM practitioners, nudists, polyamorists, and members of the furry fandom, questioning who else might be seeking rights based on their sexual identities.

They highlight that while gay rights have taken decades to evolve, other sexual minorities are on the brink of seeking recognition and rights. The authors emphasize the importance of understanding and humanizing these groups, noting that they are politically active and diverse, and they can be significant voting blocs if mobilized correctly.

The research reveals that a considerable percentage of members from these subcultures identify as bisexual, challenging traditional norms that often overlook bisexuality in LGBTQ+ studies. The authors coin the term "perverts" for these groups, intending to reclaim the term from a negative connotation, thereby fostering a sense of empowerment among their members.

Importantly, the authors argue that sensationalist views of these communities misrepresent their desires and aspirations, emphasizing their normality and humanity. This video video posits that all communities, regardless of sexual orientation, share common goals of love, acceptance, and respect, and stresses the potential for these sexual minorities to mobilize politically and achieve rights akin to those gained by the gay community.

Ultimately, the authors aspire to bridge understanding, acceptance, and equality for non-traditional sexual minorities, arguing that acknowledging their rights represents a new civil rights movement poised to expand the definition of marriage and personal autonomy in the future.

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Here are some similar articles or topics that align with the themes and subjects discussed in the video:

1. **The Evolution of Sexual Rights in the U.S.: A Historical Perspective** - An article examining how sexual rights have progressed over the years, focusing on landmark legislation and social movements that have paved the way for marginalized sexual communities.

2. **Expanding the LGBTQ+ Conversation: Including Bisexuality and Beyond** - A piece discussing the often overlooked intersectionality of bisexuality within the LGBTQ+ community and how bisexual individuals navigate their identities within broader sexual rights movements.

3. **The Politics of Sexual Minorities** - An exploration of political activism among sexual minorities, including BDSM practitioners, nudists, polyamorists, and others, assessing how these groups organize and advocate for their rights.

4. **Reclaiming "Pervert": Empowerment through Language and Identity** - An article focused on the reclamation of derogatory terms within sexual subcultures, discussing the psychological and social impacts of such movements.

5. **Representing the Unseen: Documenting the Lives of Alternative Sexual Communities** - A study that highlights ethnographic research among sexual minorities, emphasizing their experiences, challenges, and contributions to society.

6. **Marriage Equality and Its Ripple Effects on Other Sexual Minorities** - A detailed analysis of how the push for marriage equality set a precedent for other sexual minorities to fight for recognition and legal rights.

7. **Common Goals: The Intersectionality of Love and Acceptance Across Sexual Identities** - This article discusses how diverse sexual communities share universal desires for love, acceptance, and respect, shedding light on their collective struggles for rights.

8. **Activism and Representation: The Impact of Non-Traditional Sexual Communities on Politics** - An overview of how different sexual communities are becoming more politically active and what this means for future civil rights movements.

9. **The Normalization of Alternative Lifestyles: Challenging Societal Norms** - An article that delves into how alternative sexual lifestyles are portrayed in media and academia, and the implications for societal acceptance.

10. **The Future of Sexual Rights: Expanding Definitions of Marriage and Autonomy** - A forward-looking perspective on how the rights of sexual minorities may shape discussions and laws surrounding marriage, family, and individual freedoms.

These articles reflect themes of political activism, the intersectionality of sexual identities, and the evolving landscape of sexual rights in America.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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The motivation for the book was,

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as it looked like the United States Supreme Court was moving

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to embrace marriage equality, we were wondering, well,

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what's next in sexuality and politics research?

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Who, who do we look for as having their rights taken away

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or not granted,

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because of their sexuality beyond the, gay

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and lesbian population?

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And that led us to think about people

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who are in B**M lifestyle, people who were in nudism, people

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who were in polyamory,

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and people that are in the furry fandom.

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Um, Connor is a grad, was a grad student at uc,

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Irvine, where I'm on faculty.

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And we had worked together in, teaching,

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a variety of different ways.

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And so it seemed really organic

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and natural to bring Connor in on the project,

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because much of his independent research is driven

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by thinking through how Outgroups maneuver through society

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and their own, connections.

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You know, in addition to thinking about sort

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of what's next in, you know, coming

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after marriage equality, you know, we were thinking, well,

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you know, gay rights didn't just sort of happened

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with the snap of your fingers.

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And it was sort of decades in the moment, in the making.

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And, you know, marriage as sort

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of the priority issue was not

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how it had always been coming out

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of the lavender scare in the 1950s.

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And so with trying to figure out, you know,

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what other groups might be, on the horizon for,

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equality and whether it's sex rights,

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and the like, we realized that well, all these groups too,

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you know, are at the cusp

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of being political entities in the us.

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Uh, they're, you know,

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furries have been scapegoated in recent congressional

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and in local elections,

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and they're not seen as, political constituencies

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or sort of political groups in the same way

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that now there's considered to be like a gay vote.

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And so we were also trying to figure out, well, in order

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for something to be on the horizon for new rights,

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new movements, new campaigns, new politics,

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what would it also take to make some of these groups

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political entities themselves?

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Sometimes that's thrust upon them.

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And then other times that's a process

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where community communities come together

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and figure out what their priorities are

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and the things that they want to mobilize on.

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It's those four groups, polyamory,

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which is simply more than two people in a emotional

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and sexual relationship.

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Uh, B**M, which is bondage, domination, and sadomasochism.

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And there the power relationships are the,

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erotic relationship, not particularly male,

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female, that kind of thing.

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Um, furries are, are people who are members

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of the furry fandom.

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Some of them have personas, some

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of them have full blown fur suits.

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Others simply appreciate the art and, and the lifestyle

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and the, the culture,

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and the nudist have been, around for a very long time.

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In fact, polyamory, B**M

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and Nudism have been around as long as we've had history

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of, of people.

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So there's nothing new about these groups.

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But what's new with our approach is we're looking in the,

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in the, the book, the Politics of Perverts,

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we're looking at their political attitudes

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and their political activities.

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And one really interesting thing that we found

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is something like 30% of the members of these groups

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consider themselves bisexual.

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And that's a new finding because often in gay

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and lesbian research, the bisexuals are invisible.

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Nobody can find the bis.

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Um, so,

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those are the groups we use the nomen clincher perverts

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because the external world views these groups

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as perverted and just driven by sexuality much the way that

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this great world used to,

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and sometimes still does treat gays and lesbians as if sex

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and sexuality are the only aspect of the, the community.

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So we use the word perverts with, love

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and affection for these groups.

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And we cleared with all of these, the elites that we talked

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to in these groups, if it would be okay to call it that.

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And they all thought it was very funny

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and very sort of, empowering to reclaim the slur from,

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the what you might think of as a straight world.

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You know, a lot of people don't know about these

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communities, or at least don't know them as a community.

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They might know about, you know, nudity in, in general.

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Um, maybe someone has heard of B**M

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because there were more copies of 50 Shades

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of Grace sold than, than there are people in the us.

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Um, but they don't really know other than sort

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of the sensation or just kind of through the,

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through the grapevine what these groups are like.

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And that makes them quite susceptible to being sort

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of scapegoated to being sensationalized.

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And quickly early on as we were talking to people

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and doing field work, we were realizing that, you know,

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sexuality is really not meaningfully more prevalent in some

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of these groups, and it really is in virtually any other

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sort of social, community.

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And, and so, and it changes and it trans

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and it transmogrifies in different ways.

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Uh, but what's important about that is

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how stark a contrast from the idea

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that Tony was saying earlier, that, you know,

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these groups are considered both hypersexual and all,

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and as was in necessarily pious,

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particularly towards children.

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And, and sort of in innocent women.

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And meanwhile, you know, the, there are many furries who,

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who are minors who are just in, you know,

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who are interested in art, who have, you know.

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And so some of these groups have quite strong allergies

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to sort of sexuality in a, in different ways.

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And so one of the things

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that's quite interesting is precisely the, the very things

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for which they're scapegoated, the very reasons that,

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they're targeted and used as to invoke fear in an unknowing

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or easily,

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duped populace are precisely the things

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that they themselves take issue with are opposed

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to just for a little background.

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In addition to going to different communities, whether

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that's conventions or, re sort of resorts and events.

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We, we did, both in person

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and online survey, some of it, some of which was modeled

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after, after, po political opinion

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and behavior polls, by Pew.

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And then we had our own supplemental polling as well to try

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and understand, you know, for the first time,

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who makes up these communities,

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what are their political beliefs

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and what are their political behaviors?

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And one of the things that we saw

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and that we spent a lot of time talking about in the book is

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the, none of these communities,

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just like pretty much any other community in the us,

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they're not monolithic on any political score.

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They're incredibly active in thinking, in talking about

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and thinking about politics.

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They're, they discuss with others in their community

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as well as folks outside the community, their family,

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friends, neighbors, politics.

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They're active readers of the news.

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Um, but also, you know, you,

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you have these popular conceptions of like,

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nudists are just sort of left hippies kind

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of from the sixties with the Beatles

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and the tie dye and whatever.

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Uh, but if you look at their public opinion polling

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and their ideological spectrum that we, we chart and we met,

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and this, the variation that you see within nudists

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is not meaningfully different than the

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overall US population.

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And so you, we often think about pro body attitudes

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or pro sexuality attitudes, people

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who have more liberal opinions towards, L-G-B-T-Q issues

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and the like, is inherently being kind of in the pocket of

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Democrats, sort of a solid democratic vote.

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And these folks often have, are not particularly partisan,

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but they have a variety of different opinions.

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They're mobilized on issues that sometimes have nothing

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to do with these communities.

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And they have different ideas on

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what it would take to mobilize them.

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Some of them think, you know, they might,

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because they might be regulated by, say, zoning issues,

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as an instance for say, nudist resorts, spas,

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and sites, well, local issues might be able

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to mobilize them as a community.

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Some think, well, you know, they're also self-aware

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that the more visible, sometimes you, there might be a risk

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of blow back and maybe they like the privacy,

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maybe sometimes they don't want to become a pol a sort

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of politically engaged as a community,

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but they're incredibly diverse.

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They're incredibly participatory in

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politics and aware of it.

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And because none of the groups are particularly partisan,

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even though they're quite politically thoughtful and astute

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and active sort of readers

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and thinkers about politics, what that does mean is if

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a politician were to appeal to these groups around a variety

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of issues that might, might matter, not only to them,

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but to other people, they have the opportunity

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to mobilize a considerable voting block in their favor.

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And also can do so in ways that, you know,

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don't run the risk of sort

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of blow back from opposition groups, annuus groups,

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anti furry groups and the like.

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And so the fact that they have not been captured within the

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partisan political process in the United States makes 'em

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considerably formidable.

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If it's the case that we see greater sort

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of scapegoating in future campaigns, if the right issue

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and the right politicians come around that can mobilize them

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as a community, they could have a transformative effect.

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Because based off some of the estimates

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that we've seen in some of the previous literature,

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the communities themselves, these groups are larger than the

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L-G-B-T-Q population in the United States.

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And so if thinking about getting out the

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gay vote is really important and local congressional

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and presidential elections, well certainly a group

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that's larger than that could also be formidable in at a

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variety of, scales.

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One of the take home lessons from the politics

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of perverts is that this giant block of voters, the,

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our best guess in looking at all the data is if you put

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these four groups together,

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there may be three times the size of the LGBT community

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and IT, or the gay lesbian community,

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and it's primarily driven by the polyamory

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and B**M communities, which are very, very large.

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Um, nudism is large, but not as large as the others.

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furries are much smaller.

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It's an emerging community, but both the left

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and the right politically could

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make a pitch for these people.

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With the left, it's about personal freedom, the right

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to live your life the way you want

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to bodily autonomy these kinds of questions.

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And for the right, or at least for the old fashioned, right,

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it, it would be about small government

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and government not intervening in your

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life and that sort of thing.

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And these folks are, they tend to, to be,

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in general, the groups tend

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to be a little bit more liberal on things

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about personal choice.

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So abortion, gay rights,

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same sex marriage, these kinds of things.

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They're more liberal than the Republican party,

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but they're not that different than the middle of the road

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American, regardless of, of partisan affiliation.

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So, otherwise when you look at taxes, economics,

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foreign policy, all these other sorts of issues,

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they have just sort of a normal distribution, across,

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the, the, the spectrum.

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So they're up for grabs.

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If you could, as a political party

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or a politician, give them a reason to vote for you.

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That's personal. And this is one of the things that, we,

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we think is gonna happen over the next couple of years.

11:45.085 --> 11:46.525
Somebody is gonna say, Hey,

11:46.615 --> 11:49.325
there isn't any reason three people can't be

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married if they want to be.

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This is thousands of year old model of marriage,

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and we got rid of it for reasons that are tied to,

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the religious sensibilities of some of the people

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who were the framers of the,

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of the Constitution and the founders.

12:05.155 --> 12:06.735
But we didn't really get rid of it.

12:06.835 --> 12:09.335
It, we just quit recognizing illegally.

12:09.875 --> 12:14.295
Um, B**M, you know, again, 50 shades of Gray,

12:14.295 --> 12:16.575
which the B DSM community generally makes fun of,

12:16.965 --> 12:19.615
sold more copies in the United States than there are adults.

12:19.965 --> 12:23.095
That means there were people buying a second version of it

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because they, I don't know,

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lost it or something, I'm not sure.

12:26.675 --> 12:30.735
But the, there is a much greater interest in

12:31.275 --> 12:33.935
the sexual aspects of, of B**M

12:34.645 --> 12:36.455
than we like to admit.

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It's sort of like when you're on one of these social,

12:39.455 --> 12:41.415
media network or social networks

12:41.595 --> 12:42.655
and it says,

12:42.805 --> 12:44.855
this post is run against our community standards.

12:45.155 --> 12:48.175
The, the running joke is they don't really understand my

12:48.415 --> 12:51.295
community if they think this is against their standards.

12:51.405 --> 12:53.415
This is, we're right in the middle of my standards here.

12:53.875 --> 12:56.895
So, we think that we are at the cusp of

12:57.495 --> 12:59.015
a new civil rights movement

12:59.325 --> 13:02.295
that will take these non-traditional sexual,

13:02.575 --> 13:06.495
minority groups and have them, move forward

13:06.755 --> 13:08.095
to demand full

13:08.115 --> 13:10.895
and complete rights like every other citizen now has.

13:11.515 --> 13:14.215
So the first thing I want, I hope people take from this book

13:14.955 --> 13:16.815
is normalizing

13:17.075 --> 13:21.575
and humanizing these sexual minority groups to understand,

13:22.235 --> 13:26.175
these people are just like everybody else.

13:26.405 --> 13:29.535
They just do things a little differently, in the bedroom

13:29.675 --> 13:33.095
and in their relationships that if you, we, we went

13:33.095 --> 13:35.415
to a polyamory support group in New Mexico,

13:36.235 --> 13:37.615
and if you didn't know,

13:37.675 --> 13:39.855
it was like a potluck dinner, everybody brings stuff.

13:39.955 --> 13:42.775
If you didn't know what the premise of the meeting was,

13:43.195 --> 13:44.775
you would've thought maybe it was the

13:44.775 --> 13:45.855
neighborhood soccer league.

13:46.225 --> 13:48.135
There were little kids, there were old people,

13:48.135 --> 13:51.055
there were every kind of family grouping you could imagine.

13:51.715 --> 13:53.175
And the only difference was

13:53.785 --> 13:56.015
these folks have more than two people in their

13:56.565 --> 13:57.775
emotional relationships.

13:58.355 --> 14:03.295
So if, if the public could pull their, the, the lens

14:03.555 --> 14:06.135
of heteronormative patriarchy

14:06.645 --> 14:08.335
back away from their eyes a little bit,

14:08.635 --> 14:11.575
and see these groups as these are human beings.

14:11.765 --> 14:15.335
They have love, they have desires, they have ambition,

14:15.605 --> 14:17.735
they have hope, they have everything

14:18.005 --> 14:19.775
that everybody else has in their life,

14:20.035 --> 14:22.975
and they just do one thing a little bit differently

14:23.435 --> 14:25.615
and maybe other maybe more than one thing, but,

14:26.035 --> 14:29.775
but these are people who are deserving of

14:30.685 --> 14:33.375
respect, dignity, fair treatment,

14:33.435 --> 14:36.415
and equality, just like every other group

14:36.475 --> 14:38.695
that's ever been disadvantaged within

14:38.805 --> 14:40.335
Each one of these communities.

14:40.335 --> 14:43.415
When we did the open response portions of our survey,

14:43.525 --> 14:45.455
when we talked to people, when we observe them,

14:45.885 --> 14:49.685
much like the, the example that Tony gave, you know,

14:49.915 --> 14:53.445
what they want in life is no different than anyone else.

14:53.625 --> 14:56.205
And, you know, we tried to give a snapshot of sort of

14:56.205 --> 14:57.845
what these communities like are like

14:57.845 --> 15:01.445
with the providing deep histories really for the first time,

15:01.445 --> 15:04.205
particularly in a comparative way, providing some sort

15:04.205 --> 15:06.725
of survey about what these communities are like

15:06.725 --> 15:08.445
and who composed them really

15:08.505 --> 15:11.085
for the first time in a comparative way.

15:11.945 --> 15:14.165
But, you know, they all have deep love

15:14.265 --> 15:16.365
for their families and their friends.

15:16.915 --> 15:20.325
They want to be able to do the very things

15:20.325 --> 15:21.405
that everyone else wants.

15:21.465 --> 15:23.605
And there's one respondent who says, you know,

15:23.605 --> 15:27.525
other than the fact that, you know, I, I have,

15:27.645 --> 15:31.005
I mean I'm part of this particular community, everyone

15:31.565 --> 15:32.765
re regardless if they knew that

15:32.765 --> 15:34.565
or not, would think I'm as American as apple pie.

15:35.225 --> 15:38.165
And, and I think what they, what each one

15:38.165 --> 15:40.085
of these communities practices with the people who

15:40.765 --> 15:42.965
welcomed us in or, you know, with the other members

15:42.965 --> 15:46.005
of the community is a kind of open-mindedness to let

15:46.665 --> 15:48.445
people sort of express themselves

15:49.185 --> 15:52.805
and to really sort of be a melting pot of such.

15:52.905 --> 15:54.605
And you know, we hope that by

15:55.205 --> 15:56.405
learning about these communities

15:56.465 --> 15:59.605
and providing a sale for the kind of sensationalism

15:59.605 --> 16:02.045
that has been bubbling the past couple years,

16:02.045 --> 16:05.005
that it gives people a resource to treat them

16:05.005 --> 16:06.525
with the same kind of open-mindedness

16:06.525 --> 16:07.285
that they treat others.

00:00 - The motivation for the book was, as it looked like the United States Supreme Court was moving to embrace marriage equality, we were wondering, well, what's next in sexuality and politics research? Who, who do we look for as having their rights taken away or not granted,

00:20 - because of their sexuality beyond the, gay and lesbian population? And that led us to think about people who are in B**M lifestyle, people who were in nudism, people who were in polyamory, and people that are in the furry fandom. Connor is a grad, was a grad student at uc, Irvine, where I'm on faculty. And we had worked together in, teaching, a variety of different ways.

00:47 - And so it seemed really organic and natural to bring Connor in on the project, because much of his independent research is driven by thinking through how Outgroups maneuver through society and their own, connections. You know, in addition to thinking about sort of what's next in, you know, coming after marriage equality, you know, we were thinking, well, you know, gay rights didn't just sort of happened with the snap of your fingers.

01:14 - And it was sort of decades in the moment, in the making. And, you know, marriage as sort of the priority issue was not how it had always been coming out of the lavender scare in the 1950s. And so with trying to figure out, you know, what other groups might be, on the horizon for, equality and whether it's sex rights, and the like, we realized that well, all these groups too, you know, are at the cusp

01:40 - of being political entities in the us. they're, you know, furries have been scapegoated in recent congressional and in local elections, and they're not seen as, political constituencies or sort of political groups in the same way that now there's considered to be like a gay vote. And so we were also trying to figure out, well, in order for something to be on the horizon for new rights, new movements, new campaigns, new politics,

02:07 - what would it also take to make some of these groups political entities themselves? Sometimes that's thrust upon them. And then other times that's a process where community communities come together and figure out what their priorities are and the things that they want to mobilize on. It's those four groups, polyamory, which is simply more than two people in a emotional and sexual relationship.

02:32 - B**M, which is bondage, domination, and sadomasochism. And there the power relationships are the, erotic relationship, not particularly male, female, that kind of thing. furries are, are people who are members of the furry fandom. Some of them have personas, some of them have full blown fur suits. Others simply appreciate the art and, and the lifestyle and the, the culture,

02:59 - and the nudist have been, around for a very long time. In fact, polyamory, B**M and Nudism have been around as long as we've had history of, of people. So there's nothing new about these groups. But what's new with our approach is we're looking in the, in the, the book, the Politics of Perverts, we're looking at their political attitudes and their political activities. And one really interesting thing that we found

03:25 - is something like 30% of the members of these groups consider themselves bisexual. And that's a new finding because often in gay and lesbian research, the bisexuals are invisible. Nobody can find the bis. so, those are the groups we use the nomen clincher perverts because the external world views these groups as perverted and just driven by sexuality much the way that this great world used to,

03:54 - and sometimes still does treat gays and lesbians as if sex and sexuality are the only aspect of the, the community. So we use the word perverts with, love and affection for these groups. And we cleared with all of these, the elites that we talked to in these groups, if it would be okay to call it that. And they all thought it was very funny and very sort of, empowering to reclaim the slur from, the what you might think of as a straight world. You know, a lot of people don't know about these

04:27 - communities, or at least don't know them as a community. They might know about, you know, nudity in, in general. maybe someone has heard of B**M because there were more copies of 50 Shades of Grace sold than, than there are people in the us. but they don't really know other than sort of the sensation or just kind of through the, through the grapevine what these groups are like. And that makes them quite susceptible to being sort of scapegoated to being sensationalized.

04:55 - And quickly early on as we were talking to people and doing field work, we were realizing that, you know, sexuality is really not meaningfully more prevalent in some of these groups, and it really is in virtually any other sort of social, community. And, and so, and it changes and it trans and it transmogrifies in different ways. but what's important about that is how stark a contrast from the idea that Tony was saying earlier, that, you know,

05:23 - these groups are considered both hypersexual and all, and as was in necessarily pious, particularly towards children. And, and sort of in innocent women. And meanwhile, you know, the, there are many furries who, who are minors who are just in, you know, who are interested in art, who have, you know. And so some of these groups have quite strong allergies to sort of sexuality in a, in different ways. And so one of the things

05:49 - that's quite interesting is precisely the, the very things for which they're scapegoated, the very reasons that, they're targeted and used as to invoke fear in an unknowing or easily, duped populace are precisely the things that they themselves take issue with are opposed to just for a little background. In addition to going to different communities, whether that's conventions or, re sort of resorts and events. We, we did, both in person

06:19 - and online survey, some of it, some of which was modeled after, after, po political opinion and behavior polls, by Pew. And then we had our own supplemental polling as well to try and understand, you know, for the first time, who makes up these communities, what are their political beliefs and what are their political behaviors? And one of the things that we saw and that we spent a lot of time talking about in the book is

06:46 - the, none of these communities, just like pretty much any other community in the us, they're not monolithic on any political score. They're incredibly active in thinking, in talking about and thinking about politics. They're, they discuss with others in their community as well as folks outside the community, their family, friends, neighbors, politics. They're active readers of the news. but also, you know, you,

07:10 - you have these popular conceptions of like, nudists are just sort of left hippies kind of from the sixties with the Beatles and the tie dye and whatever. but if you look at their public opinion polling and their ideological spectrum that we, we chart and we met, and this, the variation that you see within nudists is not meaningfully different than the overall US population. And so you, we often think about pro body attitudes

07:36 - or pro sexuality attitudes, people who have more liberal opinions towards, L-G-B-T-Q issues and the like, is inherently being kind of in the pocket of Democrats, sort of a solid democratic vote. And these folks often have, are not particularly partisan, but they have a variety of different opinions. They're mobilized on issues that sometimes have nothing to do with these communities. And they have different ideas on what it would take to mobilize them.

08:05 - Some of them think, you know, they might, because they might be regulated by, say, zoning issues, as an instance for say, nudist resorts, spas, and sites, well, local issues might be able to mobilize them as a community. Some think, well, you know, they're also self-aware that the more visible, sometimes you, there might be a risk of blow back and maybe they like the privacy, maybe sometimes they don't want to become a pol a sort of politically engaged as a community,

08:31 - but they're incredibly diverse. They're incredibly participatory in politics and aware of it. And because none of the groups are particularly partisan, even though they're quite politically thoughtful and astute and active sort of readers and thinkers about politics, what that does mean is if a politician were to appeal to these groups around a variety of issues that might, might matter, not only to them, but to other people, they have the opportunity

08:59 - to mobilize a considerable voting block in their favor. And also can do so in ways that, you know, don't run the risk of sort of blow back from opposition groups, annuus groups, anti furry groups and the like. And so the fact that they have not been captured within the partisan political process in the United States makes 'em considerably formidable. If it's the case that we see greater sort of scapegoating in future campaigns, if the right issue

09:27 - and the right politicians come around that can mobilize them as a community, they could have a transformative effect. Because based off some of the estimates that we've seen in some of the previous literature, the communities themselves, these groups are larger than the L-G-B-T-Q population in the United States. And so if thinking about getting out the gay vote is really important and local congressional and presidential elections, well certainly a group that's larger than that could also be formidable in at a

09:55 - variety of, scales. One of the take home lessons from the politics of perverts is that this giant block of voters, the, our best guess in looking at all the data is if you put these four groups together, there may be three times the size of the LGBT community and IT, or the gay lesbian community, and it's primarily driven by the polyamory and B**M communities, which are very, very large. nudism is large, but not as large as the others.

10:23 - furries are much smaller. It's an emerging community, but both the left and the right politically could make a pitch for these people. With the left, it's about personal freedom, the right to live your life the way you want to bodily autonomy these kinds of questions. And for the right, or at least for the old fashioned, right, it, it would be about small government and government not intervening in your

10:46 - life and that sort of thing. And these folks are, they tend to, to be, in general, the groups tend to be a little bit more liberal on things about personal choice. So abortion, gay rights, same sex marriage, these kinds of things. They're more liberal than the Republican party, but they're not that different than the middle of the road American, regardless of, of partisan affiliation.

11:15 - So, otherwise when you look at taxes, economics, foreign policy, all these other sorts of issues, they have just sort of a normal distribution, across, the, the, the spectrum. So they're up for grabs. If you could, as a political party or a politician, give them a reason to vote for you. That's personal. And this is one of the things that, we, we think is gonna happen over the next couple of years. Somebody is gonna say, Hey,

11:46 - there isn't any reason three people can't be married if they want to be. This is thousands of year old model of marriage, and we got rid of it for reasons that are tied to, the religious sensibilities of some of the people who were the framers of the, of the Constitution and the founders. But we didn't really get rid of it. It, we just quit recognizing illegally. B**M, you know, again, 50 shades of Gray,

12:14 - which the B DSM community generally makes fun of, sold more copies in the United States than there are adults. That means there were people buying a second version of it because they, I don't know, lost it or something, I'm not sure. But the, there is a much greater interest in the sexual aspects of, of B**M than we like to admit. It's sort of like when you're on one of these social, media network or social networks

12:41 - and it says, this post is run against our community standards. The, the running joke is they don't really understand my community if they think this is against their standards. This is, we're right in the middle of my standards here. So, we think that we are at the cusp of a new civil rights movement that will take these non-traditional sexual, minority groups and have them, move forward to demand full

13:08 - and complete rights like every other citizen now has. So the first thing I want, I hope people take from this book is normalizing and humanizing these sexual minority groups to understand, these people are just like everybody else. They just do things a little differently, in the bedroom and in their relationships that if you, we, we went to a polyamory support group in New Mexico, and if you didn't know, it was like a potluck dinner, everybody brings stuff.

13:39 - If you didn't know what the premise of the meeting was, you would've thought maybe it was the neighborhood soccer league. There were little kids, there were old people, there were every kind of family grouping you could imagine. And the only difference was these folks have more than two people in their emotional relationships. So if, if the public could pull their, the, the lens of heteronormative patriarchy

14:06 - back away from their eyes a little bit, and see these groups as these are human beings. They have love, they have desires, they have ambition, they have hope, they have everything that everybody else has in their life, and they just do one thing a little bit differently and maybe other maybe more than one thing, but, but these are people who are deserving of respect, dignity, fair treatment, and equality, just like every other group

14:36 - that's ever been disadvantaged within Each one of these communities. When we did the open response portions of our survey, when we talked to people, when we observe them, much like the, the example that Tony gave, you know, what they want in life is no different than anyone else. And, you know, we tried to give a snapshot of sort of what these communities like are like with the providing deep histories really for the first time, particularly in a comparative way, providing some sort

15:04 - of survey about what these communities are like and who composed them really for the first time in a comparative way. But, you know, they all have deep love for their families and their friends. They want to be able to do the very things that everyone else wants. And there's one respondent who says, you know, other than the fact that, you know, I, I have, I mean I'm part of this particular community, everyone

15:31 - re regardless if they knew that or not, would think I'm as American as apple pie. And, and I think what they, what each one of these communities practices with the people who welcomed us in or, you know, with the other members of the community is a kind of open-mindedness to let people sort of express themselves and to really sort of be a melting pot of such. And you know, we hope that by learning about these communities

15:56 - and providing a sale for the kind of sensationalism that has been bubbling the past couple years, that it gives people a resource to treat them with the same kind of open-mindedness that they treat others.

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