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Cheryl Matias draws from critical race theory and critical whiteness studies to investigate the ways in which whiteness and interest convengence impact modern day racial justice efforts.

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 8, 2024

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This video discusses the diverse perceptions and approaches to racial justice, emphasizing that people often have differing and unrecognized notions about what racial justice entails. Some may engage through reading or attending discussions, while others participate actively in protests against anti-Black racism. The speaker, an academic, argues that understanding and addressing white supremacy—viewed as the underlying disease—requires critical race theory and critical whiteness studies.

The speaker critiques the contemporary engagement with racial justice movements, especially in the wake of events like the pandemic and the deaths of individuals such as Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. They note that while it's encouraging to see increased awareness around race, simply becoming informed is insufficient; meaningful action is necessary.

They outline three problematic tactics often evident in racial justice movements:

1. **Creation of Binaries**: This video includes oversimplifying issues into "us vs. them" dynamics, which can alienate potential allies and stifle nuanced discussions.

2. **Reverse Victimization**: This video tactic involves mislabeling critiques as attacks, which obscures the legitimate recognition of victims within racial contexts.

3. **Bullying**: The speaker warns against using intimidation or aggressive tactics, which can harm those they're aiming to support.

The speaker advocates for a more nuanced understanding of racial dynamics and emphasizes that all individuals, regardless of race, are ultimately affected by white supremacy in different ways. They call for an ongoing evolution of strategies, focusing on human rights and equitable treatment, while also recognizing the dangerous tendencies that may arise within movements attempting to address racism. Ultimately, the text encourages a compassionate, critical approach to racial justice that prioritizes humanity over divisive tactics.

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Here are some similar articles that discuss themes related to racial justice, diverse perceptions regarding racial issues, and critiques of contemporary movements within this convideo:

1. **"The Limits of Allyship: Navigating Race, Identity, and Activism"** - This article explores how individuals often approach racial justice with varying degrees of understanding and commitment, and critiques the notion of allyship when it becomes performative rather than transformative.

2. **"Decoding Racial Justice: The Need for Nuanced Conversations"** - This piece focuses on the importance of moving beyond binary thinking in racial discussions, emphasizing the need to engage in complex dialogues that acknowledge the multifaceted nature of racial issues.

3. **"Beyond Protests: Sustaining Racial Justice in Everyday Life"** - The author discusses the need for sustained action beyond protests, critiquing the notion that participation in a single event constitutes sufficient engagement and calling for ongoing activism and education.

4. **"Critical Race Theory and Its Role in Modern Activism"** - This article explains the principles of critical race theory and how it can be employed to understand systemic racism, urging readers to incorporate these concepts into their approach to racial justice.

5. **"White Supremacy and the Need for Active Resistance"** - This video highlights the pervasive impact of white supremacy on all individuals, regardless of their racial identity, and calls for active resistance through informed action and solidarity instead of passive awareness.

6. **"Racism and the Problem of Intimidation in Activism"** - This article addresses the harmful effects of aggressive tactics in social movements, advocating for strategies that foster inclusivity and support rather than fear or coercion.

7. **"Evolving Strategies for Racial Justice: A Call to Action"** - The author emphasizes the importance of adapting tactics in the fight against racism, promoting strategies that center on humanity and collective rights rather than divisive binaries.

These articles encapsulate themes of nuanced understanding, critiques of common tactics in activism, and the need for meaningful engagement in the fight for racial justice.

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When people talk about racial justice,

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I think writ large people have different notions,

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but they don't realize that they have different notions.

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It could be as much as I'm reading a book,

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or I'm in a book club learning about race

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for the first time, and they think that's in

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and of itself enough to engage in racial justice.

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Another aspect is someone who's actually engaging in,

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BLM protests and actually getting out in the public

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and doing outcry to raise awareness

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to the anti-black racism happening,

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particularly in the United States, of course, global

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or, the global arena.

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For me, as an academic, I think of it in a different way.

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I think about the, the revolutionary thoughts

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and ideas that we need to produce as scholars to think anew

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so that we can engage in the activism down on the ground

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to really change, the state of white supremacy, which is

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what we're really fighting against.

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Racism is just the symptom.

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And we would, if we're talking biological terms,

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white supremacy would be the actual disease

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that we need to cure.

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Critical race theory and conjunction

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with critical whiteness studies is important

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to do the work that I do.

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Critical race theory, which is often now popularized

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and sexy because of the anti CRT bands

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that happened in the United States,

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which is quite atrocious, might, might I say, is

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that it understands that race

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and racism are endemic, that they are a part of what we need

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to analyze in conjunction with gender analysis,

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class analysis, sexuality.

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So it's not just fixating only on race,

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but it's talking about race should be entered in when we try

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to understand complex social phenomena.

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So that does a great job of understanding

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how racism impacts people of color.

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However, we need to coalesce the idea of

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how it impacts folks of color to what is it

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that is being expressed that then impacts people of color.

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So the use critical whiteness studies becomes a very great

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field of work to draw from in that it fixates on

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how whiteness is expressed, which is oftentimes masked

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and under not understood.

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But I actually deviate a little bit from critical whiteness

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studies in producing what I call a critical study

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of whiteness, in

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that when critical whiteness studies fixates too much on

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white people and their, what I call racial epiphanies

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of understanding race for the first time,

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it becomes overindulgent in that sect.

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So when I think of a critical study of whiteness,

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I'm actually thinking about how is whiteness expressed

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so much so that whether intentional

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or not, it then negatively impacts people of color.

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And when you pair those together, you can see

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how we can really think about how one acts, how one speaks,

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how one engages in life,

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and how it might impact another people.

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And that is what Dave Stawell likes

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to engage in when we talk about

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binding the liberations of each other.

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Because if it's constantly look at, I need to help people

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of color, you're doing nothing more than missionary work

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that doesn't get at the genuine, approaches.

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So when I think of the literature

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that's already been engaged with, with critical race theory,

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we're talking about that which acknowledges racism.

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Racism is happening writ large in the world,

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and how it is felt by people of color.

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When I think about a critical study of whiteness,

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it's really looking at how that connects to

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how power is expressed when we talk about race,

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when the pandemic happened

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and post, Breonna Taylor,

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who at the time I was a professor at University of Kentucky

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and, Michael Brown, I think the

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the global world saw a post-racial awakening.

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A lot of folks were interested in understanding more

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of the dynamics of race.

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They were understanding how,

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black Americans in particular were experiencing,

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anti-black racism.

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In fact, the murders of Asian American women in Georgia,

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just put it on blast that racism is something that is here

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that has been impacting black indigenous people of color,

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whether it's black Americans

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or Asian Americans, albeit differently with specificities.

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Right? And this is not a new phenomenon.

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I think what people started to realize is

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that this actually has been happening in a long time.

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In fact, I just came back from Mammoth Lakes in California

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and driving back down south to Los Angeles, you'll stop

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by Manzanar, which is one of the biggest in turn one

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of next tot one of the bigger, Japanese

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American internment camps,

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concentration camps here in the United States.

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That is a remnant of the type of discrimination

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and racism that doesn't,

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that did not happen at the pandemic,

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but has, it shows a legacy from, yesteryear.

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So I think when we talk about these, these movements, I am

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very proud of the world to at least take

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that initial step to say, race is happening.

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I'm proud. I'm proud they're picking up a book.

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I'm proud they're getting into, groups.

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I'm proud they're getting into workshops.

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I'm very proud of that. It is not about,

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partisan politic politics.

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This is about human rights.

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And if we are to be good human beings,

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the first important step is to understand our humanity

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and all those that are impacted by it.

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However, who with that said, I still can be critical,

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critical enough to say a book is not enough

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and awareness is not enough.

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Action is what makes things happen. And so whether you're

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Making the action, and it doesn't have to be

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organizing an entire BLM movement in your city

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because maybe that's not your skillset if you're an

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introvert, but it can be, okay, I'm educating myself.

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I'm gonna influence the sphere around me.

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In fact, as a pedagogue, I always tell my students, here's

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how you know you're making a difference when you go

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to the dinner table and Uncle Joe's at the dinner table,

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why don't you talk about race?

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I said, that's where you need

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to push the conversations about race.

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And so when I think about these racial justice movements,

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I am happy in the world

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that we're taking a step towards acknowledging,

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but like in the words, in the history of,

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of Australia, recognition of the atrocities done

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to Aborigines are, we are,

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but one step now, how do we rectify that is the second step.

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And I really hope that we continue to do a more just

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and more conscious effort to do that kind of work.

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Now, you did talk about three steps that I, I'm noticing.

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So people are engaging and I'm proud of that.

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But we need to be very, very aware of the type of engagement

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that we, that we involve ourselves in.

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Because if we don't understand the disease so well,

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we may replicate some of those symptoms.

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And I do articulate in the article three tactics that tend

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to, come from whiteness

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and white supremacy that I see happening in racially just

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movements in ways that we're trying to see an end

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to racism, right?

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Which is not the real problem. It's white supremacy.

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We're trying to see an end,

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but at what cost are we going to engage in that?

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And so here I articulate three strategies

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that I often see in racial justice movements that we need

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to sit and think, is this the route we really wanna take in,

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in, in engaging in a humanizing project for racial justice?

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So one tactic I see is the use of binaries.

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The second tactic I often see is,

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reverse victimization.

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And a third tactic I see is a constant use of bullying.

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So these are three tactics

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that are often found in all isms, right?

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The first being binaries.

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When you think of patriarchy, men

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and women, when you think of sexuality,

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you're thinking straight queer.

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When you're thinking of race, you're thinking

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of whites and people of color.

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So the first tactic I see people engaging in racial justice

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work is that of creating binaries.

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You are either with us or you're against us.

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And when we engage in those types of cancel like cultures,

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it really bifurcates the community of how we're doing it.

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Not everyone is on the, on the same trajectory.

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No, let me reverse that.

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People have an idea of justice,

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but they may not be at the same levels.

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Now, I don't believe in this work where people says,

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meet them where they're at.

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I don't believe in that because then if we're constantly

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meeting someone where they're at, we'd stay racist, right?

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It's about pushing. And so I do believe,

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when we create the binaries of you need to be 100%

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with us without any complaint, without any critique,

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I think it really doesn't injustice to the work

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that we're trying to do with racial justice movements.

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So we need to be able to say, hold up.

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Is this the way we wanna engage them versus us?

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Because as educators, our number one job

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is the hope that education is so transformative

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that it would educate the minds

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of even the most racist of individuals.

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If we truly both don't believe that,

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then why are you in education?

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So after binary, another tactic that we see that is,

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is common in whiteness work,

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but we're seeing it infiltrate into racial justice

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movements, is that a reverse victimization.

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And we're constantly seeing this

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and that when we ga engaging binaries, first we start

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to get obscure of who is the perpetrator

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and who is the true victim.

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And so when you get into this reverse victimization,

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if someone doesn't fully, agree, let's say in the,

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of the method that is being used in racial justice,

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perhaps they're just critiquing.

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Maybe they're just taking a pause saying, Hey,

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how about this approach?

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If they're not 100% on board

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and the binary goes into effect, then they're already made.

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Um, they are made into the against them,

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the, the perpetrators.

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So really it obscures

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who the real victims are in racial justice work.

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Because at the end of the day, when this enacts,

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whether you're light skinned

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or dark skinned, the fact that you have melanin,

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it's not gonna protect you in any way, shape

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or form in a white supremacist world.

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So I think it's very important when we think about this

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tactic of reverse discrimination

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or reverse victimization, we think about, Hey,

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when we're engaging in racial justice work, we really need

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to know who the intended, intended audience is this for

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and who are the, the victims of this?

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Because in, in essence, when you think about white supremacy

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as a disease, we are all victims of, of it, albeit

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with differences, right?

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Where one is privileged and one is not just like patriarchy.

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Everyone's impacted by patriarchy, men

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and women, toxic masculinity is assumed by, by men, right?

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Even in in, even if they resist.

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Yet, this is something that impacts both, albeit

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with specificities for women and for men.

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Same with those in a white supremacist world with whites

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and those of people of color.

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So it's really important that we fixate on

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who the real victims are in,

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in the expression of white supremacy.

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And the third tactic that really goes on,

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which is, is that a bullying?

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You know, it goes back to, you know,

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the school, the school yard.

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When we're watching bullying tactics

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and one, we just allow it to manifest and say nothing,

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or two, it's a matter of acquiescing, right?

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And this bullying can form as, Australian

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researchers have said in this horizontal violence

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where you're actually attacking the very people

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that you hope to be helping, right?

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And we see that happen in these tactics of racial justice

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that are imbued with whiteness.

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So oftentimes when racial justice work, we're so impassioned

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with the work that we wanna do to, to eliminate the process

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of racism, but at the same time,

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we're overlooking at the bullying tactics

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that we may be engaging on other people

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to join this movement.

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So we really need to stop

12:55.945 --> 13:00.085
and think, does this adhere to the humanizing qualities

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of movements and justice that I so seek?

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Or am I actually becoming the thing that I most detest?

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And, and so these three tactics tend to infiltrate,

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movements of racial justice

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and victories may be had,

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it may be folks have called whites in racial justice work,

13:21.035 --> 13:24.715
white allies, I think in bettina's love work, she's,

13:25.145 --> 13:26.475
took that white allies

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and made it a little bit more nuanced by talking about

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what is it to be a co-conspirator, right?

13:32.975 --> 13:36.395
In a sense that you are conspiring, I know often

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negatively associated, but reclaiming

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and reappropriating that terminology

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and re rethinking co-conspirator co conspiracy

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against something that is

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negative in the first place, right?

13:52.575 --> 13:55.835
And so I guess a double negative makes a positive, right?

13:57.255 --> 13:59.915
In that sense. But, when we're thinking about

13:59.915 --> 14:02.755
how whiteness infiltrates racial justice

14:03.135 --> 14:05.275
and preventing whites to see that harm,

14:06.225 --> 14:07.355
this is very particular

14:07.355 --> 14:10.075
because whiteness, as Charles Mills has

14:10.075 --> 14:12.115
so beautifully written in his works

14:12.495 --> 14:16.745
and his body of scholarship, God, God bless his soul, is

14:16.745 --> 14:20.535
to understand that whiteness is both visible and invisible.

14:20.995 --> 14:23.895
So it becomes hyper visible for people, I guess in,

14:23.955 --> 14:27.855
in a du Bois sense, in that you can really see

14:28.395 --> 14:29.495
the mechanisms of

14:29.515 --> 14:33.135
how whiteness is being exerted at the same only if you have

14:33.135 --> 14:35.895
the veil, but in the same mechanism,

14:36.035 --> 14:37.295
it is also super invisible.

14:37.535 --> 14:38.695
'cause when you engage in it,

14:38.875 --> 14:42.455
people act like whiteness is not the natural state

14:42.455 --> 14:45.575
of things, when in fact whiteness is not

14:45.795 --> 14:47.015
the natural state of things.

14:47.075 --> 14:48.535
And I just wanna pause a minute

14:48.535 --> 14:50.895
because people are like, what are you talking about here?

14:51.745 --> 14:53.485
And so when I travel worldwide,

14:53.765 --> 14:55.725
I often have a asked where am I from?

14:56.365 --> 14:59.285
I understand the question I respond with, I'm born,

14:59.545 --> 15:00.605
I'm from Los Angeles.

15:01.705 --> 15:03.925
And when people look at me, they're seeing

15:03.925 --> 15:06.445
that Los Angeles is in the United States of America,

15:06.945 --> 15:08.965
and they make this racial assumption

15:08.995 --> 15:11.845
that people in America should look white,

15:12.235 --> 15:13.885
have white racial phenotypes.

15:14.265 --> 15:17.085
So because I don't have that, they automatically assume

15:17.145 --> 15:19.925
and ask the next question that I'm often asked, which is,

15:20.465 --> 15:22.845
no, where are you really from?

15:23.345 --> 15:25.925
As if I cannot be from America, which is strange

15:26.125 --> 15:29.685
'cause I probably have the racial phenotypes more than

15:29.685 --> 15:33.725
native indigenous people in Americas than than whites.

15:34.425 --> 15:36.485
But I understand what's happening here.

15:37.145 --> 15:38.965
The naturalness is to assume

15:38.965 --> 15:41.525
that if you don't have the phenotypes of whites,

15:41.675 --> 15:43.205
that you cannot be from here.

15:44.845 --> 15:48.025
But here's the funny thing of how whiteness works in its na,

15:48.085 --> 15:51.265
in its seeming natural state, when I push back

15:51.265 --> 15:52.945
and I say, no, where are you from?

15:53.645 --> 15:55.745
And they respond with, I'm from Ohio.

15:56.565 --> 16:00.185
And I say, no, no, no, no, no. Where are you really from?

16:00.325 --> 16:02.465
Why do you speak English so well? Are you from Ireland?

16:03.375 --> 16:07.025
Just switch it around. They laugh.

16:07.115 --> 16:09.065
Their reaction is to laugh.

16:09.085 --> 16:10.465
And the reason we laugh is

16:10.465 --> 16:12.305
because it's almost absurd, right?

16:12.685 --> 16:13.745
And that's how, you know,

16:13.815 --> 16:16.345
whiteness works in a unidirectional manner

16:16.695 --> 16:20.505
that almost presumes it's natural state of things when,

16:20.595 --> 16:23.625
let's be honest, it's been manufactured in such a way

16:24.375 --> 16:28.265
used in operated with power such that now we laugh

16:28.845 --> 16:31.615
because it's never been said to us in that way.

16:32.165 --> 16:33.495
It's never been pushed back.

16:34.075 --> 16:37.855
The same mechanisms being used on me with racial phenotypes,

16:38.375 --> 16:39.975
I cannot do it back to them.

16:40.315 --> 16:44.695
So when we talk about whites, and their, their inability

16:44.955 --> 16:47.215
and the enactments that they might engage in whiteness,

16:47.565 --> 16:49.575
it's oftentimes, and I think we need

16:49.575 --> 16:52.495
to really remove ourself from movies like American History

16:52.655 --> 16:55.375
X, where it's blatant racism, right?

16:55.995 --> 16:59.415
Um, in fact, there's been studies done with neo-Nazis

16:59.435 --> 17:01.415
who say they're not, they don't believe they're racist,

17:01.525 --> 17:03.455
they just believe whites are superior.

17:04.065 --> 17:07.575
Which goes to show you that the, it's become the definition

17:07.575 --> 17:08.935
of who is a racist

17:09.555 --> 17:13.215
or what racism, racism truly is, becomes

17:13.315 --> 17:14.895
so obscured, right?

17:15.865 --> 17:17.685
So it becomes really important to rethink

17:18.025 --> 17:21.645
how do we operate in ways that, in that

17:22.185 --> 17:26.285
racist ideology, even when we don't intend to do so,

17:26.475 --> 17:30.965
because it operates in its normalcy, we now have to make

17:31.035 --> 17:32.405
that abnormal.

17:32.865 --> 17:34.845
And so when we're thinking about why it's, you know,

17:34.845 --> 17:36.245
infiltrating racial justice,

17:36.435 --> 17:39.085
it's about sometimes being uncomfortable

17:39.205 --> 17:42.725
because the normal comfort of things have been to always

17:43.475 --> 17:47.445
placate the white emotion implications is just

17:47.445 --> 17:48.765
to get in a more, just

17:48.825 --> 17:50.685
In a more genuine approach to racism.

17:51.265 --> 17:53.605
Now, when we think about the literature on critical race

17:53.605 --> 17:55.725
theory, Derek Bell himself had talked

17:55.725 --> 17:56.845
about the permanence of racism.

17:57.445 --> 17:59.045
I don't wanna be approached

17:59.045 --> 18:01.405
that in a nihilistic type of way.

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I do understand that race

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and racism will always mutate, right?

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But it's always to be cognizant of it

18:08.825 --> 18:12.765
and not to focus so much on, according to Derek Bell

18:13.105 --> 18:15.925
and his work in, in the story Afro Lanica.

18:16.225 --> 18:19.685
Not always about the demise and the atrocities to people,

18:19.785 --> 18:22.165
but also the survival, the hope

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and the humanity of how we survive it all.

18:25.065 --> 18:28.285
And so I think when we're thinking about the future research

18:28.505 --> 18:32.245
and what can come out of this, it's really always, always

18:32.885 --> 18:34.415
looking at looking

18:34.445 --> 18:37.735
with a critical eye on the wor on the actions and the words

18:37.795 --> 18:39.495
and the discourse patterns we use,

18:39.955 --> 18:43.295
and constantly thinking how can we and better ourself.

18:43.755 --> 18:48.255
20 years ago, maybe even 30 years ago, the use

18:48.255 --> 18:50.615
of the word black Americans was not acceptable.

18:51.035 --> 18:53.775
But the reclamation of what it means to be black

18:53.795 --> 18:56.895
and have black love and black beauty has been done.

18:57.315 --> 19:00.855
And so we have to advance our vocabulary, our tactics,

19:01.315 --> 19:05.175
our own movements so that we can tr stay true to

19:05.175 --> 19:06.335
that which brings us together.

19:06.395 --> 19:07.495
And that is our humanity.

00:00 - When people talk about racial justice, I think writ large people have different notions, but they don't realize that they have different notions. It could be as much as I'm reading a book, or I'm in a book club learning about race for the first time, and they think that's in

00:13 - and of itself enough to engage in racial justice. Another aspect is someone who's actually engaging in, BLM protests and actually getting out in the public and doing outcry to raise awareness to the anti-black racism happening, particularly in the United States, of course, global or, the global arena. For me, as an academic, I think of it in a different way. I think about the, the revolutionary thoughts and ideas that we need to produce as scholars to think anew

00:43 - so that we can engage in the activism down on the ground to really change, the state of white supremacy, which is what we're really fighting against. Racism is just the symptom. And we would, if we're talking biological terms, white supremacy would be the actual disease that we need to cure. Critical race theory and conjunction with critical whiteness studies is important to do the work that I do.

01:11 - Critical race theory, which is often now popularized and sexy because of the anti CRT bands that happened in the United States, which is quite atrocious, might, might I say, is that it understands that race and racism are endemic, that they are a part of what we need to analyze in conjunction with gender analysis, class analysis, sexuality. So it's not just fixating only on race, but it's talking about race should be entered in when we try

01:45 - to understand complex social phenomena. So that does a great job of understanding how racism impacts people of color. However, we need to coalesce the idea of how it impacts folks of color to what is it that is being expressed that then impacts people of color. So the use critical whiteness studies becomes a very great field of work to draw from in that it fixates on how whiteness is expressed, which is oftentimes masked and under not understood.

02:17 - But I actually deviate a little bit from critical whiteness studies in producing what I call a critical study of whiteness, in that when critical whiteness studies fixates too much on white people and their, what I call racial epiphanies of understanding race for the first time, it becomes overindulgent in that sect. So when I think of a critical study of whiteness, I'm actually thinking about how is whiteness expressed so much so that whether intentional

02:49 - or not, it then negatively impacts people of color. And when you pair those together, you can see how we can really think about how one acts, how one speaks, how one engages in life, and how it might impact another people. And that is what Dave Stawell likes to engage in when we talk about binding the liberations of each other. Because if it's constantly look at, I need to help people of color, you're doing nothing more than missionary work

03:18 - that doesn't get at the genuine, approaches. So when I think of the literature that's already been engaged with, with critical race theory, we're talking about that which acknowledges racism. Racism is happening writ large in the world, and how it is felt by people of color. When I think about a critical study of whiteness, it's really looking at how that connects to how power is expressed when we talk about race, when the pandemic happened

03:47 - and post, Breonna Taylor, who at the time I was a professor at University of Kentucky and, Michael Brown, I think the the global world saw a post-racial awakening. A lot of folks were interested in understanding more of the dynamics of race. They were understanding how, black Americans in particular were experiencing, anti-black racism. In fact, the murders of Asian American women in Georgia,

04:18 - just put it on blast that racism is something that is here that has been impacting black indigenous people of color, whether it's black Americans or Asian Americans, albeit differently with specificities. Right? And this is not a new phenomenon. I think what people started to realize is that this actually has been happening in a long time. In fact, I just came back from Mammoth Lakes in California and driving back down south to Los Angeles, you'll stop by Manzanar, which is one of the biggest in turn one

04:48 - of next tot one of the bigger, Japanese American internment camps, concentration camps here in the United States. That is a remnant of the type of discrimination and racism that doesn't, that did not happen at the pandemic, but has, it shows a legacy from, yesteryear. So I think when we talk about these, these movements, I am very proud of the world to at least take that initial step to say, race is happening.

05:19 - I'm proud. I'm proud they're picking up a book. I'm proud they're getting into, groups. I'm proud they're getting into workshops. I'm very proud of that. It is not about, partisan politic politics. This is about human rights. And if we are to be good human beings, the first important step is to understand our humanity and all those that are impacted by it. However, who with that said, I still can be critical,

05:48 - critical enough to say a book is not enough and awareness is not enough. Action is what makes things happen. And so whether you're Making the action, and it doesn't have to be organizing an entire BLM movement in your city because maybe that's not your skillset if you're an introvert, but it can be, okay, I'm educating myself. I'm gonna influence the sphere around me. In fact, as a pedagogue, I always tell my students, here's how you know you're making a difference when you go

06:19 - to the dinner table and Uncle Joe's at the dinner table, why don't you talk about race? I said, that's where you need to push the conversations about race. And so when I think about these racial justice movements, I am happy in the world that we're taking a step towards acknowledging, but like in the words, in the history of, of Australia, recognition of the atrocities done to Aborigines are, we are,

06:47 - but one step now, how do we rectify that is the second step. And I really hope that we continue to do a more just and more conscious effort to do that kind of work. Now, you did talk about three steps that I, I'm noticing. So people are engaging and I'm proud of that. But we need to be very, very aware of the type of engagement that we, that we involve ourselves in. Because if we don't understand the disease so well, we may replicate some of those symptoms. And I do articulate in the article three tactics that tend

07:25 - to, come from whiteness and white supremacy that I see happening in racially just movements in ways that we're trying to see an end to racism, right? Which is not the real problem. It's white supremacy. We're trying to see an end, but at what cost are we going to engage in that? And so here I articulate three strategies that I often see in racial justice movements that we need to sit and think, is this the route we really wanna take in,

07:56 - in, in engaging in a humanizing project for racial justice? So one tactic I see is the use of binaries. The second tactic I often see is, reverse victimization. And a third tactic I see is a constant use of bullying. So these are three tactics that are often found in all isms, right? The first being binaries. When you think of patriarchy, men and women, when you think of sexuality,

08:26 - you're thinking straight queer. When you're thinking of race, you're thinking of whites and people of color. So the first tactic I see people engaging in racial justice work is that of creating binaries. You are either with us or you're against us. And when we engage in those types of cancel like cultures, it really bifurcates the community of how we're doing it. Not everyone is on the, on the same trajectory. No, let me reverse that.

08:55 - People have an idea of justice, but they may not be at the same levels. Now, I don't believe in this work where people says, meet them where they're at. I don't believe in that because then if we're constantly meeting someone where they're at, we'd stay racist, right? It's about pushing. And so I do believe, when we create the binaries of you need to be 100% with us without any complaint, without any critique, I think it really doesn't injustice to the work

09:25 - that we're trying to do with racial justice movements. So we need to be able to say, hold up. Is this the way we wanna engage them versus us? Because as educators, our number one job is the hope that education is so transformative that it would educate the minds of even the most racist of individuals. If we truly both don't believe that, then why are you in education? So after binary, another tactic that we see that is,

09:55 - is common in whiteness work, but we're seeing it infiltrate into racial justice movements, is that a reverse victimization. And we're constantly seeing this and that when we ga engaging binaries, first we start to get obscure of who is the perpetrator and who is the true victim. And so when you get into this reverse victimization, if someone doesn't fully, agree, let's say in the, of the method that is being used in racial justice,

10:25 - perhaps they're just critiquing. Maybe they're just taking a pause saying, Hey, how about this approach? If they're not 100% on board and the binary goes into effect, then they're already made. they are made into the against them, the, the perpetrators. So really it obscures who the real victims are in racial justice work. Because at the end of the day, when this enacts,

10:49 - whether you're light skinned or dark skinned, the fact that you have melanin, it's not gonna protect you in any way, shape or form in a white supremacist world. So I think it's very important when we think about this tactic of reverse discrimination or reverse victimization, we think about, Hey, when we're engaging in racial justice work, we really need to know who the intended, intended audience is this for and who are the, the victims of this?

11:18 - Because in, in essence, when you think about white supremacy as a disease, we are all victims of, of it, albeit with differences, right? Where one is privileged and one is not just like patriarchy. Everyone's impacted by patriarchy, men and women, toxic masculinity is assumed by, by men, right? Even in in, even if they resist. Yet, this is something that impacts both, albeit with specificities for women and for men. Same with those in a white supremacist world with whites

11:52 - and those of people of color. So it's really important that we fixate on who the real victims are in, in the expression of white supremacy. And the third tactic that really goes on, which is, is that a bullying? You know, it goes back to, you know, the school, the school yard. When we're watching bullying tactics and one, we just allow it to manifest and say nothing,

12:16 - or two, it's a matter of acquiescing, right? And this bullying can form as, Australian researchers have said in this horizontal violence where you're actually attacking the very people that you hope to be helping, right? And we see that happen in these tactics of racial justice that are imbued with whiteness. So oftentimes when racial justice work, we're so impassioned with the work that we wanna do to, to eliminate the process of racism, but at the same time,

12:47 - we're overlooking at the bullying tactics that we may be engaging on other people to join this movement. So we really need to stop and think, does this adhere to the humanizing qualities of movements and justice that I so seek? Or am I actually becoming the thing that I most detest? And, and so these three tactics tend to infiltrate, movements of racial justice and victories may be had,

13:17 - it may be folks have called whites in racial justice work, white allies, I think in bettina's love work, she's, took that white allies and made it a little bit more nuanced by talking about what is it to be a co-conspirator, right? In a sense that you are conspiring, I know often negatively associated, but reclaiming and reappropriating that terminology and re rethinking co-conspirator co conspiracy against something that is

13:50 - negative in the first place, right? And so I guess a double negative makes a positive, right? In that sense. But, when we're thinking about how whiteness infiltrates racial justice and preventing whites to see that harm, this is very particular because whiteness, as Charles Mills has so beautifully written in his works and his body of scholarship, God, God bless his soul, is to understand that whiteness is both visible and invisible.

14:20 - So it becomes hyper visible for people, I guess in, in a du Bois sense, in that you can really see the mechanisms of how whiteness is being exerted at the same only if you have the veil, but in the same mechanism, it is also super invisible. 'cause when you engage in it, people act like whiteness is not the natural state of things, when in fact whiteness is not the natural state of things.

14:47 - And I just wanna pause a minute because people are like, what are you talking about here? And so when I travel worldwide, I often have a asked where am I from? I understand the question I respond with, I'm born, I'm from Los Angeles. And when people look at me, they're seeing that Los Angeles is in the United States of America, and they make this racial assumption that people in America should look white,

15:12 - have white racial phenotypes. So because I don't have that, they automatically assume and ask the next question that I'm often asked, which is, no, where are you really from? As if I cannot be from America, which is strange 'cause I probably have the racial phenotypes more than native indigenous people in Americas than than whites. But I understand what's happening here. The naturalness is to assume that if you don't have the phenotypes of whites,

15:41 - that you cannot be from here. But here's the funny thing of how whiteness works in its na, in its seeming natural state, when I push back and I say, no, where are you from? And they respond with, I'm from Ohio. And I say, no, no, no, no, no. Where are you really from? Why do you speak English so well? Are you from Ireland? Just switch it around. They laugh. Their reaction is to laugh. And the reason we laugh is

16:10 - because it's almost absurd, right? And that's how, you know, whiteness works in a unidirectional manner that almost presumes it's natural state of things when, let's be honest, it's been manufactured in such a way used in operated with power such that now we laugh because it's never been said to us in that way. It's never been pushed back. The same mechanisms being used on me with racial phenotypes, I cannot do it back to them.

16:40 - So when we talk about whites, and their, their inability and the enactments that they might engage in whiteness, it's oftentimes, and I think we need to really remove ourself from movies like American History X, where it's blatant racism, right? in fact, there's been studies done with neo-Nazis who say they're not, they don't believe they're racist, they just believe whites are superior. Which goes to show you that the, it's become the definition of who is a racist

17:09 - or what racism, racism truly is, becomes so obscured, right? So it becomes really important to rethink how do we operate in ways that, in that racist ideology, even when we don't intend to do so, because it operates in its normalcy, we now have to make that abnormal. And so when we're thinking about why it's, you know, infiltrating racial justice, it's about sometimes being uncomfortable

17:39 - because the normal comfort of things have been to always placate the white emotion implications is just to get in a more, just In a more genuine approach to racism. Now, when we think about the literature on critical race theory, Derek Bell himself had talked about the permanence of racism. I don't wanna be approached that in a nihilistic type of way. I do understand that race

18:03 - and racism will always mutate, right? But it's always to be cognizant of it and not to focus so much on, according to Derek Bell and his work in, in the story Afro Lanica. Not always about the demise and the atrocities to people, but also the survival, the hope and the humanity of how we survive it all. And so I think when we're thinking about the future research and what can come out of this, it's really always, always looking at looking

18:34 - with a critical eye on the wor on the actions and the words and the discourse patterns we use, and constantly thinking how can we and better ourself. 20 years ago, maybe even 30 years ago, the use of the word black Americans was not acceptable. But the reclamation of what it means to be black and have black love and black beauty has been done. And so we have to advance our vocabulary, our tactics, our own movements so that we can tr stay true to that which brings us together.

19:06 - And that is our humanity.

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