To Be a Jewish State

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Yaacov Yadgar delves into what the designation “Jewish” amounts to in the context of the sovereign nation-state, and what it means for the politics of the state to be identified as Jewish.

Image courtesy of interviewee. September 11, 2024

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The speaker discusses their research focusing on the complexities of Jewish nationalism in Israel, particularly the meaning of Israel as a "Jewish state." They explore two main perspectives in the discourse around Israel's identity: one that views it as merely a state for Jews, based on its demographic majority, and another that emphasizes its constitutional expectation to align with Jewish traditions and values.

The speaker critiques the oversimplified notion of Zionism as a secularization of Judaism, suggesting instead that the relationship between the two can be better understood through the concept of supersessionism, a Christian theological term that describes the idea of one belief system replacing or claiming the authentic essence of another. They argue that Zionism, while establishing a Jewish national identity, simultaneously grapples with Jewish religious traditions.

The speaker emphasizes the historical context and ongoing debates related to Israel's identity, including the controversial 2018 law declaring Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people, and suggests that understanding these dynamics is crucial for comprehending contemporary Israeli politics and identity. They advocate for a re-examination of how Jewish and Israeli identity can embrace diversity, rather than conforming to the uniformity often sought by nationalism.

The speaker concludes by highlighting the importance of recognizing the multifaceted nature of Jewish identity and culture in discussions about nationalism and the Israeli polity, aiming to stimulate further reflection on these critical issues.

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Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Understanding Jewish Nationalism**: The speaker is focused on exploring the complex meanings and implications of Israel’s identity as a Jewish state. There is a recognition of the dual narratives that enable a better comprehension of Israel's Jewish claim, as well as the tensions surrounding it.

2. **Two Contrasting Views**: The speaker discusses two primary interpretations of Israel's Jewish identity: one that views it simply as a state for Jews, where Jewish majority sufficiency suffices; and another that emphasizes the need for a connection with Jewish traditions and values, suggesting that Israel’s identity involves a constitutional and cultural expectation of Jewish heritage.

3. **Zionism and Judaism**: The relationship between Zionism and Judaism is framed as complex. Zionism is described as a secular manifestation of Jewish identity that sometimes rebels against traditional religious interpretations, while still being reliant on Jewish history and values.

4. **The Concept of Supersessionism**: The speaker introduces the idea of viewing the relationship between Zionism and Judaism through the lens of supersessionism—a concept borrowed from Christian theology—suggesting that Zionism may act as a replacement or reinterpretation of traditional Jewish identity and practice.

5. **Political Theology in Israel**: The speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding the political theology surrounding the Israeli nation-state. They argue that contemporary debates about Israeli identity and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are deeply rooted in historical and theological questions, indicating that the dynamics of nationalism in Israel are distinct but also reflective of broader historical patterns seen in other nation-states. Additionally, they call for recognizing the diversity of Jewish identities and traditions that nationalism often ignores or homogenizes.

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Here are some key quotes extracted from the video you , which discuss themes related to Jewish nationalism, the identity of Israel, and the relationship between Zionism and Judaism:

1. **Jewish Nationalism and Identity:**
- "Most of my, uh, other contemporary work, which deals with the questions of, uh, you know, the meaning of Jewish nationalism in Israel."
- "This puzzle that, uh, has always kind of shadowed my consideration of Israel and my identity as an Israeli citizen."

2. **Jewish State Concept:**
- "To differentiate the Jewishness of the state of Israel between two outlooks... is helpful."
- "One story would be that Israel is... simply a state for Jews, the Jews state."

3. **On the Nature of the Jewish State:**
- "The Jewish state would be a rather straightforward application of the notion of... a state that is based on the sovereignty of a certain national or ethnic group."
- "All that the state would need to do is to have a Jewish majority."

4. **Zionism and Judaism:**
- "Zionism identifies as a national Jewish national movement... with the task of... giving political self-determination to the people that is determined by just Jewish history."
- "Zionism stands as vehemently rebelling against this tradition."

5. **Supersessionism Concept:**
- "One possibly fruitful way of understanding this relationship between Zionism and Judaism is to view it as one of supersessionism."
- "The church says itself is the authentic, the authentic sense of that which is replaced or put aside."

6. **Critique of Nationalism:**
- "I find the Israeli and Jewish case to offer us an additional perspective of seeing how nationalism erases the diversity of the ingroup."
- "The main political project of the newly established state of Israel was a melting pot project."

7. **Call for Reconsideration:**
- "This is a call for reconsidering the relationship between Zionism and Judaism, which has some obvious political implications."
- "If my work manages to encourage... readers and writers to develop this, I would be very happy."

These quotes highlight the central themes of the video, focusing on the complexities of Jewish identity, the nature of the Israeli state, and the ideological underpinnings of Zionism.

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Here are some similar articles that explore themes related to Jewish nationalism, the identity of Israel as a Jewish state, and the complexities of Jewish identity within the convideo of nationalism:

1. **"Zionism and Its Discontents: The Complexities of Jewish National Identity"** - This article delves into the historical and ideological foundations of Zionism, examining how different factions within the movement interpret the relationship between Jewish identity and the state of Israel.

2. **"The Nation-State Law of 2018: Implications for Israeli Identity and Democracy"** - This piece discusses the controversial 2018 Nation-State Law in Israel, analyzing its impact on the country's identity politics and the implications for Arab citizens and non-Jewish identities within the Jewish state.

3. **"Supersessionism and Jewish Identity: Rethinking Historical Narratives"** - An exploration of the concept of supersessionism within Jewish discourse, this article assesses how historical understandings of Judaism and Jewish identity have evolved in the convideo of both Christian and Zionist ideologies.

4. **"Cultural Pluralism in Israel: Jewish Identity and Nationalism"** - This article examines how diverse expressions of Jewish identity—religious, secular, and cultural—intersect with Israeli nationalism, advocating for an inclusive approach that recognizes multiple identities within the Jewish experience.

5. **"The Role of Religion in Israeli Society: A Jewish State?"** - This piece analyzes the role of Jewish religious traditions in shaping the identity of Israel as a Jewish state, addressing the tension between secular and religious interpretations of Jewish nationalism.

6. **"Redefining Jewish Identity in a Globalized World: Challenges and Opportunities"** - This article looks at the evolution of Jewish identity in the convideo of globalization, considering how contemporary discussions about Jewish nationalism in Israel can reflect broader trends of diversity and multiculturalism.

Each of these articles provides insights into the complex discussions surrounding Jewish nationalism, identity, and the relationship of these themes to the socio-political landscape of Israel.

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Most of my, other contemporary work, which deals

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with the questions of, you know, the meaning

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of Jewish nationalism in Israel.

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Uh, the motivation is really this puzzle that,

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has always kind of shadowed my consideration of Israel

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and my identity as an Israeli citizen, Israeli born,

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person, which is the meaning of Israel's Jewish claim.

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Uh, there's always, a sense of attention surrounding it,

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and I've been trying time and again, to come

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and, you know, better understanding

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that then maybe offer a better understanding to my audience,

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my readers, about what seems

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to me the most fundamental issue of the Israeli polity.

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We often say in English as a, almost as a synonym

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for the name of the state of Israel, the Jewish state,

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and we assume that it's clear what, you know,

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both the speaker

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and the audience assume that they have a

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very clear sense of what it means.

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And this is actually, as far as I can, see this one

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of the most muddled concepts,

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and to differentiate the Jewishness of the state of Israel

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between two outlooks, two, two narratives of

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what the state is about and

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where it should go, is helpful.

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And I think these two, outlooks do dominate some parts

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of the discourse

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or the, you know, the speakers in Israel and outside of it.

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So, one story would be that Israel is,

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simply a state for Jews, the Jews state.

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Now, both terms can be comfortably be translated from,

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Herz theater, Hertz's famous, plan,

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or again, how would say prescriptions

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for a Jewish polity, the, the,

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so it could be the Jewish state or the Jewish state.

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The Jewish state would be a rather straightforward

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application of the notion of, a state that is

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based on the sovereignty

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of a certain national or ethnic group.

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And that's it, meaning that there would be no,

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prescription of what we would usually call traditional

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religious, or similarly, how would they say,

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emanating from the past values,

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practices, expectations from the polity.

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All that the state would need to do is

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to have a Jewish majority.

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And this is not that simple, given that Israel is based on,

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you know, is, is Israel given

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that Israel is in a, again, a fundamental way,

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collection of diasporas

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of Jews coming from all over the world.

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And, it is obviously, established on a land

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that was previously, occupied by, by people

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who are not members of this, nation.

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To put this, you know, conflict in mild terms,

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the Jewish state

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Outlook, on the other hand, would say that Israel is,

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the polity itself is expected constitutionally.

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So to have some correspondence to

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what we would call tradition religion, maybe a,

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you know, a baggage of values carried from the past that,

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well, most participants in the discourse would agree,

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are part of Jewish religion.

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Uh, it doesn't mean that the state has to be a theology,

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sorry, a, a theocracy

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or that it has to, that it has to be,

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you know, a religious state.

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But it would present an expectation from the polity

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to have some correspondence with these, values of Jewish

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life as they were exercised in the past

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and developed in the various venues were, you know,

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tradition is developed.

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So just to give a, you know, an obvious case, we would,

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would ask, what is the nature

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of a Jewish economy in a Jewish state?

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While the Jewish state outlook would say,

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this is all irrelevant, as the Jews would make

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of the state whatever they want, as long

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as they are the majority.

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And, and I, I think that this, this distinction

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between the two outlooks can help us understand some

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of the historical

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and contemporary debates in Israel surrounding Jewish

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and Zionist nationalism.

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Well, my research is based, mostly

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what I do is interpretive political studies

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or sociopolitical study, which means that I,

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I read publicly available sources, either, you know,

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historical writings of Zionist ideologues, kind of returning

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to some of, the better known

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and lesser known works of people who have shaped

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Zionist ideology,

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but also, attending to public debates

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as they are, have been taking place on various platforms.

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But reading them sometimes against the grain,

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sometimes a little bit deeper, sometimes, you know,

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allowing the speakers to maybe say out loud

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what they have not necessarily thought through,

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fully thought, thought through.

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So, to give one example, some

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of my work is based on an analysis

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of the public debate surrounding this controversial 2018

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law, basic law Israel,

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the designate Israel is the nation

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state of the Jewish people.

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Um, since its passing in 2018, a lot

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of public debate has been, taken place both

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inside and outside of Israel.

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And there were, almost 10 years

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of discussions in the Israeli public sphere about it

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before it was passed as the law.

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So there's a lot of material to work with.

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And, you know, in the 24 hours news cycle mindset,

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we sometimes forget

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that there's a history to this discourse.

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And, most of my, you know,

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attempted understanding political reality

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is based on such analysis of the, of the discourse,

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of the political discourse we all well sharing in some form

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of one way or another, the question of Zionism

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as an ideology, as a movement, as a, as an enterprise

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that was successful in creating a state that is to this day,

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identifying through the ideology of Zionism.

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The relationship between this

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and Jewish history at large is one of the

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greatest puzzles of Jewish history

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and obviously of, of, of the Israeli, history.

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Um, this is, so for several reasons, maybe the most obvious

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of which is that Zionism identifies

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as a national Jewish national movement.

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It identifies itself with the task of,

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giving political self-determination to the people

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that is determined by just Jewish history.

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And at the same time, at the same breath,

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on the same breath, Zionism as, the mainstream

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of Zionism rebels against sees itself

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as rebelling against vehemently rebelling against this

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tradition, this, what it would call religion,

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even some aspects of this, of this nationality,

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of this national identity, where Zionism

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to simply view itself

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as a continuation in the historical development

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and flow of Judaism as some modern religious,

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movements have done, that would be less of a problem.

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Now, a common answer to this question of, so

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what is Zionism's relation to, to, Judaism is to say

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that Zionism is a secularization of, of Judaism,

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that we have Judaism as a religion before,

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and then something happens in Europe, enlightenment,

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first Renaissance and Enlightenment and so forth.

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And then we, we end up with secularization,

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which in the Jewish case is politicized

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or gains political expression in the form

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of Jewish nationalism.

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But this is, how would they call, far satisfying,

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explanation to this relations.

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Uh, for one thing, it's not clear

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what this secularization means.

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Um, Zionism is not able,

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or never wanted really to do away with Jewish religion.

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It relies on Jewish religion in some fundamental manners.

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Secondly, when you consider, what I would, you know,

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label under political theology, which is the playing out

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of politics as a substitute for traditional theology,

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it's, it, it's even less clear

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what secular, what secular about it.

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If we worship the state instead of God, I can understand

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that, you know, that competing data is here,

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but it's still worship.

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It's not, you know, it's still religious worship.

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So what I, what I realized

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and, tried to convey

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In my, in the book is that one

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possibly fruitful way of understanding this relationship

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between Zionism and,

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and Judaism is to view it as one of supersessionism.

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Now, supersessionism is a Christian concept.

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It basically tells a story

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of the Christian Church having either replaced

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or in effect, more important, not even replaced,

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but actually reclaimed its authentic place

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as the real Israel, that as in the people of Israel, the,

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the Biblical Israel, the church.

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Uh, this is a well developed concept

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and very well debated concept within

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Christian theological circles.

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Um, often it is, also referred to

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as replacement theology.

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The, the, again, the story

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that the church replaces the Israel

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as the Covenanted people, party.

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So the, the party that took the, the role of being

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God's chosen people,

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or the God God's chosen, it's more than a people.

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Uh, but again, replacement theology is a bit of a misnomer

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because there's no necessarily a replacement taking place.

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The church says itself is the authentic, the authentic,

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the real, sense of Judaism.

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Now in Christian contexts, this is,

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even in Christian context, this is a very highly debated

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and problematic notion.

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It has antisemitism kind of, you know,

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saw into this, into it.

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Uh, so I, I don't wanna, you know, make this direct,

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illusion that Zionism is Christianity,

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God forbid this is not what I'm saying.

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What I'm saying is that this relationship of viewing oneself

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as having either replaced

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or actually, manifesting a reincarnation

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of the authentic sense of that which is replaced

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or put aside,

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does help us understand a lot about the Zionist relation

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to Judaism at some parts

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of the Zionist ideological discourse.

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This is almost a given. It's obvious.

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Some Zionists Ideolog speak, speak kind of,

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how do I say it?

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Uh, they, they celebrate, they, they,

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they speak very explicitly about having Zionism

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or making Zionism into a religion that

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uproot Judaism and replaces it.

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But then it is a Jewish religion.

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It's a Jewish national religion.

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When it comes to, contemporary Israeli, culture,

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it's fascinating to see expressions of anxiety,

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a replacement anxiety in a sense that the fear

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that a volcanic power

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of Judaism would erupt from under this, facade

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of modern Jewish national identity, which I ident, I,

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I understand is an expression of this, fear of the,

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you know, the supers side.

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Uh, but mostly I think this is, and

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I hope it comes out in, in the book, properly,

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this is a call for reconsidering the relationship

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between Zionism and Judaism,

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which has some obvious political implications.

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First of all, I think the, the, the end

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of your question is, is essential.

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Uh, I, I stress,

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and I, you know, I go to great lengths of saying

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that while my work is immediately focused on the Israeli

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nation state, on Israeli nation, sta is, I would say,

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on a, on a federal, well,

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on a basically very important level, there's nothing unique

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about the Israeli case.

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This is the political theology of the nation state,

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the more a nation state as

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it has developed in Europe since the 17th century, at least,

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the playing out of this script in the Israeli case.

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Now, what obviously is unique about it is

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that the Israelis are this case, speak Jewishly.

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They speak directly to Jewish tradition

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and Jewish history, while other nation states don't,

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they don't, even if they proclaim to be, you know,

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the chosen people or like,

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or, you know, even if they have this national theological,

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sense that is derived from the new, the Christian,

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new New Testament, as in some, you know,

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nationalism in the US for example, do they still don't speak

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as a Jewish nation state?

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Israel is the only one that does that, which brings

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to life this fascinating Jewish dilemma.

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So if you ask me about, direct implication

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to daily politics, I would be hesitant

13:25.525 --> 13:27.145
to answer this explicitly,

13:27.145 --> 13:30.425
because it is always, dangerous to draw

13:31.045 --> 13:35.065
direct lines from, the infrastructure of our, our,

13:35.685 --> 13:38.985
you know, being in the world to immediate actions that this

13:38.985 --> 13:41.625
or that political party or political personas

13:41.685 --> 13:44.745
or, participant in the,

13:45.325 --> 13:47.225
in this wider game of politics take.

13:47.845 --> 13:52.585
But it is still nevertheless, clear to me that,

13:53.215 --> 13:55.905
even in the discourse surrounding the,

13:56.005 --> 14:00.185
the current war in Gaza and the background to this war,

14:00.525 --> 14:03.345
and the, the Israeli Palestinian conflict generally,

14:03.845 --> 14:08.105
and debates about Israeli nationhood most,

14:08.375 --> 14:11.825
expensively, these questions of political theology

14:11.965 --> 14:15.305
and its relation to, let's call it theology, theology

14:15.365 --> 14:18.625
or, you know, traditional theology, are foundational,

14:19.085 --> 14:22.105
and they feed, they feed the way people understand

14:23.075 --> 14:24.865
their actions on a daily basis.

14:25.055 --> 14:27.105
They feel the way people understand their identity,

14:27.285 --> 14:30.465
and politicians understanding what they're calling

14:30.525 --> 14:33.105
or what the, what is demanded, of them to do.

14:33.765 --> 14:36.625
Um, there are some shallow expressions

14:36.625 --> 14:39.065
of this when you hear politicians kind of referring to

14:39.645 --> 14:42.265
the Israeli politic in biblical terms and so forth.

14:42.405 --> 14:44.785
But this I find less interesting

14:44.965 --> 14:46.545
and kind of less appealing, you know,

14:46.545 --> 14:48.425
the symbolic appropriation of this

14:48.425 --> 14:53.345
or that than, demo, I would say,

14:53.365 --> 14:55.785
wider spectrum kind of question of,

14:56.525 --> 14:59.345
as a nation state playing out that script

14:59.445 --> 15:00.705
of political theology

15:00.805 --> 15:04.585
or nation statism, how is, the Jewish nation state

15:04.605 --> 15:08.985
or the nation state of Jews, coping with this,

15:09.365 --> 15:12.985
how would I call it, baggage of claiming a Jewish identity?

15:13.225 --> 15:15.145
I hope if, if at least they get confused,

15:15.245 --> 15:17.305
if at least they get, no, I, I'm kidding.

15:17.705 --> 15:22.105
I think, well, my book is motivated, as I said earlier,

15:22.485 --> 15:27.295
by this sense of, taken for granted

15:29.095 --> 15:31.765
parts of our discourse on Israel

15:31.905 --> 15:35.845
and on nation states generally, that need to be teased out.

15:36.145 --> 15:38.045
So if I managed to tease this out

15:38.185 --> 15:40.685
and to cause the reader to stop for a second

15:40.865 --> 15:42.725
and contemplate about these issues,

15:42.745 --> 15:46.445
and then maybe do what your previous question was aiming at,

15:46.985 --> 15:49.765
man, look at the contemporary

15:51.435 --> 15:53.005
political development, this

15:53.005 --> 15:57.605
or that political, development, this

15:57.605 --> 16:00.165
or that item spoken about in the news,

16:01.455 --> 16:03.595
and think about it through this wider frames.

16:04.665 --> 16:06.025
I would be very happy if this happens,

16:06.025 --> 16:07.305
because I think,

16:07.975 --> 16:11.425
there's a unique light shared upon this,

16:12.175 --> 16:16.265
endless occupation with the present, with this conflictual,

16:16.765 --> 16:20.065
you know, blood drenched reality that is now,

16:20.405 --> 16:23.585
Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and, and and beyond.

16:24.285 --> 16:27.225
Uh, there's value of looking at it through a new light

16:27.225 --> 16:29.745
that is, informed

16:29.885 --> 16:32.025
by this most more fundamental questions

16:32.025 --> 16:33.625
of the very nature of the polity.

16:33.785 --> 16:37.025
I end the book with, with the question of,

16:39.065 --> 16:43.155
whether or how we could speak back

16:43.155 --> 16:46.515
to nationalism since so much of the problematics

16:46.515 --> 16:48.755
that I tease out or, you know, expose

16:48.815 --> 16:52.835
or interpret in my, my book have to do

16:52.835 --> 16:55.675
with the playing out of the logic of nationalism.

16:55.685 --> 16:59.515
Again, a logic that is, that originates outside

16:59.515 --> 17:01.835
of Israel, outside of, you know,

17:01.895 --> 17:03.315
of our contemporary times.

17:03.495 --> 17:05.115
It has its history in Europe,

17:06.255 --> 17:10.795
but it, it's playing out, in Israel and in other places.

17:11.835 --> 17:16.405
Um, obviously gives sense that we need some ways

17:16.465 --> 17:19.045
of answering back or talking back to nationalism.

17:19.625 --> 17:21.845
Uh, much of contemporary criticism

17:21.845 --> 17:26.265
of nationalism focuses on the way it others, those

17:26.265 --> 17:28.185
who are not us, and excludes them.

17:29.095 --> 17:30.715
And I find the Israeli

17:30.815 --> 17:33.915
and Jewish case to offer us an additional perspective

17:33.975 --> 17:36.115
of seeing how nationalism erases

17:37.075 --> 17:38.815
the diversity of the ingroup.

17:39.395 --> 17:40.605
Now, Jewish history

17:40.625 --> 17:42.565
and, Jewish tradition kind

17:42.565 --> 17:47.165
of lend themselves immediately to a view that is attentive

17:47.225 --> 17:48.845
to the multi vocality

17:48.865 --> 17:52.805
Of tradition, the multiplicity of voices that are Jewish,

17:52.945 --> 17:56.285
the multiplicity of ways of being Jewish in the world,

17:56.895 --> 17:58.645
which nationalism cannot stomach.

17:58.745 --> 18:01.445
It wants unity, it wants, identity.

18:02.105 --> 18:05.845
Uh, it's not a coincidence that the main political project

18:06.225 --> 18:08.765
of the, newly established state

18:08.765 --> 18:10.925
of Israel was a melting pot project.

18:11.105 --> 18:14.285
So a nation building not through a weaving

18:14.545 --> 18:19.285
of the different beautiful, colorful strains of this Iranian

18:19.385 --> 18:23.655
or Persian carpet, but a melting,

18:24.125 --> 18:26.295
deformation of everything that came in order

18:26.355 --> 18:28.935
to create a new formation in the shape of,

18:29.175 --> 18:30.575
national ident ideology.

18:31.035 --> 18:34.935
Now, I think if we take up this challenge

18:35.275 --> 18:38.775
and think about nation statism

18:39.375 --> 18:41.295
critically thinking about nation cities

18:41.565 --> 18:43.535
through the multi vocality

18:43.555 --> 18:48.415
and multiplicity of tradition, this presents

18:48.435 --> 18:52.055
as a huge challenge, thinking of specifically in Israeli

18:52.055 --> 18:55.735
and Jewish case of, of Jewish ways

18:55.875 --> 18:59.855
of thinking about this issue

18:59.955 --> 19:03.255
of Jewish nationalism, Israeli nationalism, Zionism

19:03.255 --> 19:07.235
as an ideology, that

19:07.975 --> 19:09.425
nourish on this diversity.

19:10.575 --> 19:12.665
This is obviously, is a collective project,

19:12.885 --> 19:17.505
and if my work, manages to encourage some, you know,

19:17.505 --> 19:18.825
some other readers and,

19:18.825 --> 19:22.025
and writers to develop this, I would be very happy.

00:00 - Most of my, other contemporary work, which deals with the questions of, you know, the meaning of Jewish nationalism in Israel. the motivation is really this puzzle that, has always kind of shadowed my consideration of Israel and my identity as an Israeli citizen, Israeli born,

00:19 - person, which is the meaning of Israel's Jewish claim. there's always, a sense of attention surrounding it, and I've been trying time and again, to come and, you know, better understanding that then maybe offer a better understanding to my audience, my readers, about what seems to me the most fundamental issue of the Israeli polity. We often say in English as a, almost as a synonym for the name of the state of Israel, the Jewish state, and we assume that it's clear what, you know,

00:49 - both the speaker and the audience assume that they have a very clear sense of what it means. And this is actually, as far as I can, see this one of the most muddled concepts, and to differentiate the Jewishness of the state of Israel between two outlooks, two, two narratives of what the state is about and where it should go, is helpful. And I think these two, outlooks do dominate some parts

01:16 - of the discourse or the, you know, the speakers in Israel and outside of it. So, one story would be that Israel is, simply a state for Jews, the Jews state. Now, both terms can be comfortably be translated from, Herz theater, Hertz's famous, plan, or again, how would say prescriptions for a Jewish polity, the, the, so it could be the Jewish state or the Jewish state. The Jewish state would be a rather straightforward

01:52 - application of the notion of, a state that is based on the sovereignty of a certain national or ethnic group. And that's it, meaning that there would be no, prescription of what we would usually call traditional religious, or similarly, how would they say, emanating from the past values, practices, expectations from the polity. All that the state would need to do is to have a Jewish majority.

02:28 - And this is not that simple, given that Israel is based on, you know, is, is Israel given that Israel is in a, again, a fundamental way, collection of diasporas of Jews coming from all over the world. And, it is obviously, established on a land that was previously, occupied by, by people who are not members of this, nation. To put this, you know, conflict in mild terms, the Jewish state

02:58 - Outlook, on the other hand, would say that Israel is, the polity itself is expected constitutionally. So to have some correspondence to what we would call tradition religion, maybe a, you know, a baggage of values carried from the past that, well, most participants in the discourse would agree, are part of Jewish religion. it doesn't mean that the state has to be a theology, sorry, a, a theocracy or that it has to, that it has to be,

03:33 - you know, a religious state. But it would present an expectation from the polity to have some correspondence with these, values of Jewish life as they were exercised in the past and developed in the various venues were, you know, tradition is developed. So just to give a, you know, an obvious case, we would, would ask, what is the nature of a Jewish economy in a Jewish state? While the Jewish state outlook would say,

04:02 - this is all irrelevant, as the Jews would make of the state whatever they want, as long as they are the majority. And, and I, I think that this, this distinction between the two outlooks can help us understand some of the historical and contemporary debates in Israel surrounding Jewish and Zionist nationalism. Well, my research is based, mostly what I do is interpretive political studies

04:26 - or sociopolitical study, which means that I, I read publicly available sources, either, you know, historical writings of Zionist ideologues, kind of returning to some of, the better known and lesser known works of people who have shaped Zionist ideology, but also, attending to public debates as they are, have been taking place on various platforms. But reading them sometimes against the grain, sometimes a little bit deeper, sometimes, you know,

05:01 - allowing the speakers to maybe say out loud what they have not necessarily thought through, fully thought, thought through. So, to give one example, some of my work is based on an analysis of the public debate surrounding this controversial 2018 law, basic law Israel, the designate Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people. since its passing in 2018, a lot

05:26 - of public debate has been, taken place both inside and outside of Israel. And there were, almost 10 years of discussions in the Israeli public sphere about it before it was passed as the law. So there's a lot of material to work with. And, you know, in the 24 hours news cycle mindset, we sometimes forget that there's a history to this discourse. And, most of my, you know,

05:54 - attempted understanding political reality is based on such analysis of the, of the discourse, of the political discourse we all well sharing in some form of one way or another, the question of Zionism as an ideology, as a movement, as a, as an enterprise that was successful in creating a state that is to this day, identifying through the ideology of Zionism. The relationship between this and Jewish history at large is one of the greatest puzzles of Jewish history

06:30 - and obviously of, of, of the Israeli, history. this is, so for several reasons, maybe the most obvious of which is that Zionism identifies as a national Jewish national movement. It identifies itself with the task of, giving political self-determination to the people that is determined by just Jewish history. And at the same time, at the same breath, on the same breath, Zionism as, the mainstream of Zionism rebels against sees itself

07:04 - as rebelling against vehemently rebelling against this tradition, this, what it would call religion, even some aspects of this, of this nationality, of this national identity, where Zionism to simply view itself as a continuation in the historical development and flow of Judaism as some modern religious, movements have done, that would be less of a problem. Now, a common answer to this question of, so what is Zionism's relation to, to, Judaism is to say

07:40 - that Zionism is a secularization of, of Judaism, that we have Judaism as a religion before, and then something happens in Europe, enlightenment, first Renaissance and Enlightenment and so forth. And then we, we end up with secularization, which in the Jewish case is politicized or gains political expression in the form of Jewish nationalism. But this is, how would they call, far satisfying, explanation to this relations.

08:09 - for one thing, it's not clear what this secularization means. Zionism is not able, or never wanted really to do away with Jewish religion. It relies on Jewish religion in some fundamental manners. Secondly, when you consider, what I would, you know, label under political theology, which is the playing out of politics as a substitute for traditional theology, it's, it, it's even less clear what secular, what secular about it.

08:40 - If we worship the state instead of God, I can understand that, you know, that competing data is here, but it's still worship. It's not, you know, it's still religious worship. So what I, what I realized and, tried to convey In my, in the book is that one possibly fruitful way of understanding this relationship between Zionism and, and Judaism is to view it as one of supersessionism.

09:06 - Now, supersessionism is a Christian concept. It basically tells a story of the Christian Church having either replaced or in effect, more important, not even replaced, but actually reclaimed its authentic place as the real Israel, that as in the people of Israel, the, the Biblical Israel, the church. this is a well developed concept and very well debated concept within Christian theological circles.

09:37 - often it is, also referred to as replacement theology. The, the, again, the story that the church replaces the Israel as the Covenanted people, party. So the, the party that took the, the role of being God's chosen people, or the God God's chosen, it's more than a people. but again, replacement theology is a bit of a misnomer because there's no necessarily a replacement taking place.

10:02 - The church says itself is the authentic, the authentic, the real, sense of Judaism. Now in Christian contexts, this is, even in Christian context, this is a very highly debated and problematic notion. It has antisemitism kind of, you know, saw into this, into it. so I, I don't wanna, you know, make this direct, illusion that Zionism is Christianity, God forbid this is not what I'm saying.

10:30 - What I'm saying is that this relationship of viewing oneself as having either replaced or actually, manifesting a reincarnation of the authentic sense of that which is replaced or put aside, does help us understand a lot about the Zionist relation to Judaism at some parts of the Zionist ideological discourse. This is almost a given. It's obvious. Some Zionists Ideolog speak, speak kind of,

11:01 - how do I say it? they, they celebrate, they, they, they speak very explicitly about having Zionism or making Zionism into a religion that uproot Judaism and replaces it. But then it is a Jewish religion. It's a Jewish national religion. When it comes to, contemporary Israeli, culture, it's fascinating to see expressions of anxiety, a replacement anxiety in a sense that the fear

11:33 - that a volcanic power of Judaism would erupt from under this, facade of modern Jewish national identity, which I ident, I, I understand is an expression of this, fear of the, you know, the supers side. but mostly I think this is, and I hope it comes out in, in the book, properly, this is a call for reconsidering the relationship between Zionism and Judaism, which has some obvious political implications.

12:04 - First of all, I think the, the, the end of your question is, is essential. I, I stress, and I, you know, I go to great lengths of saying that while my work is immediately focused on the Israeli nation state, on Israeli nation, sta is, I would say, on a, on a federal, well, on a basically very important level, there's nothing unique about the Israeli case. This is the political theology of the nation state,

12:29 - the more a nation state as it has developed in Europe since the 17th century, at least, the playing out of this script in the Israeli case. Now, what obviously is unique about it is that the Israelis are this case, speak Jewishly. They speak directly to Jewish tradition and Jewish history, while other nation states don't, they don't, even if they proclaim to be, you know, the chosen people or like, or, you know, even if they have this national theological,

12:59 - sense that is derived from the new, the Christian, new New Testament, as in some, you know, nationalism in the US for example, do they still don't speak as a Jewish nation state? Israel is the only one that does that, which brings to life this fascinating Jewish dilemma. So if you ask me about, direct implication to daily politics, I would be hesitant to answer this explicitly, because it is always, dangerous to draw

13:31 - direct lines from, the infrastructure of our, our, you know, being in the world to immediate actions that this or that political party or political personas or, participant in the, in this wider game of politics take. But it is still nevertheless, clear to me that, even in the discourse surrounding the, the current war in Gaza and the background to this war, and the, the Israeli Palestinian conflict generally, and debates about Israeli nationhood most,

14:08 - expensively, these questions of political theology and its relation to, let's call it theology, theology or, you know, traditional theology, are foundational, and they feed, they feed the way people understand their actions on a daily basis. They feel the way people understand their identity, and politicians understanding what they're calling or what the, what is demanded, of them to do. there are some shallow expressions of this when you hear politicians kind of referring to

14:39 - the Israeli politic in biblical terms and so forth. But this I find less interesting and kind of less appealing, you know, the symbolic appropriation of this or that than, demo, I would say, wider spectrum kind of question of, as a nation state playing out that script of political theology or nation statism, how is, the Jewish nation state or the nation state of Jews, coping with this,

15:09 - how would I call it, baggage of claiming a Jewish identity? I hope if, if at least they get confused, if at least they get, no, I, I'm kidding. I think, well, my book is motivated, as I said earlier, by this sense of, taken for granted parts of our discourse on Israel and on nation states generally, that need to be teased out. So if I managed to tease this out and to cause the reader to stop for a second and contemplate about these issues,

15:42 - and then maybe do what your previous question was aiming at, man, look at the contemporary political development, this or that political, development, this or that item spoken about in the news, and think about it through this wider frames. I would be very happy if this happens, because I think, there's a unique light shared upon this, endless occupation with the present, with this conflictual,

16:16 - you know, blood drenched reality that is now, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and, and and beyond. there's value of looking at it through a new light that is, informed by this most more fundamental questions of the very nature of the polity. I end the book with, with the question of, whether or how we could speak back to nationalism since so much of the problematics that I tease out or, you know, expose

16:48 - or interpret in my, my book have to do with the playing out of the logic of nationalism. Again, a logic that is, that originates outside of Israel, outside of, you know, of our contemporary times. It has its history in Europe, but it, it's playing out, in Israel and in other places. obviously gives sense that we need some ways of answering back or talking back to nationalism. much of contemporary criticism

17:21 - of nationalism focuses on the way it others, those who are not us, and excludes them. And I find the Israeli and Jewish case to offer us an additional perspective of seeing how nationalism erases the diversity of the ingroup. Now, Jewish history and, Jewish tradition kind of lend themselves immediately to a view that is attentive to the multi vocality

17:48 - Of tradition, the multiplicity of voices that are Jewish, the multiplicity of ways of being Jewish in the world, which nationalism cannot stomach. It wants unity, it wants, identity. it's not a coincidence that the main political project of the, newly established state of Israel was a melting pot project. So a nation building not through a weaving of the different beautiful, colorful strains of this Iranian or Persian carpet, but a melting,

18:24 - deformation of everything that came in order to create a new formation in the shape of, national ident ideology. Now, I think if we take up this challenge and think about nation statism critically thinking about nation cities through the multi vocality and multiplicity of tradition, this presents as a huge challenge, thinking of specifically in Israeli and Jewish case of, of Jewish ways

18:55 - of thinking about this issue of Jewish nationalism, Israeli nationalism, Zionism as an ideology, that nourish on this diversity. This is obviously, is a collective project, and if my work, manages to encourage some, you know, some other readers and, and writers to develop this, I would be very happy.

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