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Towards a ‘low ambition equilibrium’

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View the page of Ihssane Otmani

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Ihssane Otmani explores the role of policy in influencing refugee educational and occupational aspirations and how this translates into promoting or hindering certain integration paths.

Image courtesy of interviewee. January 24, 2024

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This video video provides an overview of a dissertation focused on the educational and occupational aspirations of refugees, emphasizing the influence of integration policies on these aspirations. Initially, the study aimed to explore various theories related to refugees’ post-migration experiences but was narrowed down to specifically examine aspirations.

The researcher highlights a common oversight in existing literature, which predominantly addresses the aspirations of potential migrants rather than those who have already arrived in their host countries. They introduce the concept of a "policy dance environment," illustrating the complex interplay between refugees' aspirations and the policies they encounter in their new societies, particularly in Switzerland.

The researcher also differentiates between ambitious and realistic aspirations, incorporating a dynamic perspective that considers how aspirations evolve over different life phases. Furthermore, they discuss the concept of collective aspirations, where the goals of individuals are influenced not only by personal ambitions but also by community and state expectations.

The study is qualitative, involving interviews with 29 refugees in Switzerland, and aims to understand how various integration policies shape their aspirations. Three main policy themes emerged from the interviews, leading to the identification of a "low ambition equilibrium" where the combination of restrictive policies and the refugees' personal circumstances results in a focus on short-term, modest goals rather than more ambitious long-term aspirations.

The researcher critiques existing integration policies for prioritizing quick labor market entry over fostering the broader potential of refugees, and emphasizes the need for more inclusive, holistic policies that recognize the diverse backgrounds and experiences of refugee populations. The findings suggest that successful integration requires collaboration across various sectors and a more nuanced understanding of the aspirations and capabilities of refugees.

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Here are some similar articles and resources that relate to the themes discussed in the video about refugees' aspirations, integration policies, and their influence on occupational and educational goals:

1. **"Refugees and Aspirations: Education and Integration in Host Societies"** – This article explores the educational aspirations of refugees in different host countries and how integration policies shape their experiences and opportunities.

2. **"The Impact of Integration Policies on Refugees’ Employment Aspirations"** – A study that analyzes the relationship between the types of integration policies implemented in various countries and the employment aspirations of refugees, emphasizing the role of policy in shaping outcomes.

3. **"Collective Aspirations in Post-Migration Convideos: A Qualitative Study"** – This research examines how community and social factors influence the aspirations of refugees and migrants, highlighting the concept of collective aspirations mentioned in your video.

4. **"Navigating the Policy Dance: Refugee Integration in Switzerland"** – A detailed case study focusing on the Swiss convideo, discussing the unique challenges faced by refugees in terms of integration policies and how these affect their aspirations and outcomes.

5. **"Ambition Vs. Reality: Refugees’ Experiences in Labor Markets"** – This article critiques the focus on immediate labor market entry for refugees, arguing for a more holistic approach that encompasses long-term aspirations and the overall potential of individuals.

6. **"Understanding Refugee Aspirations: A Case for Inclusive Policies"** – This paper discusses the need for integration policies that recognize refugee aspirations, emphasizing the importance of a nuanced approach to policy-making that considers individual and collective goals.

7. **"The Low Ambition Trap: Refugees in Host Countries"** – An examination of the phenomenon where restrictive policies and adverse conditions limit the ambitions of refugees, resulting in a cycle of low aspirations.

8. **"Refugees in Transition: Educational and Occupational Aspirations Post-Migration"** – This research highlights the transitional experience of refugees and how their aspirations for education and employment evolve as they adapt to life in host countries.

These articles will provide a deeper understanding of the dynamics between refugees’ aspirations, integration policies, and their integration experiences across various convideos.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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The study is part of my dissertation entitled,

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educational and Occupational Aspirations of Refugees.

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Um, you know, at the beginning of this, of my work, we,

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with my supervisor, we had different ideas.

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We wanted to study, you know,

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this capital's theory in the context of, of refugees

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and post migration in conjunction with aspirations

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and how integration policies

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and different policies influence that.

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But, you know, it's too many things at the same time.

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Then we reflected even more about it.

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We did more readings,

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and at the end, we decided to narrow it down to aspirations.

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Um, so why aspirations

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and why in conjunction with policy?

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So, first, when we look at the kind

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of research we find on aspirations in the context

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of migration, a lot of it is focused on this, part

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where this study, the aspiration to migrate.

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But we were interested to study, okay, now people are here,

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they have, a permit, a legal status.

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What happens to the aspirations?

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And what was very interesting in the case of refugees is

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that I have this, this term,

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or that I use a lot in my, in, in this paper

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and also in my work, is the policy dance environment.

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What I mean by that is that refugees, you know, they go

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through very complicated situations in their life,

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in their home countries, for many

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of them transition country.

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And then they arrive to host society in the global north.

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And there are many policies they have to deal with.

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For example, they start to design policy.

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Then there is integration policy and education policy

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and other traditional policies.

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So I describe this as a policy dance environment.

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And we were also, interested to see how, people

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who come with, with aspirations,

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we become also even this idea of capital is not,

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I I don't really directly mention it in the papers,

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but we come with a background

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and then they find themselves in this

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policy dance environment.

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So we were interested to see

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how this shapes their aspirations

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and also how this translates into shaping their integration,

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trajectories or their experience of integration.

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But I focus on as aspirations is what people,

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are willing to invest, time, money,

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and resources in general to achieve.

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So, you know, in this discussion of the definition

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of aspiration, usually scholars,

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they talk about two types of aspirations.

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You have the, realistic ones and the idealistic one.

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So the one that I look into, are more the one

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where the person or the refugee tells me, I see

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that they are really willing to invest time and resources.

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And also I look at aspirations from a dynamic perspective

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because, as I said,

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I ask them questions about different phases in their lives.

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And for me, this is also important to see

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how these aspirations have evolved.

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And there's also, in the, in the definition of people,

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when they discuss the aspirations, the definition

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of aspiration, there is one scholar,

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I think her name is Hart, which she,

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she spoke about collective aspirations.

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So the aspirations, they're not just the representation

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of the individual, but also the representation,

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the representation of the collective.

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It can be the community, family, and the state.

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So also what the state aspires for you, like,

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if we look at these integration programs, programs,

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et cetera, also has an influence on, on these aspirations.

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And I take this into consideration as well,

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for this topic of aspiration.

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Uh, it, it, we were a little bit lost at the beginning, but

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after my interviews, it was clear

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that it's about aspiration formation,

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because there was not much research on that.

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Because when you look at the literature on refugee

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aspirations, many of it come to the conclusion

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that refugees have high aspirations,

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they have high aspirations to go to university, et cetera.

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So we wanted to question this conclusion

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and ask the question, okay,

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how these aspirations are formed.

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And for that, there is a literature on, on,

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on aspiration formation in general.

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And it's mostly a literature in the uk it did not study

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migrants, but it was more, it, it the are two main,

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I would say, strength of literature in this,

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aspiration formation.

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There is the status attainment theory, which basically says

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that, factors such as socioeconomic status

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and family, what they call them, significant others,

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such as family, teachers, peers, all influence,

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the formation of aspirations.

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But again, this theory studied mostly

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children and adolescent.

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And also there is another strand of literature, which,

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which is kind of, closer to, this study,

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it is called the blocked, opportunity, strand

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of literature, which basically studied, minorities.

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They were still Americans,

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but they were minority groups such as,

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black Americans or, Asian Americans.

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And then they found that people, in front

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of these block opportunities, they either, tried

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to aspire even more in order to compensate

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for these blocked opportunities or the give up.

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Uh, so these, I would say the main, guiding,

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strengths of literature for this paper.

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But, you know, in, in the paper also, I talk about,

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I mentioned the studies that studied, refugee,

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aspirations.

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And one, I would say, one of the points

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that made us even more, interested

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and motivated to study this is that most

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of these studies were conducted in the uk, Canada

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and Australia, with people who, arrived

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through resettlement, programs.

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And these people, they did not go through asylum procedure.

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So it was also interested to, expand the studies

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to continental Europe

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and to those refugees who had to go through, again,

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this very, very policy dance environment, which starts

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with asylum procedure, et cetera.

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It's a qualitative study.

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Um, I interviewed, 29 refugees,

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living in the country, Novo, in Switzerland,

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I have the title Switzerland,

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but again, in Switzerland, they are different provinces.

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They called cantons.

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And the, the, the,

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the policies in these cantons can be very different.

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So it's very hard to say I study, integration in,

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in Switzerland, you really have to be specific about

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where in Switzerland.

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So that was in the French speaking, Canton called vo.

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And, I tried to diversify,

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the gatekeepers.

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Um, so I approached different types

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of gate gatekeepers in order to get, different types of,

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refugees.

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Uh, so the gatekeepers,

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they were basically public organizations, who, are,

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responsible of implementing integration policy,

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responsible of accommodation, et cetera.

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And then they are, NGOs, who directly work

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with refugees or external, NGOs

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or organizations that are not state organizations,

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but are in charge of the

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implementation of integration policy.

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So I recruited refugees, and also snowballing.

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I used it also. Uh, so my criteria for,

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for recruiting the refugees, they had

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to be living in this country or VO

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or in Switzerland for at least three years.

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They need to have a permit.

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So, either the refugee status

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or the, another status that, that,

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that is expanded the paper called, Perme F.

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So I wanted them to be living in Switzerland

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for at least three years,

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and also to have a legal, like a permit that allows them

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to work and to study,

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because I wanted to see the impact of different,

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or how they experience different policies.

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So I did not want to interview people

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who are still in the process of asylum procedure,

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who may not have access

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to all the integration services offers, et cetera.

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Um, so, when it comes to interview process,

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I tried to,

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because, you know, interviews with refugees,

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I find them really tricky.

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And I think you, I, I need to be really as empathic

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and, you know, a a as I can,

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because putting them in a situation of an interview,

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can be very triggering.

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Because for people who have been through, these,

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asylum procedures, they have gone through many interviews

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that would decide, the outcome of,

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of many things in their lives.

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So in my interviews, I tried to, I always say I tried

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to give them, to give them the, the, the, the control

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of the interview in the sense that I told them,

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if you can leave

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whenever you want, you can decide not to answer questions.

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If any question, if you don't want to,

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we can stop the interview whenever you want to.

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So for me, this was very important.

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And I try, I try it as much as I can

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to share also about myself, my mi

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because I am a migrant myself

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to share about my migration background.

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So it doesn't feel as if, you know, I am this,

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I don't know, like superior person, whatever.

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But we also share this migration experience. It is true.

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I came here as a student, they came as a refugee,

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but we, at the end of the day, we all have,

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migration background.

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So this was very important for me to do.

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And because I, I speak Arabic, I, I conducted some

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of the interviews in Arabic.

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Um, and for the, for the analysis of the interview, I used,

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the software and vivo,

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and I used an inductive, approach.

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So, in, in the paper I do, in the results,

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I do speak about three main policies.

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And this policies, they came from the interview.

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So it, they were not decided beforehand.

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So once I read the interview data,

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so maybe I should mention what was in the interview.

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So it was, I asked them about

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aspirations in let's say three, four phases of their lives.

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So there was this, their aspirations in their home countries

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before they left, and their aspirations in a transition

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country, if they lived there for more than six months, if,

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and if that's the case,

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because there are some who did not live

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for more than six months in a transition country,

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the first year in Switzerland, now and the future.

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So I asked them about to talk about the aspirations,

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but also we spoke about other things such as their,

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social network, et cetera.

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The main result of this paper is this

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low ambition equilibrium.

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So if I need to summarize it, basically what it means is

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that on one hand we have all these policies, be it,

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integration policy design and policy

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and education policy, the promote the kind

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of aspirations that would lead to,

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quick labor market integration, basically, that would lead

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for to financial independence and for refugees to get a job

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and to get out of the social aid system.

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So this is the main motivation.

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Uh, so there is not much, I would say

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interest in promoting very ambitious aspirations

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or plans that would maybe be implemented,

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that would need more time to be implemented.

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But this is the main, the main motivation.

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That's one part of the low ambition equilibrium.

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Now, the second part is the refugees.

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Uh, so refugees for many reasons, because again,

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because of the influence of these policies, what they went

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through, during the, asylum procedure,

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I interviewed people who've been in this face

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of asylum procedure for three, four years.

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You know, it does a lot

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to you when you're in this limbo state for so long.

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And then you have the integration policies.

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I do present them a little bit for Switzerland.

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There is a high focus on vocational training

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and high focus on this quick label market, access.

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Uh, and also you have these, you have this system

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where if you wanna go to university, it's very complicated.

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There are many, hurdles, et cetera.

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So this is refugees. They have to face this.

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At the same time, they have

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to face their personal circumstances.

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For example, people who have their, their families in,

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in their home countries

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or the, in the countries of origin, you know,

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they've maybe struggling with many other things.

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So, and also many of them, they just tired

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of being constantly battling constantly in a, you know,

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in a confrontation state.

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So they're like, okay, you know what?

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I, I just want, a normal life.

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I want some sense of normalcy.

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And I, if you want me to get a job, I will also, you know,

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I, I will go in that direction as well.

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So here we see that the aspirations,

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regardless if they're very, ambitious,

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they're not really promoted,

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and the kind of many of them, they go alone.

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You know, they go in this direction.

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And the result of this combination on one side,

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all these policies and the expectations, et cetera.

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And then the refugees, both how they, the,

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they experience these policies,

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but also the personal, circumstances

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converge into creating what I call the law,

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ambition equilibrium.

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The policies, how they are designed today, they do not,

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promote,

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capitalizing on the potential of refugees.

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There is a big pressure.

13:35.145 --> 13:36.885
So what is considered

13:36.885 --> 13:39.525
to be a good integration is basically someone

13:39.625 --> 13:42.045
who is no more dependent on social aid,

13:42.395 --> 13:43.565
someone who has a job.

13:44.385 --> 13:47.685
And I think we need to kind of also,

13:48.045 --> 13:50.645
critically question this idea of, yeah,

13:51.515 --> 13:54.925
because many studies, they talk about refugees having,

13:55.105 --> 13:59.605
one of the lowest employment rate among the population or,

13:59.605 --> 14:00.925
or among migrants.

14:01.425 --> 14:05.525
So do we consider that it's a good thing that they,

14:05.525 --> 14:07.285
they have any, any type of job,

14:08.025 --> 14:11.485
or we should also question what kind of job they have.

14:11.955 --> 14:15.965
Does this job, fit into the potential of these people?

14:15.965 --> 14:19.205
Because yes, now in the short run, it's good.

14:19.345 --> 14:22.125
Now they have a job, their, their normal,

14:22.205 --> 14:23.565
no more dependent on social aid.

14:23.565 --> 14:27.125
But what are the long-term, implications of this policy?

14:27.295 --> 14:31.145
Would this just, foster

14:31.665 --> 14:32.905
inequalities in society?

14:33.325 --> 14:35.305
So that, this is a question I cannot answer

14:35.305 --> 14:38.825
because, you know, the, the people I interviewed for,

14:38.935 --> 14:41.665
most of them they lived in, in Switzerland

14:41.665 --> 14:42.665
for less than 10 years.

14:42.685 --> 14:44.985
And I think to answer this type of question, we really need

14:44.985 --> 14:47.545
to talk to people who have been here for, for a long time.

14:47.885 --> 14:50.265
And also, one of, I would say the implications is

14:50.265 --> 14:51.725
that we can see that

14:52.585 --> 14:55.845
we cannot really talk about integration policy

14:56.425 --> 15:00.685
and successful integration without,

15:01.755 --> 15:05.205
linking this to other policies such as migration policy,

15:05.355 --> 15:07.085
education policy, et cetera.

15:07.255 --> 15:09.005
Everything is intertwined.

15:09.825 --> 15:13.245
And, and we can also see that these policies, the, the,

15:13.385 --> 15:16.005
the kind of work against each others, you know,

15:16.545 --> 15:19.725
we have the discourse of integration policy, which yes,

15:19.905 --> 15:21.965
we need to be integrated, et cetera.

15:22.465 --> 15:25.605
Um, who put a lot of pressure on refugees themselves need

15:25.605 --> 15:26.925
to learn the language, et cetera.

15:26.945 --> 15:29.965
But what is, what kind of conditions are there?

15:30.625 --> 15:33.045
Uh, and then we have the migration policies,

15:33.045 --> 15:35.805
which becoming even more, restrictive.

15:35.825 --> 15:38.485
And at the same time, you expect people to integrate.

15:38.785 --> 15:41.645
And yes, people, they wanna go to university, get education,

15:41.645 --> 15:44.125
but then when they go to university, it's very complicated.

15:44.505 --> 15:45.885
So we see that this poli,

15:45.945 --> 15:49.125
you cannot really talk about integration without talking

15:49.195 --> 15:50.445
also about other policies

15:50.445 --> 15:52.285
and making sure that they work together

15:52.745 --> 15:54.325
and they don't work against each other.

15:55.065 --> 15:58.485
And also, I, I think one major implication of this study is

15:58.485 --> 16:02.685
that, I have in another, it's not published,

16:02.685 --> 16:04.805
but I just speak about, we need

16:04.805 --> 16:07.525
to have more inclusive integration policies.

16:07.525 --> 16:09.405
Because I mean, that's why sometimes people,

16:09.405 --> 16:11.045
they don't like talking about integration,

16:11.045 --> 16:12.645
but about inclusion in general.

16:12.915 --> 16:15.925
Because yes, you can have these policies that pretend

16:15.985 --> 16:17.685
to want to integrate people faster,

16:18.525 --> 16:21.005
whatever it's successfully, but then when you look at them,

16:21.005 --> 16:22.325
they're not really inclusive.

16:22.555 --> 16:26.525
They just, I think there is 1, 1 1 point

16:26.525 --> 16:27.525
that is very important.

16:27.715 --> 16:30.925
When we look at, I look at many integration policies.

16:31.345 --> 16:34.565
We see that we, they treat refugees as one hi

16:35.145 --> 16:36.525
one homogeneous group.

16:36.755 --> 16:38.925
It's like, okay, these are refugees. They're here.

16:39.425 --> 16:41.605
Uh, we want them to be integrated in the level

16:41.605 --> 16:42.645
market very fast.

16:42.715 --> 16:45.565
This is how you do it, vocational training,

16:45.585 --> 16:46.845
or you get a job directly.

16:46.865 --> 16:49.525
But these are people who have, they're not have one group.

16:49.875 --> 16:52.445
It's a heterogeneous group of people

16:52.475 --> 16:53.485
with different backgrounds.

16:53.485 --> 16:54.885
They come from different countries.

16:55.545 --> 16:57.005
Um, I think it's very important

16:57.005 --> 16:58.565
to take this into consideration.

16:58.625 --> 17:00.885
And instead of talking about integration,

17:00.965 --> 17:04.085
talking about inclusive policies can be inclusive migration

17:04.085 --> 17:05.485
policy, education policy,

17:05.905 --> 17:10.485
and where everyone in society should be, should feel,

17:11.225 --> 17:14.965
like concerned by, by this inclusion,

17:15.035 --> 17:17.885
it's not just the role of this organization in charge

17:17.885 --> 17:19.885
of implementing integration policy.

17:20.355 --> 17:22.725
It's the role of everyone, of the universities,

17:22.825 --> 17:25.005
of all the institute of employers

17:25.025 --> 17:26.325
who play an important role.

17:27.245 --> 17:29.485
Everyone in society is concerned.

17:29.485 --> 17:31.765
And without having everyone on, on board

17:32.105 --> 17:35.165
and making them understand that they are also in charge

17:35.265 --> 17:39.565
of implementing this inclusive policies, they,

17:39.565 --> 17:40.965
they will be, it'll be very hard

17:40.965 --> 17:43.805
to talk about successful inclusion or integration.

00:00 - The study is part of my dissertation entitled, educational and Occupational Aspirations of Refugees. you know, at the beginning of this, of my work, we, with my supervisor, we had different ideas. We wanted to study, you know, this capital's theory in the context of, of refugees

00:20 - and post migration in conjunction with aspirations and how integration policies and different policies influence that. But, you know, it's too many things at the same time. Then we reflected even more about it. We did more readings, and at the end, we decided to narrow it down to aspirations. so why aspirations and why in conjunction with policy? So, first, when we look at the kind

00:44 - of research we find on aspirations in the context of migration, a lot of it is focused on this, part where this study, the aspiration to migrate. But we were interested to study, okay, now people are here, they have, a permit, a legal status. What happens to the aspirations? And what was very interesting in the case of refugees is that I have this, this term, or that I use a lot in my, in, in this paper and also in my work, is the policy dance environment.

01:15 - What I mean by that is that refugees, you know, they go through very complicated situations in their life, in their home countries, for many of them transition country. And then they arrive to host society in the global north. And there are many policies they have to deal with. For example, they start to design policy. Then there is integration policy and education policy and other traditional policies. So I describe this as a policy dance environment.

01:41 - And we were also, interested to see how, people who come with, with aspirations, we become also even this idea of capital is not, I I don't really directly mention it in the papers, but we come with a background and then they find themselves in this policy dance environment. So we were interested to see how this shapes their aspirations and also how this translates into shaping their integration,

02:07 - trajectories or their experience of integration. But I focus on as aspirations is what people, are willing to invest, time, money, and resources in general to achieve. So, you know, in this discussion of the definition of aspiration, usually scholars, they talk about two types of aspirations. You have the, realistic ones and the idealistic one. So the one that I look into, are more the one where the person or the refugee tells me, I see

02:37 - that they are really willing to invest time and resources. And also I look at aspirations from a dynamic perspective because, as I said, I ask them questions about different phases in their lives. And for me, this is also important to see how these aspirations have evolved. And there's also, in the, in the definition of people, when they discuss the aspirations, the definition of aspiration, there is one scholar, I think her name is Hart, which she,

03:06 - she spoke about collective aspirations. So the aspirations, they're not just the representation of the individual, but also the representation, the representation of the collective. It can be the community, family, and the state. So also what the state aspires for you, like, if we look at these integration programs, programs, et cetera, also has an influence on, on these aspirations. And I take this into consideration as well, for this topic of aspiration.

03:31 - it, it, we were a little bit lost at the beginning, but after my interviews, it was clear that it's about aspiration formation, because there was not much research on that. Because when you look at the literature on refugee aspirations, many of it come to the conclusion that refugees have high aspirations, they have high aspirations to go to university, et cetera. So we wanted to question this conclusion and ask the question, okay,

03:56 - how these aspirations are formed. And for that, there is a literature on, on, on aspiration formation in general. And it's mostly a literature in the uk it did not study migrants, but it was more, it, it the are two main, I would say, strength of literature in this, aspiration formation. There is the status attainment theory, which basically says that, factors such as socioeconomic status and family, what they call them, significant others,

04:27 - such as family, teachers, peers, all influence, the formation of aspirations. But again, this theory studied mostly children and adolescent. And also there is another strand of literature, which, which is kind of, closer to, this study, it is called the blocked, opportunity, strand of literature, which basically studied, minorities. They were still Americans, but they were minority groups such as,

04:59 - black Americans or, Asian Americans. And then they found that people, in front of these block opportunities, they either, tried to aspire even more in order to compensate for these blocked opportunities or the give up. so these, I would say the main, guiding, strengths of literature for this paper. But, you know, in, in the paper also, I talk about, I mentioned the studies that studied, refugee, aspirations.

05:30 - And one, I would say, one of the points that made us even more, interested and motivated to study this is that most of these studies were conducted in the uk, Canada and Australia, with people who, arrived through resettlement, programs. And these people, they did not go through asylum procedure. So it was also interested to, expand the studies to continental Europe and to those refugees who had to go through, again,

05:57 - this very, very policy dance environment, which starts with asylum procedure, et cetera. It's a qualitative study. I interviewed, 29 refugees, living in the country, Novo, in Switzerland, I have the title Switzerland, but again, in Switzerland, they are different provinces. They called cantons. And the, the, the, the policies in these cantons can be very different.

06:22 - So it's very hard to say I study, integration in, in Switzerland, you really have to be specific about where in Switzerland. So that was in the French speaking, Canton called vo. And, I tried to diversify, the gatekeepers. so I approached different types of gate gatekeepers in order to get, different types of, refugees. so the gatekeepers,

06:49 - they were basically public organizations, who, are, responsible of implementing integration policy, responsible of accommodation, et cetera. And then they are, NGOs, who directly work with refugees or external, NGOs or organizations that are not state organizations, but are in charge of the implementation of integration policy. So I recruited refugees, and also snowballing. I used it also. so my criteria for,

07:20 - for recruiting the refugees, they had to be living in this country or VO or in Switzerland for at least three years. They need to have a permit. So, either the refugee status or the, another status that, that, that is expanded the paper called, Perme F. So I wanted them to be living in Switzerland for at least three years, and also to have a legal, like a permit that allows them

07:45 - to work and to study, because I wanted to see the impact of different, or how they experience different policies. So I did not want to interview people who are still in the process of asylum procedure, who may not have access to all the integration services offers, et cetera. so, when it comes to interview process, I tried to, because, you know, interviews with refugees,

08:11 - I find them really tricky. And I think you, I, I need to be really as empathic and, you know, a a as I can, because putting them in a situation of an interview, can be very triggering. Because for people who have been through, these, asylum procedures, they have gone through many interviews that would decide, the outcome of, of many things in their lives. So in my interviews, I tried to, I always say I tried

08:42 - to give them, to give them the, the, the, the control of the interview in the sense that I told them, if you can leave whenever you want, you can decide not to answer questions. If any question, if you don't want to, we can stop the interview whenever you want to. So for me, this was very important. And I try, I try it as much as I can to share also about myself, my mi because I am a migrant myself

09:06 - to share about my migration background. So it doesn't feel as if, you know, I am this, I don't know, like superior person, whatever. But we also share this migration experience. It is true. I came here as a student, they came as a refugee, but we, at the end of the day, we all have, migration background. So this was very important for me to do. And because I, I speak Arabic, I, I conducted some of the interviews in Arabic.

09:33 - and for the, for the analysis of the interview, I used, the software and vivo, and I used an inductive, approach. So, in, in the paper I do, in the results, I do speak about three main policies. And this policies, they came from the interview. So it, they were not decided beforehand. So once I read the interview data, so maybe I should mention what was in the interview. So it was, I asked them about

10:04 - aspirations in let's say three, four phases of their lives. So there was this, their aspirations in their home countries before they left, and their aspirations in a transition country, if they lived there for more than six months, if, and if that's the case, because there are some who did not live for more than six months in a transition country, the first year in Switzerland, now and the future. So I asked them about to talk about the aspirations, but also we spoke about other things such as their,

10:34 - social network, et cetera. The main result of this paper is this low ambition equilibrium. So if I need to summarize it, basically what it means is that on one hand we have all these policies, be it, integration policy design and policy and education policy, the promote the kind of aspirations that would lead to, quick labor market integration, basically, that would lead for to financial independence and for refugees to get a job

11:06 - and to get out of the social aid system. So this is the main motivation. so there is not much, I would say interest in promoting very ambitious aspirations or plans that would maybe be implemented, that would need more time to be implemented. But this is the main, the main motivation. That's one part of the low ambition equilibrium. Now, the second part is the refugees. so refugees for many reasons, because again,

11:35 - because of the influence of these policies, what they went through, during the, asylum procedure, I interviewed people who've been in this face of asylum procedure for three, four years. You know, it does a lot to you when you're in this limbo state for so long. And then you have the integration policies. I do present them a little bit for Switzerland. There is a high focus on vocational training and high focus on this quick label market, access.

12:02 - and also you have these, you have this system where if you wanna go to university, it's very complicated. There are many, hurdles, et cetera. So this is refugees. They have to face this. At the same time, they have to face their personal circumstances. For example, people who have their, their families in, in their home countries or the, in the countries of origin, you know, they've maybe struggling with many other things.

12:29 - So, and also many of them, they just tired of being constantly battling constantly in a, you know, in a confrontation state. So they're like, okay, you know what? I, I just want, a normal life. I want some sense of normalcy. And I, if you want me to get a job, I will also, you know, I, I will go in that direction as well. So here we see that the aspirations, regardless if they're very, ambitious,

12:54 - they're not really promoted, and the kind of many of them, they go alone. You know, they go in this direction. And the result of this combination on one side, all these policies and the expectations, et cetera. And then the refugees, both how they, the, they experience these policies, but also the personal, circumstances converge into creating what I call the law, ambition equilibrium.

13:23 - The policies, how they are designed today, they do not, promote, capitalizing on the potential of refugees. There is a big pressure. So what is considered to be a good integration is basically someone who is no more dependent on social aid, someone who has a job. And I think we need to kind of also, critically question this idea of, yeah,

13:51 - because many studies, they talk about refugees having, one of the lowest employment rate among the population or, or among migrants. So do we consider that it's a good thing that they, they have any, any type of job, or we should also question what kind of job they have. Does this job, fit into the potential of these people? Because yes, now in the short run, it's good. Now they have a job, their, their normal, no more dependent on social aid.

14:23 - But what are the long-term, implications of this policy? Would this just, foster inequalities in society? So that, this is a question I cannot answer because, you know, the, the people I interviewed for, most of them they lived in, in Switzerland for less than 10 years. And I think to answer this type of question, we really need to talk to people who have been here for, for a long time. And also, one of, I would say the implications is

14:50 - that we can see that we cannot really talk about integration policy and successful integration without, linking this to other policies such as migration policy, education policy, et cetera. Everything is intertwined. And, and we can also see that these policies, the, the, the kind of work against each others, you know, we have the discourse of integration policy, which yes, we need to be integrated, et cetera.

15:22 - who put a lot of pressure on refugees themselves need to learn the language, et cetera. But what is, what kind of conditions are there? and then we have the migration policies, which becoming even more, restrictive. And at the same time, you expect people to integrate. And yes, people, they wanna go to university, get education, but then when they go to university, it's very complicated. So we see that this poli, you cannot really talk about integration without talking

15:49 - also about other policies and making sure that they work together and they don't work against each other. And also, I, I think one major implication of this study is that, I have in another, it's not published, but I just speak about, we need to have more inclusive integration policies. Because I mean, that's why sometimes people, they don't like talking about integration, but about inclusion in general.

16:12 - Because yes, you can have these policies that pretend to want to integrate people faster, whatever it's successfully, but then when you look at them, they're not really inclusive. They just, I think there is 1, 1 1 point that is very important. When we look at, I look at many integration policies. We see that we, they treat refugees as one hi one homogeneous group. It's like, okay, these are refugees. They're here.

16:39 - we want them to be integrated in the level market very fast. This is how you do it, vocational training, or you get a job directly. But these are people who have, they're not have one group. It's a heterogeneous group of people with different backgrounds. They come from different countries. I think it's very important to take this into consideration.

16:58 - And instead of talking about integration, talking about inclusive policies can be inclusive migration policy, education policy, and where everyone in society should be, should feel, like concerned by, by this inclusion, it's not just the role of this organization in charge of implementing integration policy. It's the role of everyone, of the universities, of all the institute of employers who play an important role.

17:27 - Everyone in society is concerned. And without having everyone on, on board and making them understand that they are also in charge of implementing this inclusive policies, they, they will be, it'll be very hard to talk about successful inclusion or integration.

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