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Amanda Cahill-Ripley discusses the value-added of addressing poverty and related violations of economic, social and cultural rights (ESCRs) using alternative and additional ‘justice’ mechanisms drawn from the practice of transitional justice, in particular truth and reconciliation commissions (TRCs).

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 8, 2024

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This video video discusses the implications of austerity measures instituted after the 2008 financial crisis, particularly their negative effects on vulnerable populations in the UK and Europe. The author, a human rights lawyer, emphasizes the importance of recognizing economic, social, and cultural rights alongside civil and political rights, noting that rights related to adequate living standards—such as food, housing, and education—are equally critical.

The discussion highlights the dual nature of poverty as both a cause and a consequence of human rights violations, exacerbated by cuts to social support and benefits. It also points to the struggles faced by working individuals who are impacted by pay freezes and increased living costs. Traditional judicial mechanisms have proven limited in addressing the widespread nature of these issues, suggesting a need for broader and more effective approaches to justice.

To tackle poverty, the text introduces the concept of Poverty Truth Commissions, which draw from community-based reconciliation models. These commissions empower individuals with lived experiences of poverty to share their truths and influence policymakers, fostering changes that address their unique challenges. This video video notes that these commissions have grown across the UK, but advocates for incorporating a human rights framework into their work to further empower communities and strengthen advocacy efforts.

The author concludes by expressing the desire for research and training on economic and social rights to enhance the commissions' impact, noting positive developments in places like Scotland where these rights are being integrated into domestic law.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.225 --> 00:04.205
It was really after the financial crisis, around 2008.

00:04.345 --> 00:07.285
And we saw, you know, the imposition of austerity measures

00:07.865 --> 00:11.685
taking hold, not just in the UK but across Europe.

00:12.345 --> 00:14.685
And as a human rights lawyer, we're starting

00:14.745 --> 00:17.605
to see the impact of these austerity measures more

00:17.605 --> 00:19.965
and more on vulnerable populations.

00:20.825 --> 00:23.525
So really we were looking at this kind of picture

00:23.745 --> 00:24.885
of deepening poverty

00:25.265 --> 00:27.085
and thinking, okay,

00:27.715 --> 00:30.165
what can be done about this from a human rights perspective?

00:30.705 --> 00:33.445
So that was really the context for the paper and, and,

00:33.465 --> 00:35.085
and trying to think about, you know,

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what can human rights really bring to this, to this,

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worsening situation, right?

00:40.945 --> 00:42.565
So when we talk about economic, social

00:42.585 --> 00:46.085
and cultural rights, what we're talking about is, it,

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the clues in the name rights of an economic,

00:48.365 --> 00:49.605
social and cultural nature.

00:49.825 --> 00:53.245
But when we tend to think of human rights, most people tend

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to think about what we call civil and political rights.

00:56.465 --> 00:59.845
So things like the right to vote or freedom from torture.

01:00.585 --> 01:02.165
But we have this set of rights

01:02.165 --> 01:04.365
that are also embedded in international law.

01:04.945 --> 01:07.405
And these, include things like the right

01:07.405 --> 01:10.285
to an adequate standard of living, which is the right

01:10.285 --> 01:13.605
to food, the right to housing, the right

01:13.605 --> 01:16.125
to water things like the right to an education.

01:16.785 --> 01:18.845
So we have this other set of rights, and,

01:18.865 --> 01:21.645
and they're really, they can be known as basic rights

01:21.645 --> 01:24.565
or subsistence rights, but they're really just as important

01:24.705 --> 01:27.605
and just as legally, codified as

01:27.835 --> 01:29.725
what most people think of human rights as.

01:29.905 --> 01:32.205
So if we think about the, the nature of these rights

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around food and water

01:33.825 --> 01:35.645
and material goods, we can see

01:35.645 --> 01:38.725
that if we look at poverty from a human rights perspective,

01:39.385 --> 01:42.685
we are talking about actually the denial of the enjoyment

01:42.685 --> 01:46.165
of those rights by certain members of the population.

01:46.665 --> 01:49.045
So it tends to affect the most vulnerable, it tends

01:49.045 --> 01:50.285
to be those, those people

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that are already vulnerable in society,

01:54.225 --> 01:58.725
and maybe experiencing poverty, their, their

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situation can be worsened.

02:00.625 --> 02:04.125
So it, it's, it's poverty is really both a cause

02:04.145 --> 02:07.445
of human rights violations, but also a consequence of them.

02:07.985 --> 02:09.685
So you've got this, this two-sided

02:09.685 --> 02:10.925
relationship with poverty.

02:11.315 --> 02:13.965
Yeah, so, so with the austerity measures, of course,

02:14.015 --> 02:18.165
we've seen that, the state withdraw,

02:18.865 --> 02:21.765
kinds of, social support for people

02:22.065 --> 02:23.365
or limit benefits.

02:23.505 --> 02:25.845
So there's lots of consequences of austerity.

02:26.385 --> 02:29.845
So things like the disability living allowance was reduced,

02:30.585 --> 02:33.245
council tax benefit was abolished,

02:33.825 --> 02:35.725
the bedroom tax was introduced,

02:36.225 --> 02:39.965
and all of these different, changes to benefits are,

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are impacting those that already suffering from,

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from poverty and,

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and, the lower scale, if you like, of the income scale.

02:49.465 --> 02:50.965
But it's also impacted on,

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on the working, on working people.

02:52.545 --> 02:54.725
So it's not just a, a question of benefits,

02:54.755 --> 02:57.365
it's also impacting on those people that,

02:57.545 --> 02:58.725
so you're seeing an increase

02:58.725 --> 03:02.085
In the, the working poor as well, for example,

03:02.085 --> 03:03.805
public sector pay freezes.

03:04.305 --> 03:06.965
So it becomes more and more difficult even for those working

03:07.905 --> 03:10.645
to, to provide for themselves and their families.

03:10.915 --> 03:14.325
When we think about how human rights have, have tried

03:14.325 --> 03:18.765
to address these austerity measures so far, we see a lot of

03:19.275 --> 03:21.525
what we would know as judicial mechanisms

03:21.525 --> 03:25.325
or quasi-judicial mechanisms that have dealt with this, say,

03:25.325 --> 03:28.925
at a UN level or at a regional human rights court level,

03:28.925 --> 03:30.725
like the European Convention of Human Rights

03:30.725 --> 03:32.405
and the European Court,

03:32.425 --> 03:33.645
and its sister committee,

03:33.645 --> 03:35.645
the European Committee on Social Rights,

03:36.345 --> 03:37.725
and they deal with, you know,

03:37.725 --> 03:40.045
individual cases or group cases.

03:41.705 --> 03:44.805
And what struck us at this point was that, you know, the,

03:45.105 --> 03:46.885
the reach of these traditional

03:47.615 --> 03:50.485
legal mechanisms is very individualized.

03:50.905 --> 03:53.165
So when you are talking about large sectors

03:53.165 --> 03:54.765
of the population that have suffered

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or are suffering from these violations, how can,

04:00.025 --> 04:01.725
how can we be effective in terms

04:01.725 --> 04:03.045
of bringing justice for them?

04:04.155 --> 04:07.295
Um, and it's about having that wider reach.

04:08.395 --> 04:11.935
So thinking about this, we, we very much think

04:11.935 --> 04:14.735
as human rights lawyers about criminal justice

04:14.875 --> 04:18.255
and criminal justice, and it underpins most approaches

04:18.795 --> 04:20.815
to dealing with human rights violations.

04:21.435 --> 04:24.015
But we wanted to think more outside of that box

04:24.035 --> 04:26.335
and think about what other forms of justice are there.

04:27.115 --> 04:32.055
So for example, social justice or restorative justice.

04:33.235 --> 04:35.375
So this is where we,

04:35.845 --> 04:39.415
draw very much in the paper upon the idea of truth telling.

04:40.075 --> 04:43.575
Um, and we take this really from transitional justice,

04:43.835 --> 04:46.135
and that is justice mechanisms

04:46.135 --> 04:50.095
that have been put in place following either a conflict,

04:50.435 --> 04:52.095
and trying to move towards peace

04:52.595 --> 04:54.575
or following political repression

04:54.575 --> 04:56.175
and a change in, in government.

04:57.235 --> 04:59.975
So we took the ideas of that truth telling

05:00.155 --> 05:02.775
and that more restorative idea of justice

05:03.435 --> 05:06.375
and applied it to the poverty situation.

05:06.995 --> 05:08.455
So that's, that's the kind

05:08.575 --> 05:10.415
of alternative justice that we looked at.

05:10.635 --> 05:12.055
The obvious place to start then

05:12.055 --> 05:13.735
with tackling poverty was the growth

05:13.755 --> 05:16.295
of this new body called,

05:17.035 --> 05:18.775
the Poverty Truth Commissions.

05:19.355 --> 05:22.375
Now, the Poverty Truth Commission have a lot in common with

05:22.725 --> 05:27.055
what are known as community-based, truth

05:27.095 --> 05:28.455
and Reconciliation Commissions.

05:28.475 --> 05:31.695
And the idea first rung up actually in the USA

05:32.315 --> 05:36.495
and it was something that came from a grassroots response

05:36.555 --> 05:37.655
to racial injustice.

05:38.595 --> 05:40.215
So there are lots of different examples

05:40.215 --> 05:41.255
that we draw on in the paper,

05:42.115 --> 05:45.255
but the Poverty Truth Commission is really the first time we

05:45.255 --> 05:46.855
see it in the UK context.

05:48.515 --> 05:51.375
So the Poverty Truth Commission's overarching aim

05:52.115 --> 05:54.975
is based on this idea, obviously of tackling poverty

05:55.195 --> 05:57.990
and making it, trying to, trying to address it

05:57.990 --> 06:01.375
and change policy and make it better for those people

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that have that lived experience of poverty.

06:04.835 --> 06:07.775
But their motto is taken from the South African Truth

06:07.775 --> 06:09.295
and Reconciliation Commission,

06:09.875 --> 06:14.855
and it is nothing about us, without us is for us.

06:16.035 --> 06:20.855
So really taking this idea of it being led

06:20.875 --> 06:22.935
by the community that are most affected.

06:23.915 --> 06:26.895
And the idea is that those people get a chance to

06:27.485 --> 06:30.255
tell the truth about their experiences, to share that truth,

06:30.995 --> 06:34.935
to talk to people, in positions of power, whether

06:34.935 --> 06:37.975
that be local government, or,

06:38.155 --> 06:42.615
or, their MP or whoever it is to try

06:42.635 --> 06:44.815
and influence that debate to try

06:44.815 --> 06:47.495
and drive change within their own communities.

06:47.995 --> 06:50.615
So we see the first, the first Truth Commission was actually

06:50.635 --> 06:54.615
set up in Glasgow, so it was back in 2009,

06:54.635 --> 06:57.895
and it was a, a localized response to some of the worst,

06:58.275 --> 07:02.255
poverty and some of the social housing in Glasgow.

07:02.955 --> 07:05.935
Um, and they worked on three key areas,

07:06.065 --> 07:08.175
which may not be obvious to people, which was

07:09.125 --> 07:11.415
firstly challenging stereotypes

07:11.555 --> 07:15.415
and stigma around poverty, overcoming violence

07:16.075 --> 07:17.295
within the community.

07:17.325 --> 07:20.455
That was a consequence of, of stress in the community,

07:21.315 --> 07:25.015
but also on kinship care, which was where you had a lot of,

07:25.075 --> 07:27.335
of families relying on grandparents

07:27.555 --> 07:30.135
or extended family to look after children

07:30.295 --> 07:32.535
because they were trying to work four

07:32.535 --> 07:34.655
or five jobs to try and make ends meet.

07:35.435 --> 07:38.745
So, quite surprising, I think to some people

07:38.855 --> 07:40.385
what those priorities were.

07:40.485 --> 07:43.345
And, and what came out of that was, yes, we really do need

07:43.345 --> 07:44.625
to hear from the voices of the people

07:45.295 --> 07:47.305
that are experiencing this,

07:47.305 --> 07:50.305
because I think if a, a group had sat down perhaps

07:50.325 --> 07:51.465
of experts and said,

07:51.465 --> 07:53.265
what are the priorities in tackling poverty?

07:53.855 --> 07:56.505
They wouldn't have come up with the same priorities.

07:57.525 --> 07:58.945
So that's where it came from,

07:59.285 --> 08:02.505
and it's grown across, across the UK now.

08:02.505 --> 08:05.705
I think there are now 27 Poverty Truth commissions

08:05.705 --> 08:06.825
across the United Kingdom.

08:06.885 --> 08:09.705
That's even more than when we, wrote the paper.

08:10.525 --> 08:14.545
Um, and they're all, they're all, now connected

08:14.545 --> 08:16.945
through a new Poverty Truth network as well,

08:17.275 --> 08:19.305
which is seeking to coordinate the work

08:19.305 --> 08:21.905
of all these different, truth commissions.

08:22.205 --> 08:23.345
The first thing I should say is

08:23.345 --> 08:25.985
that Poverty Truth Commissions are doing excellent work.

08:26.565 --> 08:30.945
Um, and, and the paper By by No Means is, is trying to say

08:30.945 --> 08:32.225
that they're not doing excellent work.

08:32.285 --> 08:34.225
So I need to clarify that first of all.

08:35.165 --> 08:38.065
But what we are arguing the paper very much is

08:38.065 --> 08:40.785
that at the moment they don't tend to use

08:41.385 --> 08:44.345
a human rights framework in their campaigning,

08:44.345 --> 08:45.545
in their advocacy.

08:46.605 --> 08:50.025
And we think that it would be really helpful

08:50.445 --> 08:53.545
and more transformative if they could use a human

08:53.545 --> 08:54.745
rights lens as part

08:54.745 --> 08:57.085
Of their work with communities.

08:57.475 --> 09:00.765
Because by using economic, social,

09:00.825 --> 09:03.365
and cultural rights, we already have a legal framework.

09:03.905 --> 09:05.365
And that can be empowering

09:05.365 --> 09:09.125
because you're not just saying, I need, you know,

09:09.285 --> 09:12.805
a right to food, you're saying it's my entitlement.

09:12.975 --> 09:16.965
There is a duty on the state to provide adequate food.

09:17.465 --> 09:22.065
So by using economic and social rights, it's transformative.

09:22.065 --> 09:25.705
Because it's empowering, it takes away that charitable

09:26.495 --> 09:27.585
framework,

09:27.645 --> 09:29.625
and makes it more about entitlement

09:29.625 --> 09:31.185
within a legal framework.

09:32.285 --> 09:34.385
So what we would really like to do is

09:34.385 --> 09:35.985
to do some more research to work

09:35.985 --> 09:39.745
with Poverty Truth Commissions, to give them training

09:40.165 --> 09:41.185
around economic

09:41.205 --> 09:43.865
and social rights around what their rights are

09:44.645 --> 09:47.145
and how they can use them, around

09:47.145 --> 09:51.145
what the UK's current obligations are under international

09:51.205 --> 09:53.185
law, because they do have obligations.

09:54.015 --> 09:56.865
Unfortunately, we don't have those obligations in our

09:57.105 --> 09:59.345
domestic law in England, but we,

10:00.005 --> 10:03.025
but we see in the devolved nations really positive

10:03.075 --> 10:04.305
steps to develop this.

10:04.365 --> 10:08.185
So, for example, Scotland have just passed the Human rights

10:08.185 --> 10:11.345
bill, which will incorporate economic, social,

10:11.345 --> 10:13.265
and cultural rights into the domestic legal

10:13.325 --> 10:14.785
system in Scotland.

10:15.165 --> 10:18.425
So there are lots of ways which we could strengthen the work

10:18.425 --> 10:21.585
of the Poverty Truth Commissions if we apply this legal

10:21.735 --> 10:22.025
lens.

00:00 - It was really after the financial crisis, around 2008. And we saw, you know, the imposition of austerity measures taking hold, not just in the UK but across Europe. And as a human rights lawyer, we're starting to see the impact of these austerity measures more and more on vulnerable populations.

00:20 - So really we were looking at this kind of picture of deepening poverty and thinking, okay, what can be done about this from a human rights perspective? So that was really the context for the paper and, and, and trying to think about, you know, what can human rights really bring to this, to this, worsening situation, right? So when we talk about economic, social and cultural rights, what we're talking about is, it,

00:46 - the clues in the name rights of an economic, social and cultural nature. But when we tend to think of human rights, most people tend to think about what we call civil and political rights. So things like the right to vote or freedom from torture. But we have this set of rights that are also embedded in international law. And these, include things like the right to an adequate standard of living, which is the right to food, the right to housing, the right

01:13 - to water things like the right to an education. So we have this other set of rights, and, and they're really, they can be known as basic rights or subsistence rights, but they're really just as important and just as legally, codified as what most people think of human rights as. So if we think about the, the nature of these rights around food and water and material goods, we can see that if we look at poverty from a human rights perspective,

01:39 - we are talking about actually the denial of the enjoyment of those rights by certain members of the population. So it tends to affect the most vulnerable, it tends to be those, those people that are already vulnerable in society, and maybe experiencing poverty, their, their situation can be worsened. So it, it's, it's poverty is really both a cause of human rights violations, but also a consequence of them. So you've got this, this two-sided

02:09 - relationship with poverty. Yeah, so, so with the austerity measures, of course, we've seen that, the state withdraw, kinds of, social support for people or limit benefits. So there's lots of consequences of austerity. So things like the disability living allowance was reduced, council tax benefit was abolished, the bedroom tax was introduced, and all of these different, changes to benefits are,

02:40 - are impacting those that already suffering from, from poverty and, and, the lower scale, if you like, of the income scale. But it's also impacted on, on the working, on working people. So it's not just a, a question of benefits, it's also impacting on those people that, so you're seeing an increase In the, the working poor as well, for example, public sector pay freezes.

03:04 - So it becomes more and more difficult even for those working to, to provide for themselves and their families. When we think about how human rights have, have tried to address these austerity measures so far, we see a lot of what we would know as judicial mechanisms or quasi-judicial mechanisms that have dealt with this, say, at a UN level or at a regional human rights court level, like the European Convention of Human Rights and the European Court, and its sister committee,

03:33 - the European Committee on Social Rights, and they deal with, you know, individual cases or group cases. And what struck us at this point was that, you know, the, the reach of these traditional legal mechanisms is very individualized. So when you are talking about large sectors of the population that have suffered or are suffering from these violations, how can, how can we be effective in terms

04:01 - of bringing justice for them? and it's about having that wider reach. So thinking about this, we, we very much think as human rights lawyers about criminal justice and criminal justice, and it underpins most approaches to dealing with human rights violations. But we wanted to think more outside of that box and think about what other forms of justice are there. So for example, social justice or restorative justice. So this is where we,

04:35 - draw very much in the paper upon the idea of truth telling. and we take this really from transitional justice, and that is justice mechanisms that have been put in place following either a conflict, and trying to move towards peace or following political repression and a change in, in government. So we took the ideas of that truth telling and that more restorative idea of justice and applied it to the poverty situation.

05:06 - So that's, that's the kind of alternative justice that we looked at. The obvious place to start then with tackling poverty was the growth of this new body called, the Poverty Truth Commissions. Now, the Poverty Truth Commission have a lot in common with what are known as community-based, truth and Reconciliation Commissions. And the idea first rung up actually in the USA

05:32 - and it was something that came from a grassroots response to racial injustice. So there are lots of different examples that we draw on in the paper, but the Poverty Truth Commission is really the first time we see it in the UK context. So the Poverty Truth Commission's overarching aim is based on this idea, obviously of tackling poverty and making it, trying to, trying to address it and change policy and make it better for those people

06:01 - that have that lived experience of poverty. But their motto is taken from the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and it is nothing about us, without us is for us. So really taking this idea of it being led by the community that are most affected. And the idea is that those people get a chance to tell the truth about their experiences, to share that truth, to talk to people, in positions of power, whether that be local government, or,

06:38 - or, their MP or whoever it is to try and influence that debate to try and drive change within their own communities. So we see the first, the first Truth Commission was actually set up in Glasgow, so it was back in 2009, and it was a, a localized response to some of the worst, poverty and some of the social housing in Glasgow. and they worked on three key areas, which may not be obvious to people, which was firstly challenging stereotypes

07:11 - and stigma around poverty, overcoming violence within the community. That was a consequence of, of stress in the community, but also on kinship care, which was where you had a lot of, of families relying on grandparents or extended family to look after children because they were trying to work four or five jobs to try and make ends meet. So, quite surprising, I think to some people what those priorities were.

07:40 - And, and what came out of that was, yes, we really do need to hear from the voices of the people that are experiencing this, because I think if a, a group had sat down perhaps of experts and said, what are the priorities in tackling poverty? They wouldn't have come up with the same priorities. So that's where it came from, and it's grown across, across the UK now. I think there are now 27 Poverty Truth commissions

08:05 - across the United Kingdom. That's even more than when we, wrote the paper. and they're all, they're all, now connected through a new Poverty Truth network as well, which is seeking to coordinate the work of all these different, truth commissions. The first thing I should say is that Poverty Truth Commissions are doing excellent work. and, and the paper By by No Means is, is trying to say that they're not doing excellent work.

08:32 - So I need to clarify that first of all. But what we are arguing the paper very much is that at the moment they don't tend to use a human rights framework in their campaigning, in their advocacy. And we think that it would be really helpful and more transformative if they could use a human rights lens as part Of their work with communities. Because by using economic, social,

09:00 - and cultural rights, we already have a legal framework. And that can be empowering because you're not just saying, I need, you know, a right to food, you're saying it's my entitlement. There is a duty on the state to provide adequate food. So by using economic and social rights, it's transformative. Because it's empowering, it takes away that charitable framework, and makes it more about entitlement within a legal framework.

09:32 - So what we would really like to do is to do some more research to work with Poverty Truth Commissions, to give them training around economic and social rights around what their rights are and how they can use them, around what the UK's current obligations are under international law, because they do have obligations. Unfortunately, we don't have those obligations in our domestic law in England, but we,

10:00 - but we see in the devolved nations really positive steps to develop this. So, for example, Scotland have just passed the Human rights bill, which will incorporate economic, social, and cultural rights into the domestic legal system in Scotland. So there are lots of ways which we could strengthen the work of the Poverty Truth Commissions if we apply this legal lens.

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