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Wasps, and Gadflies: The Role of Insect Similes in Homer, Aristophanes, and Plato

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John Harris discusses how Plato, influenced by epic and comedy, uses the gadfly simile to elicit heroic qualities not typically associated with this insect.

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 30, 2024

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This video reflects on the author's scholarly journey involving the works of Plato, Aristotle, and Homer, particularly focusing on Plato's "Apology of Socrates." The author discusses Socrates' characterization as a "gadfly," which is an unconventional choice for defending oneself against charges of corrupting Athenian youth, given the negative connotations associated with the insect. Despite this, the gadfly metaphor emphasizes the role of Socrates in prompting critical thought among his fellow citizens.

The author explores how Homer and Aristophanes also utilize insect imagery, illustrating a broader literary tradition where lowly creatures are sometimes used to elevate heroic themes. This video delves into how Homer compares the tenacity of a fly to the courage of a warrior, suggesting that even insignificant beings can play pivotal roles in significant narratives.

Ultimately, the author argues that philosophical and artistic figures challenge complacency, provoking thought and action for the greater good. The notion that "one should not judge by appearances" is highlighted, suggesting that there is deeper value found in individuals like Socrates, who, despite their unappealing exterior, contribute to the intellectual rigor of society. The author aims to show parallels between the works of Homer and Plato, underscoring the enduring relevance of their ideas in contemporary discourse.

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Here are some articles that resonate with the themes and discussions presented in your video:

1. **"The Gadfly Effect: Socrates and the Philosophical Tradition"**
This article explores the significance of Socrates as a philosophical provocateur, drawing parallels between his role in Athenian society and the gadfly metaphor. It highlights the importance of critical thought and its implications for democracy and civic responsibility.

2. **"Insect Imagery in Ancient Literature: From Homer to Plato"**
A comprehensive study on the use of insect imagery in ancient Greek literature, this article examines how various authors, including Homer and Aristophanes, employ such symbols to convey deeper meanings about heroism, tenacity, and societal critique.

3. **"Philosophy and Literature: Bridging the Divide"**
This piece discusses the intersections of philosophical and literary discourse, particularly how figures like Socrates and Homer challenge social norms and provoke intellectual engagement among their audiences.

4. **"The Role of the Outsider in Classical Philosophy"**
An analysis of how figures considered outsiders or unconventional (like Socrates) enrich philosophical dialogue, this article emphasizes the value of questioning societal norms in the pursuit of knowledge and truth.

5. **"Courage in Small Packages: Symbolism of Insects in Greek Epics"**
This article examines symbolic representations of insects in Greek epics, particularly how they relate to themes of courage, resilience, and the power of seemingly insignificant beings in shaping narratives and ideas.

6. **"Challenging Complacency: The Philosophers and Poets of Ancient Greece"**
A discussion on how Greek philosophers and poets have historically served as catalysts for critical reflection and social change, the article elaborates on the notion that intellectual rigor often arises from unexpected or marginalized voices.

7. **"The Apology and the Art of Defense: Socratic Method in Literature"**
An exploration of Socrates' defense in Plato's "Apology," this article looks at the rhetorical strategies employed by Socrates and their implications for contemporary discussions on ethics, justice, and moral philosophy.

These articles can enhance your understanding of the cultural and philosophical traditions surrounding the works of Socrates, Plato, and Homer, while also drawing connections to broader themes of critical inquiry and the use of symbolic imagery in literature.

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I've been, working on Plato, Aristo.

00:03.745 --> 00:05.525
He in Homer for quite some time.

00:06.185 --> 00:08.765
Uh, and I always had a kind of interest in esop.

00:09.025 --> 00:12.405
And, so all of these things came together,

00:12.745 --> 00:15.605
way back when I worked on my massive thesis.

00:15.745 --> 00:17.125
Insect imagery in the plays

00:17.125 --> 00:19.285
of Aristophanes sounds a bit dull,

00:19.305 --> 00:22.005
but in fact, aristo, he's this great

00:22.675 --> 00:26.045
fantasist would take these small, insignificant heroes

00:26.145 --> 00:28.125
and turn them into the overlords

00:28.125 --> 00:29.845
of each world that they created.

00:30.025 --> 00:31.525
So lots of fun. Uh,

00:31.665 --> 00:34.405
and so wasps, for example, is a title of one of his plays,

00:34.535 --> 00:36.085
birds frogs.

00:36.085 --> 00:39.605
And then in one the piece, he has a protagonist

00:40.385 --> 00:42.885
fatten up a dung beetle in order to fly up

00:42.885 --> 00:47.525
to Olympus on the back of it, like hon on, Pegasus,

00:47.625 --> 00:50.205
in order to negotiate a piece, for Athens

00:50.205 --> 00:51.965
and Sparta using Zeus as a mediator.

00:51.985 --> 00:56.405
So all that by way of saying insects, are fun

00:56.665 --> 01:00.565
to use and animals are fun to use to create lots of,

01:01.005 --> 01:02.605
interesting things for human beings.

01:02.995 --> 01:07.165
What essentially I did was, my main focus was Aristo,

01:07.185 --> 01:10.085
or sorry, was Plato's Apology of Socrates.

01:10.145 --> 01:14.165
And the most famous, image of it is, of course, Socrates

01:14.425 --> 01:15.485
as gadfly.

01:16.265 --> 01:19.245
Uh, and yet it seemed to me an odd choice if you want

01:19.245 --> 01:22.525
to in fact get off of the charge of, you know,

01:22.535 --> 01:24.085
corrupting the youth of Athens

01:24.085 --> 01:25.565
and introducing new gods in that.

01:25.665 --> 01:28.085
And if you wanna win your case, why is it

01:28.085 --> 01:29.525
that you would choose this bile

01:29.525 --> 01:33.365
and disgusting insect when you figure Athens

01:33.385 --> 01:34.565
as this noble steed

01:34.705 --> 01:36.685
and all you're doing is constantly biting it

01:36.685 --> 01:38.165
and, snapping at it

01:38.225 --> 01:39.725
and annoying it such

01:39.725 --> 01:42.205
that it'll ultimately get swatted and get killed?

01:42.785 --> 01:44.525
Odd, it seemed unusual to do.

01:44.665 --> 01:48.285
And very clearly, Socrates does get executed.

01:48.305 --> 01:49.445
He has to drink the hemlock.

01:49.445 --> 01:52.445
So in some sense, it,

01:52.595 --> 01:54.245
it's a failure as a defense speech.

01:54.275 --> 01:58.005
It's a great, defense of the life of philosophy.

01:58.345 --> 01:59.605
And the gadfly, of course,

01:59.705 --> 02:02.605
is now figured extremely prominently in, in the West.

02:03.025 --> 02:04.205
Uh, we use it all the time.

02:04.225 --> 02:05.845
If you look up any dictionary entry

02:05.935 --> 02:08.285
after that initial dictionary entry

02:08.285 --> 02:12.365
of it being like a horsely, the second entry describes it as

02:12.965 --> 02:15.205
somebody who persistently annoys somebody,

02:15.205 --> 02:18.525
particularly in political venues, to get things going.

02:18.985 --> 02:21.165
Uh, I wanted to look particularly at

02:21.585 --> 02:22.645
why he would choose that.

02:23.345 --> 02:25.885
And since I'd worked already on aristot needs and Homer,

02:26.305 --> 02:29.005
and had seen their usage of insects

02:29.545 --> 02:30.765
and, imagery

02:31.035 --> 02:32.605
that I thought there might be something there.

02:32.705 --> 02:35.245
So that was my initial catalyst, I guess.

02:35.785 --> 02:37.165
No, that's, that's a very good question.

02:37.225 --> 02:39.925
And so essentially what you have, if you go all the way back

02:39.925 --> 02:42.045
to Homer, he's the beginning of Western literature

02:42.105 --> 02:46.405
and, similes and metaphors are everywhere in Homer.

02:46.625 --> 02:49.485
And what's interesting is he uses a lot of animals,

02:49.625 --> 02:52.965
but normally what he does is he uses, say, a lion

02:53.105 --> 02:55.645
as your prime example of comparing a hero.

02:56.065 --> 02:58.885
Uh, Achilles fell upon the enemy like

02:58.925 --> 03:01.245
A lion upon, you know, some animals, right?

03:01.245 --> 03:04.205
So that's the kind of thing. And you use these kind of bold

03:04.225 --> 03:06.605
and noble and courageous, creatures

03:07.065 --> 03:08.645
to elevate your hero.

03:09.425 --> 03:12.205
Yet interestingly, Homer will on occasion use

03:12.875 --> 03:17.085
less noble animals such as wasps or flies.

03:17.865 --> 03:20.525
Uh, and some aren't going to be flattering portraits,

03:20.525 --> 03:21.765
and I won't go into all those details,

03:21.825 --> 03:25.525
but on occasion, he does choose a particular

03:26.185 --> 03:27.485
low insect like a fly,

03:27.985 --> 03:30.885
and uses it to, in fact, elevate a hero.

03:30.985 --> 03:33.765
So in one particular instance that tied in very nicely

03:33.835 --> 03:38.485
with Plato's, apology of Socrates was Menis, who is

03:38.745 --> 03:41.725
or was married to Helen, of course, Helen of Troy, chief

03:41.725 --> 03:43.405
for whom the whole war got going.

03:43.905 --> 03:48.005
Uh, he is now in book 17 acting as a kind of antagonist.

03:48.225 --> 03:50.925
And what he ends up doing is he tries to rescue,

03:51.025 --> 03:53.085
the body of a slain comrade.

03:53.545 --> 03:56.085
Uh, but he's up against all these Trojans fighting him.

03:56.505 --> 03:58.445
So Athena appears to him,

03:58.785 --> 04:02.525
and she imbues him with extra power, extra strength.

04:03.105 --> 04:04.205
But what she ends up doing,

04:04.205 --> 04:08.165
or what Homer ends up doing, is describing the kind

04:08.165 --> 04:11.925
of daring that she puts into mans the daring of a fly

04:12.555 --> 04:16.085
that despite constantly being swatted at by,

04:16.095 --> 04:19.285
human beings persists in trying to do what it wants to do.

04:19.465 --> 04:21.725
So weirdly, perhaps,

04:21.925 --> 04:25.485
unexpectedly you have men aus now likened

04:25.705 --> 04:28.925
to a fly rather than to what you might have expected, a lion

04:29.065 --> 04:30.685
or some wolf or something like that.

04:31.265 --> 04:34.205
So we see it in, the case of Homer,

04:34.205 --> 04:37.725
where he can use these lowly incept for lofty ends,

04:38.015 --> 04:39.485
which goes against the grain.

04:39.545 --> 04:43.405
So in fact, what I try to show in my, article is that

04:44.105 --> 04:47.885
not just Plato, but also his epic, predecessor,

04:48.175 --> 04:51.525
Homer can do something very similar to what Plato does

04:51.675 --> 04:54.605
with the gadfly, and then that's an antidepressant.

04:54.605 --> 04:57.205
Then you get Aristophanes in his comic version

04:57.215 --> 05:01.005
where the wasp, are usually seen as irascible,

05:01.005 --> 05:02.205
and, they're annoying

05:02.225 --> 05:03.925
and they're gonna constantly hassle you.

05:03.945 --> 05:07.645
But, Aristophanes will also highlight the fact

05:07.645 --> 05:09.965
that the wasps were used,

05:10.105 --> 05:11.965
or at least the, the Athenians,

05:11.965 --> 05:13.485
the old men describe themselves

05:13.505 --> 05:17.045
as wasps protecting their homeland against the Persian

05:17.045 --> 05:18.965
invaders a couple of generations before.

05:19.465 --> 05:23.765
So wasps are now figured as homeland security to defend

05:23.765 --> 05:27.645
and protect the homeland against any outside Maring forces.

05:28.585 --> 05:30.405
So you get this strange image

05:30.405 --> 05:33.405
of an insect doing something noble.

05:33.705 --> 05:35.165
Uh, and valorous,

05:35.325 --> 05:37.925
a Marshall prowess is all tied in with this.

05:38.505 --> 05:41.405
So when it comes to Socrates gadfly,

05:41.925 --> 05:44.405
although he's this annoying, disgusting insect

05:44.405 --> 05:45.805
that can attack and bite you

05:45.845 --> 05:48.525
and cause you to bleed, he's doing it for a purpose.

05:48.675 --> 05:52.365
He's doing it to, in fact, rouse us as human beings,

05:52.365 --> 05:56.365
more generally speaking now from our lethargy for our, from

05:56.365 --> 05:58.885
what con called our dogmatic slumbers,

05:59.145 --> 06:03.165
and to get us to think harder about we, what we're trying

06:03.165 --> 06:06.365
to do, in life, and not just sleep, walk through it.

06:06.545 --> 06:08.645
You know, as I mentioned at the very beginning,

06:08.705 --> 06:11.765
we still use the image of the gadfly today, right?

06:12.385 --> 06:15.685
Uh, and so this has powerful resonance and,

06:16.185 --> 06:18.925
but we also are well aware of everybody knows,

06:18.925 --> 06:20.805
or at least had any experience on a farm,

06:21.185 --> 06:22.685
or, you know, what a gadfly is.

06:22.685 --> 06:23.725
You know what a horse fly is.

06:23.835 --> 06:26.525
They, can really pester, they can really annoy.

06:26.715 --> 06:29.645
They can cause horses to, get out of control and wild.

06:30.065 --> 06:32.045
Uh, so they're kind of dangerous things,

06:32.545 --> 06:34.485
and we do have to watch them,

06:34.585 --> 06:36.925
and we have to, in some sense protect against 'em.

06:36.925 --> 06:40.565
And yet at the same time, they can be essential,

06:40.675 --> 06:43.005
when we get a bit too complacent with ourselves.

06:44.005 --> 06:47.205
Socrates themself a very polarizing figure,

06:48.115 --> 06:50.365
very fam famously Babington McCauley,

06:50.625 --> 06:53.805
the 19th century wig historian in a letter

06:54.325 --> 06:56.685
describes reading the Socratic Dialogues,

06:56.685 --> 06:59.845
and he goes, the more I read about Socrates,

06:59.865 --> 07:00.965
the less I'm surprised

07:00.965 --> 07:02.645
that they actually wanted to poison him.

07:03.185 --> 07:06.445
So he saw, Socrates as this horrific figure.

07:06.745 --> 07:11.045
Uh, whereas the whole point I think here is that artists

07:11.385 --> 07:15.925
and philosophers want to challenge us, want to get us out

07:15.925 --> 07:18.885
of our, as it were, of the ruts that we are all in.

07:19.345 --> 07:23.525
And in a polarizing world, you know, no one is all villain.

07:23.745 --> 07:26.725
No one is all hero. We're all a mixture of these things.

07:26.945 --> 07:29.685
And if you can take a figure, lake Socrates,

07:29.945 --> 07:31.685
who was ugly, he was kind of nasty.

07:31.865 --> 07:34.685
He didn't wash, he was unshare, all of these things.

07:34.745 --> 07:39.525
And yet, he ends up being this symbol of the,

07:39.525 --> 07:42.005
as it were, internal world of our minds

07:42.005 --> 07:43.285
and our thoughts as opposed to,

07:43.345 --> 07:46.685
so let's focus maybe on what's inside as opposed to what's,

07:47.145 --> 07:48.525
just on the outside.

07:49.065 --> 07:53.405
So more broadly speaking, I believe that the whole point

07:53.545 --> 07:56.445
of this, if you want to draw an isop moral from this

07:56.445 --> 08:01.325
particular fable, is that let's not judge by appearances.

08:01.325 --> 08:04.925
Let's not judge, by,

08:05.395 --> 08:07.205
what we might think is the initial effect,

08:07.225 --> 08:10.405
but stand back more broadly and kind of suss things out

08:10.945 --> 08:13.045
and accept the fact that yes, artists

08:13.145 --> 08:15.365
and philosophers might use something to provoke us,

08:15.665 --> 08:18.245
but they do it ultimately for our own good, whether

08:18.245 --> 08:20.405
or not we believe that to be the case.

08:20.945 --> 08:23.245
Uh, and quite often these guys are knocked out

08:23.345 --> 08:26.125
and taken out, just finished actually submitting something

08:26.185 --> 08:27.365
I'm still waiting to hear back.

08:27.425 --> 08:30.125
But, another take on this idea,

08:30.265 --> 08:33.525
of the tragic comic figure that is Socrates.

08:33.525 --> 08:36.285
So, in book, one of the Id

08:36.925 --> 08:38.885
Achilles ends up getting in an argument with,

08:38.945 --> 08:41.205
AGA Menon wants to kill him, but is stalk,

08:41.465 --> 08:44.045
but he has a big harangue with him, and he belittles him

08:44.045 --> 08:47.525
and berates him famously in book two, this,

08:47.625 --> 08:51.845
the Ugliest Man to come to, Troy, a fellow by the name

08:51.845 --> 08:54.805
of Thees, essentially makes the very same

08:55.165 --> 08:57.245
Argument that Achilles does, but he's ugly

08:57.625 --> 08:59.765
and he gets brow beaten by Odysseus.

09:00.385 --> 09:03.885
So what I am trying to look at in the Plato's apology is

09:03.885 --> 09:06.085
that, Socrates

09:06.145 --> 09:10.725
or Plato has figured, Socrates as both Achilles

09:10.985 --> 09:12.045
and the ascites,

09:12.045 --> 09:14.285
because he's saying exactly the same thing

09:14.635 --> 09:17.205
that Achilles is saying as his thees.

09:17.395 --> 09:20.285
He's trying to get Athens to change their ways

09:20.345 --> 09:21.965
to do something better, but

09:21.965 --> 09:24.445
because he's as ugly as thees, he's going

09:24.445 --> 09:26.725
to end up like thees as opposed to Achilles

09:27.145 --> 09:28.365
who makes his case,

09:28.365 --> 09:30.125
and ultimately, well, he will die at the end,

09:30.145 --> 09:31.565
but immediate he doesn't.

09:31.825 --> 09:33.485
But, so I, I'm trying to show

09:33.485 --> 09:36.725
that there's something similar going on once more Homeric

09:36.725 --> 09:39.045
influence upon Plato's writings.

00:00 - I've been, working on Plato, Aristo. He in Homer for quite some time. and I always had a kind of interest in esop. And, so all of these things came together, way back when I worked on my massive thesis. Insect imagery in the plays

00:17 - of Aristophanes sounds a bit dull, but in fact, aristo, he's this great fantasist would take these small, insignificant heroes and turn them into the overlords of each world that they created. So lots of fun. and so wasps, for example, is a title of one of his plays, birds frogs. And then in one the piece, he has a protagonist fatten up a dung beetle in order to fly up

00:42 - to Olympus on the back of it, like hon on, Pegasus, in order to negotiate a piece, for Athens and Sparta using Zeus as a mediator. So all that by way of saying insects, are fun to use and animals are fun to use to create lots of, interesting things for human beings. What essentially I did was, my main focus was Aristo, or sorry, was Plato's Apology of Socrates. And the most famous, image of it is, of course, Socrates as gadfly.

01:16 - and yet it seemed to me an odd choice if you want to in fact get off of the charge of, you know, corrupting the youth of Athens and introducing new gods in that. And if you wanna win your case, why is it that you would choose this bile and disgusting insect when you figure Athens as this noble steed and all you're doing is constantly biting it and, snapping at it

01:38 - and annoying it such that it'll ultimately get swatted and get killed? Odd, it seemed unusual to do. And very clearly, Socrates does get executed. He has to drink the hemlock. So in some sense, it, it's a failure as a defense speech. It's a great, defense of the life of philosophy. And the gadfly, of course, is now figured extremely prominently in, in the West.

02:03 - we use it all the time. If you look up any dictionary entry after that initial dictionary entry of it being like a horsely, the second entry describes it as somebody who persistently annoys somebody, particularly in political venues, to get things going. I wanted to look particularly at why he would choose that. And since I'd worked already on aristot needs and Homer, and had seen their usage of insects

02:29 - and, imagery that I thought there might be something there. So that was my initial catalyst, I guess. No, that's, that's a very good question. And so essentially what you have, if you go all the way back to Homer, he's the beginning of Western literature and, similes and metaphors are everywhere in Homer. And what's interesting is he uses a lot of animals, but normally what he does is he uses, say, a lion as your prime example of comparing a hero.

02:56 - Achilles fell upon the enemy like A lion upon, you know, some animals, right? So that's the kind of thing. And you use these kind of bold and noble and courageous, creatures to elevate your hero. Yet interestingly, Homer will on occasion use less noble animals such as wasps or flies. and some aren't going to be flattering portraits, and I won't go into all those details, but on occasion, he does choose a particular

03:26 - low insect like a fly, and uses it to, in fact, elevate a hero. So in one particular instance that tied in very nicely with Plato's, apology of Socrates was Menis, who is or was married to Helen, of course, Helen of Troy, chief for whom the whole war got going. he is now in book 17 acting as a kind of antagonist. And what he ends up doing is he tries to rescue, the body of a slain comrade. but he's up against all these Trojans fighting him.

03:56 - So Athena appears to him, and she imbues him with extra power, extra strength. But what she ends up doing, or what Homer ends up doing, is describing the kind of daring that she puts into mans the daring of a fly that despite constantly being swatted at by, human beings persists in trying to do what it wants to do. So weirdly, perhaps, unexpectedly you have men aus now likened to a fly rather than to what you might have expected, a lion

04:29 - or some wolf or something like that. So we see it in, the case of Homer, where he can use these lowly incept for lofty ends, which goes against the grain. So in fact, what I try to show in my, article is that not just Plato, but also his epic, predecessor, Homer can do something very similar to what Plato does with the gadfly, and then that's an antidepressant. Then you get Aristophanes in his comic version where the wasp, are usually seen as irascible,

05:01 - and, they're annoying and they're gonna constantly hassle you. But, Aristophanes will also highlight the fact that the wasps were used, or at least the, the Athenians, the old men describe themselves as wasps protecting their homeland against the Persian invaders a couple of generations before. So wasps are now figured as homeland security to defend and protect the homeland against any outside Maring forces.

05:28 - So you get this strange image of an insect doing something noble. and valorous, a Marshall prowess is all tied in with this. So when it comes to Socrates gadfly, although he's this annoying, disgusting insect that can attack and bite you and cause you to bleed, he's doing it for a purpose. He's doing it to, in fact, rouse us as human beings, more generally speaking now from our lethargy for our, from

05:56 - what con called our dogmatic slumbers, and to get us to think harder about we, what we're trying to do, in life, and not just sleep, walk through it. You know, as I mentioned at the very beginning, we still use the image of the gadfly today, right? and so this has powerful resonance and, but we also are well aware of everybody knows, or at least had any experience on a farm, or, you know, what a gadfly is. You know what a horse fly is.

06:23 - They, can really pester, they can really annoy. They can cause horses to, get out of control and wild. so they're kind of dangerous things, and we do have to watch them, and we have to, in some sense protect against 'em. And yet at the same time, they can be essential, when we get a bit too complacent with ourselves. Socrates themself a very polarizing figure, very fam famously Babington McCauley, the 19th century wig historian in a letter

06:54 - describes reading the Socratic Dialogues, and he goes, the more I read about Socrates, the less I'm surprised that they actually wanted to poison him. So he saw, Socrates as this horrific figure. whereas the whole point I think here is that artists and philosophers want to challenge us, want to get us out of our, as it were, of the ruts that we are all in. And in a polarizing world, you know, no one is all villain. No one is all hero. We're all a mixture of these things.

07:26 - And if you can take a figure, lake Socrates, who was ugly, he was kind of nasty. He didn't wash, he was unshare, all of these things. And yet, he ends up being this symbol of the, as it were, internal world of our minds and our thoughts as opposed to, so let's focus maybe on what's inside as opposed to what's, just on the outside. So more broadly speaking, I believe that the whole point of this, if you want to draw an isop moral from this

07:56 - particular fable, is that let's not judge by appearances. Let's not judge, by, what we might think is the initial effect, but stand back more broadly and kind of suss things out and accept the fact that yes, artists and philosophers might use something to provoke us, but they do it ultimately for our own good, whether or not we believe that to be the case. and quite often these guys are knocked out and taken out, just finished actually submitting something

08:26 - I'm still waiting to hear back. But, another take on this idea, of the tragic comic figure that is Socrates. So, in book, one of the Id Achilles ends up getting in an argument with, AGA Menon wants to kill him, but is stalk, but he has a big harangue with him, and he belittles him and berates him famously in book two, this, the Ugliest Man to come to, Troy, a fellow by the name of Thees, essentially makes the very same

08:55 - Argument that Achilles does, but he's ugly and he gets brow beaten by Odysseus. So what I am trying to look at in the Plato's apology is that, Socrates or Plato has figured, Socrates as both Achilles and the ascites, because he's saying exactly the same thing that Achilles is saying as his thees. He's trying to get Athens to change their ways to do something better, but

09:21 - because he's as ugly as thees, he's going to end up like thees as opposed to Achilles who makes his case, and ultimately, well, he will die at the end, but immediate he doesn't. But, so I, I'm trying to show that there's something similar going on once more Homeric influence upon Plato's writings.

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