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View the page of Joy Schulz

Joy Schulz highlights four Polynesian women rulers who held enormous domestic and foreign power and expertly governed their people amid shifting loyalties, outright betrayals, and the ascendancy of imperial racism.

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 30, 2024

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In this text, Joy discusses her motivations and research process for writing a book on women in politics in the context of the Hawaiian Revolution and the role of Polynesian women in history. She began her exploration with a focus on the Hawaiian monarchy, particularly the story of Queen Liliʻuokalani, seeking to tell her side and to deeply understand her life. Joy reflects on how the rhetoric surrounding gender and women's roles in politics seemed to be regressing during her research, which inspired her to investigate the intersection of gender, politics, and religion.

Joy highlights her research methodologies, which involved accessing a variety of historical records from American and British missionaries, and the Royal Navy, and emphasized the challenge of reconstructing the stories of Polynesian women who were less documented. She emphasizes the significance of understanding the women’s political power within their cultures, especially during periods of European and American expansion and colonialism.

She draws attention to the historical context, wherein Captain Cook's arrival and subsequent British and American interests in the Pacific Islands shaped the dynamics of power. Joy outlines the evolving landscape of women's political power as influenced by the introduction of Christianity and changes in cultural norms, noting that although Polynesian women initially held more power compared to their Western counterparts, this shifted under colonial pressures.

Joy expresses her hopes that readers will recognize the brilliance and political acumen of these women, encouraging their inclusion in historical discussions. She also discusses the need for further research into the broader connections between Polynesian societies and international history. Her work aims to elevate the profiles of significant Polynesian women in history, advocating that their legacies be recognized in academic studies and textbooks.

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Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Research Focus on Hawaiian Monarchy**: The author discusses their research project centered on the Hawaiian Revolution and the overthrow of Queen Lili'uokalani, emphasizing the perspective of American missionaries who helped facilitate her overthrow while identifying as culturally Hawaiian. The author expresses a desire to tell the Queen's story and explore her life in more depth.

2. **Gender and Politics Convideo**: The author notes a perceived regression in the discourse surrounding women in politics in the U.S. They aim to examine the influence of religion on women's political roles and achievements, specifically through the lens of Hawaiian and Tahitian queens during the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

3. **Historical Records Accessibility**: The author highlights the accessibility of missionary records and other historical documentation from various perspectives (American, British, Tahitian) due to the missionaries’ efforts in teaching Polynesian societies literacy, enabling the reconstruction of women's stories despite their absence in formal records.

4. **Women Leaders During Colonial Encounters**: The video underscores how Polynesian women, particularly chiefs like Queen Pērā and Queen Lili'uokalani, navigated political challenges posed by European and American colonization. The author discusses how these women leveraged their positions during negotiations with foreign powers, contrasting their experiences with later female political leaders who faced diminishing influence.

5. **Call for Inclusion of Women's Stories in History**: The author expresses a desire for the contributions and stories of Polynesian women to be recognized and included in world history videobooks. They highlight the importance of understanding the roles these women played in shaping their societies and the broader international convideo, advocating for increased recognition of Polynesian history.

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Here are some key quotes extracted from your video that capture the main themes and ideas:

1. **On the Hawaiian Revolution and Perspective:**
- "I was telling the story from the other side... I wanted to tell the Queen's side, and I really wanted to look at her life in greater depth."

2. **On Gender and Politics:**
- "I really wanted to have a larger project that looked at gender and politics from a religious perspective."
- "How does religion influence the interaction of women in politics and their reception and their ultimate achievements throughout their political careers?"

3. **On Research Challenges:**
- "The difficult part was to look at these women and try to recreate their legacies... how can I reconstruct their stories in a way that honors them, who they were?"

4. **On Sources and Histories:**
- "A lot of American and London missionary records are fully accessible... that's the key from their perspective."

5. **On Political Power:**
- "They used it to their advantage as women, as women political leaders... but they didn't have total power."

6. **On the Impact of Christianity:**
- "You have the Christianization of laws, which affects culture, including family, property, marriage, all of that, as well as political status."

7. **On Women's Historical Presence:**
- "What I want to accomplish is I want each of these women's names in every world history videobook."

8. **On Polynesian Connections:**
- "There are so many Polynesian connections with the wider world that just haven't been made yet for the broader audience."

These quotes encapsulate the unique perspectives on women's roles in politics, the research process, and the historical narratives surrounding Hawaiian and Polynesian culture.

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Here are some articles that may explore similar themes to Joy's research on women in politics, particularly in the convideo of colonialism, gender roles, and historical narratives:

1. **"Women and the Politics of History: The Role of Women in Colonization"** - This article examines how women were both affected by and participated in colonization processes, highlighting their responses to geopolitical changes and their roles in shaping historical narratives.

2. **"The Impact of Colonialism on Indigenous Women's Leadership Roles"** - This study investigates the ways in which colonial powers altered the traditional roles of Indigenous women in politics and society, drawing parallels to the historical influences noted by Joy in her research.

3. **"Revisiting Queen Liliʻuokalani: A Feminist Perspective on Hawaiian Sovereignty"** - This article focuses specifically on Queen Liliʻuokalani’s life and reign, discussing her political strategies and the broader implications of her leadership in the face of colonial pressures.

4. **"Gender, Colonialism, and Resistance: Women’s Roles in Pacific History"** - This piece addresses the dynamic roles of women in the Pacific Islands' histories, particularly in resisting colonialism and maintaining cultural identity.

5. **"Power, Politics, and the Polynesian Woman: A Historical Overview"** - This article presents a comprehensive overview of the political roles of Polynesian women throughout history, from pre-colonial times to contemporary discussions, mirroring Joy’s exploration of political power dynamics.

6. **"Cultural Resilience among Polynesian Women: Stories from the Past"** - This research highlights how Polynesian women have historically navigated and resisted the challenges posed by colonialism, emphasizing their resilience and contributions to their societies.

7. **"The Evolution of Gender Roles in Post-Colonial Pacific Societies"** - This scholarly article discusses the shifts in gender roles following the colonial period, analyzing how these changes have impacted women's political engagement.

8. **"The Intersection of Gender, Culture, and Politics in Indigenous Hawaiian Histories"** - This article offers a focused look at how gender intersects with cultural and political narratives in Hawaii, similar to Joy's investigation of women in politics.

9. **"Narrating Women's Histories: The Importance of Inclusive Historical Discourse"** - This piece emphasizes the need for inclusive histories that recognize the contributions of women, aligning with Joy's advocacy for the acknowledgment of Polynesian women's legacy.

These articles provide broader convideos to understand the intersectionality of gender, politics, and colonial histories, much like Joy's work.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.000 --> 00:03.525
During my first research project, I looked at the

00:04.045 --> 00:06.845
Hawaiian Revolution and the overthrow of the Queen,

00:06.905 --> 00:09.445
the Le Kani, the last monarch in Hawaii.

00:10.225 --> 00:13.085
And I was telling the story from the other side.

00:13.305 --> 00:16.685
Um, it was a childhood story of, children

00:16.825 --> 00:18.485
of American missionaries who grew up

00:18.505 --> 00:21.285
and then overthrew her even though they believed

00:21.285 --> 00:23.005
that they were culturally Hawaiian.

00:23.745 --> 00:27.285
And in doing that research, I realized very much so

00:27.285 --> 00:28.965
that I wanted to tell the other side.

00:29.165 --> 00:30.645
I wanted to tell the Queen's side,

00:31.345 --> 00:33.925
and I really wanted to look at her life in greater depth.

00:34.265 --> 00:37.725
But it was also during a period here in the United States

00:38.055 --> 00:41.565
where I just felt as if the rhetoric surrounding gender

00:42.255 --> 00:45.805
women, women in politics was

00:46.545 --> 00:48.885
almost moving backwards, if that makes sense.

00:49.265 --> 00:52.005
And so I really wanted to have a larger project

00:52.035 --> 00:53.245
that looked at gender

00:53.345 --> 00:56.125
and politics from a religious perspective.

00:56.385 --> 00:59.205
How does religion influence the interaction

00:59.425 --> 01:02.005
of women in politics and their reception

01:02.225 --> 01:05.845
and their ultimate, sort of,

01:05.845 --> 01:08.325
achievements throughout their political careers?

01:08.345 --> 01:11.925
And that's where I found such an interesting story in four

01:12.405 --> 01:16.485
Hawaiian Queens, Ali Rii from Tahiti

01:16.665 --> 01:18.565
and Polynesian Culture and Society,

01:18.705 --> 01:20.245
and sort of brought those four together

01:20.545 --> 01:21.565
for the first project.

01:22.045 --> 01:23.605
A lot of American

01:23.785 --> 01:27.525
and London missionary records are fully accessible

01:27.555 --> 01:29.885
because their main goal was

01:29.885 --> 01:32.405
to teach Polynesian societies how to read and write.

01:32.985 --> 01:35.085
So literally everything is written down

01:35.625 --> 01:37.365
and from their perspective,

01:37.545 --> 01:39.645
that's the key from their perspective.

01:40.145 --> 01:44.445
And so the missionary records are very accessible online in

01:44.445 --> 01:47.325
Australia, New Zealand, London, San Diego.

01:47.945 --> 01:51.445
And then you also of course have the Royal Navy

01:51.585 --> 01:53.605
and their records in London as well.

01:54.225 --> 01:55.845
And from the Tahitian perspective,

01:56.065 --> 01:59.045
the US records are accessible at Harvard

01:59.385 --> 02:02.765
and in Honolulu at various, deposit depositories.

02:03.025 --> 02:05.765
So I had a lot

02:06.065 --> 02:08.765
of knowledge from the French perspective,

02:09.145 --> 02:10.205
the English perspective,

02:10.425 --> 02:13.445
and the American perspective from both the government

02:13.585 --> 02:14.725
as well as the missionaries.

02:15.265 --> 02:19.525
The difficult part was to look at these women

02:19.825 --> 02:23.285
and try to recreate their legs par,

02:23.285 --> 02:25.765
particularly in the Tahitian case where neither

02:25.785 --> 02:29.965
of the two chiefs that I write about could reader write.

02:30.585 --> 02:32.605
Um, in that particular case,

02:32.785 --> 02:35.805
how can I reconstruct their stories in a way

02:35.805 --> 02:37.805
that honors them, who they were,

02:38.355 --> 02:40.405
what I can find out about who they were.

02:40.585 --> 02:44.045
And I was able to sort of read past the archives,

02:44.045 --> 02:47.405
in terms of what was not actually said in the archives,

02:47.795 --> 02:49.525
looking at what wasn't there,

02:49.625 --> 02:52.885
and then going about trying to find out,

02:53.035 --> 02:56.885
what was actually going on, in sort of those absences.

02:57.425 --> 02:58.725
And I found a

02:58.725 --> 03:02.045
Lot, and by looking at it that way, why wasn't,

03:02.065 --> 03:04.965
for example, queen Imada present

03:04.985 --> 03:08.685
during some very key discussions when the French were able

03:08.685 --> 03:11.085
to convince her advisors to give over great amounts

03:11.085 --> 03:13.325
of power while she was actually giving

03:13.415 --> 03:14.725
birth to one of her children.

03:15.265 --> 03:16.765
She was in labor at the time.

03:17.625 --> 03:20.965
So those types of things I was able to sort of

03:21.525 --> 03:24.125
recreate in a way that was written down

03:24.475 --> 03:25.965
what hasn't been written down before.

03:26.085 --> 03:27.805
I think most people have heard of Captain Cook

03:28.465 --> 03:32.125
and how he was basically the first

03:33.035 --> 03:37.605
English captain to arrive into, into Hawaii, excuse me.

03:37.705 --> 03:40.725
But he stopped in Tahiti before he arrived in Hawaii.

03:40.865 --> 03:43.325
So he's got this sort of,

03:43.725 --> 03:47.365
outsized personality in the histories of both islands.

03:47.465 --> 03:50.725
But the British were the first to arrive in Tahiti

03:50.725 --> 03:54.725
and looked at Tahiti as, a prime trading STA station

03:54.905 --> 03:57.205
for their larger project, which was Australia.

03:58.105 --> 04:02.365
And, the Americans of course looked at Hawaii as sort

04:02.365 --> 04:03.365
of in their pond.

04:03.705 --> 04:06.485
So of course, in their sphere of influence.

04:07.105 --> 04:09.405
And the American missionaries there really grabbed onto

04:09.405 --> 04:12.205
that project in reading about not only

04:12.205 --> 04:15.325
what the London missionaries were already doing in Tahiti,

04:15.665 --> 04:18.445
but reading accounts, of Hawaiian culture

04:18.445 --> 04:20.685
that was coming back from American captains

04:20.905 --> 04:25.005
and from Hawaiian students who were coming

04:25.005 --> 04:26.605
to learn in the US at the same time.

04:27.185 --> 04:30.685
So all of this is happening in the context of

04:31.955 --> 04:35.805
late 18th, early 19th century international history,

04:36.215 --> 04:38.885
where it's almost as if the nations of Europe

04:38.985 --> 04:40.805
and the United States are all

04:40.805 --> 04:43.885
of the sudden discovering Polynesian islands as being key

04:43.905 --> 04:45.205
to their sort of world power.

04:45.425 --> 04:47.365
And they're all doing it at the exact same time.

04:47.625 --> 04:51.885
You have their male counterparts, for example, in Tahiti,

04:52.385 --> 04:54.125
queen Pere,

04:54.225 --> 04:56.005
or she's not a queen in our,

04:56.305 --> 04:57.805
in our sense of the word, she's a queen.

04:57.805 --> 04:59.445
But obviously in Polynesian society,

04:59.495 --> 05:00.645
she's a very high chief,

05:01.145 --> 05:05.085
but you have in her situation her own husband being afraid

05:05.385 --> 05:08.285
of the new white arrivals to the island.

05:08.825 --> 05:11.125
And she is negotiating

05:11.185 --> 05:14.685
and navigating a totally foreign experience for both

05:15.305 --> 05:20.045
the British sailors and the Navy as well as her own people.

05:20.225 --> 05:23.765
And she does it with a great amount of intelligence in

05:23.765 --> 05:25.485
that she's able to look at the situation

05:25.485 --> 05:27.525
and say, how can I benefit from this?

05:28.265 --> 05:30.365
And how can my people benefit from this?

05:30.865 --> 05:33.285
But she's also in a gendered world

05:33.335 --> 05:37.365
where Polynesia women have a lot more political power than,

05:37.785 --> 05:40.165
American or European women at this time,

05:40.425 --> 05:41.685
but they didn't have total power.

05:42.185 --> 05:46.645
And so what's interesting about both of the Hawaiian

05:47.265 --> 05:50.125
chiefs and the Tahitian Chiefs who were the first

05:50.225 --> 05:51.645
to encounter Europeans

05:51.645 --> 05:55.125
and Americans, is that they used it to their advantage

05:55.345 --> 05:57.405
as women, as women political leaders.

05:58.225 --> 05:59.565
Um, but it's

05:59.565 --> 06:02.885
because there are later counterparts towards the end

06:02.945 --> 06:04.485
of this sort of period

06:04.615 --> 06:07.205
where there's no outright colonialism.

06:07.305 --> 06:09.045
And then all of a sudden there is,

06:09.045 --> 06:11.525
there's a French takeover, there's a US takeover.

06:11.975 --> 06:14.485
There are women in power at the exact same time

06:14.705 --> 06:16.765
who are not able to use their gender

06:17.265 --> 06:18.845
to their own political advantage

06:19.145 --> 06:20.325
and their people's advantage.

06:20.665 --> 06:22.725
And so the book is really looking at

06:22.955 --> 06:26.325
what is the religious context, what has changed?

06:26.585 --> 06:29.645
And the Christian world today, whether it's Protestantism

06:29.645 --> 06:33.085
or Catholicism, but the debates have are,

06:33.145 --> 06:34.525
are the exactly the same,

06:34.785 --> 06:38.605
and how much power can a female can we allow

06:38.685 --> 06:39.765
a woman to have?

06:40.585 --> 06:44.005
And when Hawaii essentially became a Christian,

06:44.665 --> 06:47.965
so Kme MEA iii in his very first constitution being

06:48.015 --> 06:52.085
influenced by his region, Kamanu, who is one

06:52.085 --> 06:55.925
of the women I discuss, she accepted Christianity

06:56.065 --> 06:57.845
for a whole bunch of complex reasons.

06:58.065 --> 07:01.445
But so did he. And he in his first constitution said,

07:01.755 --> 07:05.125
this is a Christian nation in Tahiti, the same thing.

07:05.185 --> 07:07.765
The missionaries felt like they had Christianized,

07:08.385 --> 07:12.045
the monarchy, the monarchy that they decided was going

07:12.045 --> 07:13.525
to be the monarchy.

07:13.795 --> 07:16.085
They essentially hand pitched the chiefs

07:16.085 --> 07:18.445
that they thought were going to be the most Christian

07:18.985 --> 07:20.645
and supported them and elevated them.

07:20.745 --> 07:22.965
So you have the christianization of laws,

07:23.535 --> 07:26.725
which affects culture, including family, property, marriage,

07:27.025 --> 07:30.085
all of that, as well as political status.

07:30.425 --> 07:32.885
And over the course of these histories,

07:32.945 --> 07:36.505
you have women receding in that political status,

07:37.135 --> 07:38.665
even though the women were the first

07:38.725 --> 07:40.225
to really open their arms

07:40.365 --> 07:42.065
and their minds to these new relat.

07:42.265 --> 07:45.145
I really tried to write the book for an academic audience,

07:45.145 --> 07:46.345
but also a general audience.

07:46.575 --> 07:48.905
It's short enough that you could read each

07:48.905 --> 07:50.785
of these women's lives individually.

07:51.325 --> 07:54.865
But my goal is that taken together, you see,

07:55.405 --> 07:56.825
you see a new world really.

07:57.125 --> 08:00.025
You see a new world that could have maybe been different.

08:00.525 --> 08:02.265
Um, you see paths that were not taken,

08:02.805 --> 08:05.745
but you also see in the middle of it, you see brilliance,

08:05.885 --> 08:09.705
you see compassion, you see political negotiations

08:09.805 --> 08:12.065
and savviness, and you see, all

08:12.065 --> 08:13.265
of this being done by women.

08:14.005 --> 08:17.345
And so what I want to accomplish is I want each

08:17.345 --> 08:20.185
of these women's names in every world history textbook.

08:20.625 --> 08:22.865
I mean, I want them part of the discussion.

08:22.995 --> 08:26.185
Personally, I want to go to Australia and New Zealand.

08:27.585 --> 08:29.225
I want to physically go there.

08:29.645 --> 08:32.945
So that's the, that is the, self-centered

08:33.625 --> 08:36.105
research policy that I have directed for myself.

08:37.445 --> 08:39.825
But I also think that there are so many

08:40.555 --> 08:42.545
Polynesian connections with the wider world

08:42.545 --> 08:45.225
that just haven't been made yet for,

08:45.245 --> 08:46.345
the broader audience.

08:46.485 --> 08:50.185
And so anything that I can do to encourage people

08:50.185 --> 08:51.705
to look at Polynesian society

08:51.885 --> 08:55.705
as really a focal point in international history, I want

08:55.705 --> 08:55.945
to do that.

00:00 - During my first research project, I looked at the Hawaiian Revolution and the overthrow of the Queen, the Le Kani, the last monarch in Hawaii. And I was telling the story from the other side. it was a childhood story of, children of American missionaries who grew up

00:18 - and then overthrew her even though they believed that they were culturally Hawaiian. And in doing that research, I realized very much so that I wanted to tell the other side. I wanted to tell the Queen's side, and I really wanted to look at her life in greater depth. But it was also during a period here in the United States where I just felt as if the rhetoric surrounding gender women, women in politics was almost moving backwards, if that makes sense.

00:49 - And so I really wanted to have a larger project that looked at gender and politics from a religious perspective. How does religion influence the interaction of women in politics and their reception and their ultimate, sort of, achievements throughout their political careers? And that's where I found such an interesting story in four Hawaiian Queens, Ali Rii from Tahiti and Polynesian Culture and Society,

01:18 - and sort of brought those four together for the first project. A lot of American and London missionary records are fully accessible because their main goal was to teach Polynesian societies how to read and write. So literally everything is written down and from their perspective, that's the key from their perspective. And so the missionary records are very accessible online in

01:44 - Australia, New Zealand, London, San Diego. And then you also of course have the Royal Navy and their records in London as well. And from the Tahitian perspective, the US records are accessible at Harvard and in Honolulu at various, deposit depositories. So I had a lot of knowledge from the French perspective, the English perspective, and the American perspective from both the government

02:13 - as well as the missionaries. The difficult part was to look at these women and try to recreate their legs par, particularly in the Tahitian case where neither of the two chiefs that I write about could reader write. in that particular case, how can I reconstruct their stories in a way that honors them, who they were, what I can find out about who they were. And I was able to sort of read past the archives,

02:44 - in terms of what was not actually said in the archives, looking at what wasn't there, and then going about trying to find out, what was actually going on, in sort of those absences. And I found a Lot, and by looking at it that way, why wasn't, for example, queen Imada present during some very key discussions when the French were able to convince her advisors to give over great amounts of power while she was actually giving

03:13 - birth to one of her children. She was in labor at the time. So those types of things I was able to sort of recreate in a way that was written down what hasn't been written down before. I think most people have heard of Captain Cook and how he was basically the first English captain to arrive into, into Hawaii, excuse me. But he stopped in Tahiti before he arrived in Hawaii. So he's got this sort of,

03:43 - outsized personality in the histories of both islands. But the British were the first to arrive in Tahiti and looked at Tahiti as, a prime trading STA station for their larger project, which was Australia. And, the Americans of course looked at Hawaii as sort of in their pond. So of course, in their sphere of influence. And the American missionaries there really grabbed onto that project in reading about not only what the London missionaries were already doing in Tahiti,

04:15 - but reading accounts, of Hawaiian culture that was coming back from American captains and from Hawaiian students who were coming to learn in the US at the same time. So all of this is happening in the context of late 18th, early 19th century international history, where it's almost as if the nations of Europe and the United States are all of the sudden discovering Polynesian islands as being key to their sort of world power.

04:45 - And they're all doing it at the exact same time. You have their male counterparts, for example, in Tahiti, queen Pere, or she's not a queen in our, in our sense of the word, she's a queen. But obviously in Polynesian society, she's a very high chief, but you have in her situation her own husband being afraid of the new white arrivals to the island. And she is negotiating

05:11 - and navigating a totally foreign experience for both the British sailors and the Navy as well as her own people. And she does it with a great amount of intelligence in that she's able to look at the situation and say, how can I benefit from this? And how can my people benefit from this? But she's also in a gendered world where Polynesia women have a lot more political power than, American or European women at this time, but they didn't have total power.

05:42 - And so what's interesting about both of the Hawaiian chiefs and the Tahitian Chiefs who were the first to encounter Europeans and Americans, is that they used it to their advantage as women, as women political leaders. but it's because there are later counterparts towards the end of this sort of period where there's no outright colonialism. And then all of a sudden there is,

06:09 - there's a French takeover, there's a US takeover. There are women in power at the exact same time who are not able to use their gender to their own political advantage and their people's advantage. And so the book is really looking at what is the religious context, what has changed? And the Christian world today, whether it's Protestantism or Catholicism, but the debates have are, are the exactly the same,

06:34 - and how much power can a female can we allow a woman to have? And when Hawaii essentially became a Christian, so Kme MEA iii in his very first constitution being influenced by his region, Kamanu, who is one of the women I discuss, she accepted Christianity for a whole bunch of complex reasons. But so did he. And he in his first constitution said, this is a Christian nation in Tahiti, the same thing. The missionaries felt like they had Christianized,

07:08 - the monarchy, the monarchy that they decided was going to be the monarchy. They essentially hand pitched the chiefs that they thought were going to be the most Christian and supported them and elevated them. So you have the christianization of laws, which affects culture, including family, property, marriage, all of that, as well as political status. And over the course of these histories, you have women receding in that political status,

07:37 - even though the women were the first to really open their arms and their minds to these new relat. I really tried to write the book for an academic audience, but also a general audience. It's short enough that you could read each of these women's lives individually. But my goal is that taken together, you see, you see a new world really. You see a new world that could have maybe been different.

08:00 - you see paths that were not taken, but you also see in the middle of it, you see brilliance, you see compassion, you see political negotiations and savviness, and you see, all of this being done by women. And so what I want to accomplish is I want each of these women's names in every world history textbook. I mean, I want them part of the discussion. Personally, I want to go to Australia and New Zealand. I want to physically go there.

08:29 - So that's the, that is the, self-centered research policy that I have directed for myself. But I also think that there are so many Polynesian connections with the wider world that just haven't been made yet for, the broader audience. And so anything that I can do to encourage people to look at Polynesian society as really a focal point in international history, I want to do that.

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