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Do people who drive trucks care about the environment?

View more insights in Social Sciences - Sociology - Environmental sociology

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View the page of Emily Huddart

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Emily Huddart discusses the socially constructed hierarchy of environmentalism.

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 1, 2024

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This video is a transcript detailing an interview with a professor discussing their research on the socially constructed hierarchy of environmentalism. The conversation occurs in London on July 29th and explores how people's relationship with the environment is influenced by their social class and political ideology. The professor explains that despite differing views, people acknowledge the existence of this hierarchy, often identifying an "ideal environmentalist" who engages in specific consumer practices (like buying organic or having solar panels) that may not necessarily correlate with a lower carbon footprint.

The analysis draws on two bodies of literature: environmental sociology, which examines public opinion and behaviors toward environmental issues, and cultural sociology, which explores how consumer choices reflect one's social status. The professor conducted 63 interviews in Washington State, targeting diverse communities to understand various perspectives on environmentalism. They identified distinct groups: eco-engaged individuals who align with the ideal, aspirational environmentalists who admire but struggle to meet this standard, skeptics who doubt the efficacy of individual actions, and those who resist the ideal due to its perceived limitations.

The discussion also highlights that high-status individuals often have a high carbon footprint while those who aspire to be environmentally friendly may have lower impacts. The professor advocates for dismantling the hierarchy to create unity in environmental efforts, emphasizing that different relationships to the environment can be equally valid. Future research will focus on understanding affective polarization in climate change discussions, promoting empathy and perspective-taking among differing groups. The professor concludes with the idea that storytelling can enrich representations of environmentalism, making it more inclusive.

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Here are five key points from the video you :

1. **Socially Constructed Hierarchy of Environmentalism**: The study emphasizes that perceptions of environmentalism are influenced by social constructs related to political ideology and social class, wherein certain consumer behaviors are regarded as more "ideal" than others. This hierarchy does not always correlate with a significant reduction in environmental impact, as higher-status individuals may participate in sustainable practices while having a larger carbon footprint.

2. **Diversity of Environmental Relationships**: The research explores how different socio-economic and educational backgrounds shape people's relationships with the environment. The findings indicate that there is no singular way to relate to the environment, and each individual’s relationship is convideo-dependent and shaped by their personal experiences and circumstances.

3. **Group Classification**: Participants were categorized into different groups based on their attitudes towards the ideal environmentalist: the 'eco engaged' (who align with the ideal), the 'aspirational environmentalists' (who admire but cannot fully embody the ideal), the skeptics (who doubt the effectiveness of individual actions), and the 'anti-environmentalists' (who may reject the consumerist view of environmentalism but still care for the environment).

4. **Need for Empathy and Understanding**: The video advocates for a move away from judgmental attitudes toward understanding and curiosity regarding others' environmental relationships. It posits that fostering empathy may help bridge divides, particularly in polarized political convideos surrounding environmental issues.

5. **Future Research Direction and Affective Polarization**: The author discusses plans to investigate affective polarization—wherein individuals favor their group while disliking others—specifically looking at how differing views on climate change contribute to division. By promoting understanding among diverse perspectives, the goal is to reduce polarization in environmental discourse.

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Here are some key quotes from the video, highlighting pivotal themes and concepts:

1. **Purpose of the Study**:
- "I began the study because I wanted to understand the place of the environment in people's lives."

2. **Influence of Social Class and Political Ideology**:
- "the way that we relate to the environment is shaped by our political ideology and our social class."

3. **Hierarchy of Environmentalism**:
- "the socially constructed hierarchy of environmentalism... while people didn't necessarily love this hierarchy of environmentalism, they nonetheless accepted that it existed."

4. **Disparity in Environmental Practices**:
- "the socially constructed hierarchy of environmentalism doesn't necessarily actually align with a lower environmental footprint or carbon footprint."

5. **Impact of Political and Social Structures**:
- "the purpose of unpacking this hierarchy is that I think it divides us... makes sort of a united civil society harder to achieve, which makes environmental policy harder to achieve."

6. **Nature of High-Status Consumption**:
- "high status people showcase their status is through their consumer choices."

7. **Different Types of Environmentalists**:
- "the group that I called the eco engaged... they really align with that ideal, and they recognize that they align with the ideal."
- "the aspirational environmentalists... they admired the ideal... but just can't seem to."

8. **Critical View on Consumption**:
- "you can go over and do your thing, but it's not gonna work."

9. **Constructed Notion of Environmentalism**:
- "what we have is we have a culturally constructed notion of what it means to be an environmentalist."

10. **Political Cooperation**:
- "political differences are not antithetical to political cooperation, but they are... when we have this really, firm but challenged or contested hierarchy."

11. **Diversity of Relationships to the Environment**:
- "there are diverse forms of relating to the environment... one of those is not more morally worthy than any other."

12. **Empathy Over Judgment**:
- "we can do better by approaching that relationship with curiosity and empathy than with judgment."

13. **Cultural Representation**:
- "I think we can do a better job of having multiple forms of environmentalism so that those can earn cultural worth."

14. **Future Research Direction**:
- "I'm starting a project right now looking at what's called affective polarization... ultimately with the aim of trying to overcome that polarization through more perspective taking."

These quotes encapsulate the study's examination of social constructs around environmentalism, the implications of income and education levels, and the importance of recognizing diverse perspectives in environmental discourse.

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Here are some article ideas that align with the themes and topics discussed in the video:

1. **"The Social Class Divide in Environmental Activism: Analyzing Consumer Culture"**
- This article could explore the relationship between social class and the environmental choices people make, discussing how economic status influences environmental behaviors and identities.

2. **"Rethinking Environmentalism: The Ideal vs. Reality"**
- A piece analyzing the concept of the "ideal environmentalist," examining how societal expectations shape individual actions and the implications of those standards for environmental movement inclusivity.

3. **"Cultural Sociology and Environmental Practices: Understanding Public Perception"**
- This article could investigate how cultural frameworks inform public opinion about environmental issues, with a focus on the behavioral trends observed in various demographic groups.

4. **"Interviews on Environmentalism: Diverse Voices, Shared Concerns"**
- A report summarizing findings from interviews conducted with different community groups, highlighting the varying perspectives on environmentalism and the challenges they face in advocating for sustainable practices.

5. **"The Paradox of Social Status and Carbon Footprints"**
- This article could delve into the irony of high-status individuals often having a larger carbon footprint, exploring the disconnect between environmental values and lifestyles among the affluent.

6. **"Empathy in the Climate Crisis: Bridging Divides for Collective Action"**
- An exploration of how fostering empathy among diverse groups can enhance climate change discussions and lead to more unified environmental efforts.

7. **"Storytelling as a Tool for Inclusive Environmentalism"**
- This piece could examine how narratives and personal stories can reshape the discourse around environmentalism, making it more accessible and inclusive for various audiences.

8. **"The Role of Political Ideology in Environmental Consciousness"**
- An analysis of how political beliefs influence perceptions and actions regarding environmental issues, and the implications for building a more cohesive movement.

9. **"Engagement Strategies for Eco-Skeptics: Navigating Dissent in Environmental Dialogues"**
- This article could focus on approaches to engage with skeptics and those resistant to mainstream environmental narratives, fostering understanding and collaboration.

10. **"Creating Unity in Diversity: Dismantling Environmental Hierarchies"**
- A discussion on strategies to dissolve the existing hierarchy in environmentalism, promoting equality among diverse relationships with nature for collective sustainability efforts.

These article ideas can complement the themes explored in your video and contribute to a broader discussion on environmentalism and social dynamics.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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I began the study because I wanted to understand the place

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of the environment in people's lives.

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Um, in particular, there's longstanding research that shows

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that the way that we relate to the environment is shaped

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by our political ideology and our social class.

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Social class. We would measure by income, education,

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occupational prestige,

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and I wanted to understand why,

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why those factors would shape

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how we relate to the environment.

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So the reason that I put forward this idea

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of the socially constructed hierarchy of environmentalism is

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because as we know, any hierarchy tends

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to be socially constructed, whether that's a hierarchy

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of dominance or power, physical strength.

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Um, and what I was seeing in the interviews I was conducting

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for this study was that while people didn't necessarily

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love this hierarchy of environmentalism, they

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nonetheless accepted that it existed.

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So they sort of referred to this ideal environmentalist who

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adopted a wide variety of consumer based practices

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that may or may not be as familiar to you in London

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as they are to me here in Vancouver.

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Um, that things like buying organic produce,

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having a hybrid or electric car cycling rather than driving,

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you know, having solar panels on your roof,

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shopping at a farmer's market

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and the socially constructed hierarchy

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of environmentalism doesn't nas necessarily actually align

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with a lower environmental footprint or carbon footprint?

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Um, typically because people who, engage in those sorts

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of practices also have a high level of income,

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and so they fly a lot

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and they have large homes and multiple homes.

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So the purpose of unpacking this hierarchy is

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that I think it divides us,

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and makes sort of a united civil society harder

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to achieve, which makes environmental policy

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harder to achieve.

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One is within the field of,

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environmental sociology slash environmental psychology

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that's really looking at opinion about environmental,

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you know, whether it's environmental concern

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or pro-environmental behaviors, which are the sort

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of practices people do with the intention

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of reducing their environmental impact.

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So that's sort of one field.

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And that literature, as I mentioned, had found that people

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with more education, politically liberal urban

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people tend to be more concerned about the environment

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and tend to do more of these sort of household level,

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actions to reduce their environmental impact

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with the intention of reducing their environmental impact.

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Um, and then the other area of literature

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that I bring in is more from cultural sociology

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or the, studies of consumption, which find that

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while we have long, had an awareness

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that at least in

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Western European

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and North American countries, high, the, one

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of the ways that high status people showcase their status is

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through their consumer choices.

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So the sort of quintessential author here is Pierre Borgia,

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who, conducted meticulous surveys to look at the way

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that the upper class and the lower class consumed everything

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from, you know, leisure activities to wine and food,

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and articulated what he called this aesthetic disposition,

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this tendency for high cultural capital people

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or people with a lot of, status in society

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to really be attuned to the aesthetics of

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what they were consuming.

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So if you think about a meal, maybe a plate with a small,

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small amounts very artfully arranged where the provenance

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of the food is, you know, exotic,

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and made with a real mastery

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and kind of attention to detail complication, whereas a sort

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of quintessential working class meal would be one

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of abundance, you know, a big serving of potatoes,

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maybe a buffet in the sort of ideal case.

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So what I was drawing on in this

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research on the socially constructed hierarchy, is

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that increasingly we're seeing that in addition

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to an aesthetic disposition,

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high status consumers also have

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what we would call a moral disposition,

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where they're not just interested in the

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aesthetic properties of that meal on their plate,

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but they also wanna know details about its, ethical

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values, basically.

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Is it, you know, was it produced with fair labor conditions?

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What if it's meat? Was the animal fairly treated?

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Um, how far away did the, you know,

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vegetables travel from farm to the plate?

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Um, so you can kind of see the way in which those two

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literature come together when we see urban,

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politically liberal, highly educated consumers engaging

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with a repertoire of consumption that,

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not only calls attention to aesthetics,

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but also calls attention to ethics.

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But in a very particular way,

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63 interviews in Washington state

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where I was living at the time,

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and, I really tried to

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interview both urban and rural communities.

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So kind of a politically liberal

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and a more politically conservative urban community,

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a more politically liberal rural community,

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and a more politically conservative rural community.

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And within each community, I used a sort

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of cluster sampling design to target households

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that were both high income and low income.

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So this is creates what's called a purpo

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of maximum variation sample, where the sample is,

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really diverse in terms of political

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Ideology, rural

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and urban residents, education and income.

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And within each of the four communities,

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I would knock on people's doors, go door to door,

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asking people to participate in an interview.

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Um, and over 60% agreed, which is really generous of them.

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Uh, and the interview took sort of between an hour

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and up to three hours,

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but the average was about an hour and a half.

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And I ask people, when you picture the environment,

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what comes to mind when you picture an environmentalist?

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What comes to mind? Um, you know,

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what are the ways in which the environment ha disrupts your

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life, contributes to your life?

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Um, a range of questions.

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And then through these questions, that's where I,

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I started noticing people talking about this quintessential

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ideal environmentalist that I've already described,

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and that I noticed that people's own relationship

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to the environment was in some ways contoured

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by their relationship to the ideal.

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So there were, you know, who the group

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that I called the eco engaged in, the book Ecotype

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that this article is from.

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Um, and they really align with that ideal,

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and they recognize that they align with the ideal.

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When I asked them, who do you picture when you

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picture an environmentalist?

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They said, I picture myself. Um, that's me.

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That's exactly what I do in my life.

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Then there was a group that I called the aspirational

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environmentalists, and they admired the ideal

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and they were like, it's just, it's not me.

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I just can't seem to, even though I want to,

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I keep trying and failing.

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Um, they tended to be politically liberal,

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but to be,

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lower in their cultural capital and in their income.

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So compared with the ideal environmentalists, they were low,

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lower social class.

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Um, then I talked to people who had this, orientation

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to that ideal environmentalist that was skeptical, sort

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of like, I think that they're well intentioned,

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but I don't think that we're ever gonna shop our

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way out of this crisis.

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And these people tended to have a very fatalist orientation

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to our current environmental situation.

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They felt like, you know, really it's corporations

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and governments that control the majority of,

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decisions that have these massive material implications.

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Households are relatively minor players by comparison,

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and that it's really pointless for households to be

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making these great sacrifices when it's not gonna amount

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to much materially.

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So I wouldn't say that they were antagonistic toward the

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ideal, but they were kind of like,

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you know, you can go away.

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You can go over and do your thing, but it's not gonna work.

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And then there were those who were more

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antagonistic to that ideal.

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Um, who I called, really in, in scare quotes, the

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Anti-environmental list.

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This is a term that comes up in the literature,

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and I actually think it's really inaccurate

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because, I don't think that they are anti-environmental.

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I think that they're anti a particular type

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of environmentalism,

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which is one in which people can only have a moral

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relationship to the environment if they were at are

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attenuating their own consumer choices.

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And the anti-environmental tended

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to have a very strong relationship to the environment,

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but it was one that was based on really knowing ecosystems,

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spending time in nature, having

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what I would call like an epistemically close

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relationship to the environment.

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The group that is really at the top of that hierarchy

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also has the highest carbon footprint.

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Um, the aspirational environmentalists who themselves feel

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that they're not doing enough actually have the

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lowest carbon footprint.

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So I, I think that

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what we have is we have a culturally constructed notion of

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what it means to be an environmentalist.

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And that is a very powerful story.

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Um, it's a story that aligns really well with some people,

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and they have made personal sacrifices to bring their lives

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into alignment with that story.

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The story itself, I think isn't actually very materially

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impactful because it doesn't matter how much, you know,

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local produce you're buying if you're taking

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15 flights a year.

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Um, the reason that I think that we need

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to dismantle this hierarchy is

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because of the, the existence

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of diverse forms of relating to the environment.

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I think, you know, just as we can understand

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that there are diverse forms of relationship

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to other people that can exist.

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You know, I can be a mother

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and have a very particular relationship with my children.

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I can be a friend, I can have different relationships

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to different friends, and one

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of those is not more morally worthy than any other.

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In the same way we can have relationships

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to the environment, I can relate

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to my home in a different way that I relate to the mountains

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that I can see from my office.

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Um, I can relate

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to those mountains in a different way than the person

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who lives down the hall from me.

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So I think we can absolutely have this multiplicity

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and diversity of forms of relating to the environment.

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And when we create a hierarchy, we start

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to create divisions.

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We start to other,

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and I think what we're seeing with the rise

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of political polarization is we not only have an othering,

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but we also have an aversion

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where some groups are then having aversion to other groups,

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which is fueling populist politics,

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which is fueling the sort of like the, the dismantling

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of a lot of environmental reforms that were

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Constructed at a time when

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even though the same political differences in relating

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to the environment existed,

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those political differences weren't actually a substantial

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barrier to passing meaningful environmental policy.

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So the purpose that I'm, really what I'm trying

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to say here is that political differences are not

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antithetical to political cooperation, but they are.

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When we have this really, firm but challenged

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or contested hierarchy

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because nobody likes to find themself at the bottom

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of a hierarchy that they don't feel they deserve to be at,

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there are multiple forms of relating to the environment

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and everybody's relationship

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to the environment makes sense for them.

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It makes sense given their biography.

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It makes sense given the context

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and the parameters of their lives at an individual basis.

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I think that when we encounter an environmental relationship

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or a, you know, someone's relationship to the environment

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that feels familiar or off-putting to us, we can do better

12:56.185 --> 12:58.405
by approaching that relationship with curiosity

12:58.985 --> 13:00.765
and empathy than with judgment.

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Um, at a more macro scale, I think

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that we can do a better job of telling stories

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of diverse forms of environmentalism.

13:10.105 --> 13:13.685
Um, you know, whether we're looking at magazines or novels

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or you know, films, there's often a very consistent trope

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of what the environmentalist looks like.

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I think we can do a better job of having multiple forms

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of environmentalism so that those can earn cultural worth.

13:29.505 --> 13:31.365
In terms of future research,

13:31.425 --> 13:33.845
I'm starting a project right now looking at what's called

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affective polarization.

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So it's the idea that, we, the,

13:39.555 --> 13:41.845
that groups in society will dislike

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and distrust others while liking

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and trusting groups like themselves.

13:47.705 --> 13:50.365
And so I'm really trying to understand the way in which our

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relationships to climate change

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and what we think we should do about climate change

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can form the basis of this sort of affect of othering.

13:58.305 --> 14:01.605
Um, ultimately with the aim of trying to overcome

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that polarization through more perspective taking so

14:05.725 --> 14:09.205
that different groups can understand why it makes sense

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for the other group

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to feel about decarbonization in this case as they do.

00:00 - I began the study because I wanted to understand the place of the environment in people's lives. in particular, there's longstanding research that shows that the way that we relate to the environment is shaped by our political ideology and our social class. Social class. We would measure by income, education,

00:18 - occupational prestige, and I wanted to understand why, why those factors would shape how we relate to the environment. So the reason that I put forward this idea of the socially constructed hierarchy of environmentalism is because as we know, any hierarchy tends to be socially constructed, whether that's a hierarchy of dominance or power, physical strength. and what I was seeing in the interviews I was conducting

00:47 - for this study was that while people didn't necessarily love this hierarchy of environmentalism, they nonetheless accepted that it existed. So they sort of referred to this ideal environmentalist who adopted a wide variety of consumer based practices that may or may not be as familiar to you in London as they are to me here in Vancouver. that things like buying organic produce, having a hybrid or electric car cycling rather than driving, you know, having solar panels on your roof,

01:26 - shopping at a farmer's market and the socially constructed hierarchy of environmentalism doesn't nas necessarily actually align with a lower environmental footprint or carbon footprint? typically because people who, engage in those sorts of practices also have a high level of income, and so they fly a lot and they have large homes and multiple homes. So the purpose of unpacking this hierarchy is that I think it divides us,

01:55 - and makes sort of a united civil society harder to achieve, which makes environmental policy harder to achieve. One is within the field of, environmental sociology slash environmental psychology that's really looking at opinion about environmental, you know, whether it's environmental concern or pro-environmental behaviors, which are the sort of practices people do with the intention of reducing their environmental impact.

02:21 - So that's sort of one field. And that literature, as I mentioned, had found that people with more education, politically liberal urban people tend to be more concerned about the environment and tend to do more of these sort of household level, actions to reduce their environmental impact with the intention of reducing their environmental impact. and then the other area of literature that I bring in is more from cultural sociology or the, studies of consumption, which find that

02:52 - while we have long, had an awareness that at least in Western European and North American countries, high, the, one of the ways that high status people showcase their status is through their consumer choices. So the sort of quintessential author here is Pierre Borgia, who, conducted meticulous surveys to look at the way that the upper class and the lower class consumed everything from, you know, leisure activities to wine and food,

03:26 - and articulated what he called this aesthetic disposition, this tendency for high cultural capital people or people with a lot of, status in society to really be attuned to the aesthetics of what they were consuming. So if you think about a meal, maybe a plate with a small, small amounts very artfully arranged where the provenance of the food is, you know, exotic, and made with a real mastery and kind of attention to detail complication, whereas a sort

04:01 - of quintessential working class meal would be one of abundance, you know, a big serving of potatoes, maybe a buffet in the sort of ideal case. So what I was drawing on in this research on the socially constructed hierarchy, is that increasingly we're seeing that in addition to an aesthetic disposition, high status consumers also have what we would call a moral disposition, where they're not just interested in the

04:28 - aesthetic properties of that meal on their plate, but they also wanna know details about its, ethical values, basically. Is it, you know, was it produced with fair labor conditions? What if it's meat? Was the animal fairly treated? how far away did the, you know, vegetables travel from farm to the plate? so you can kind of see the way in which those two literature come together when we see urban, politically liberal, highly educated consumers engaging

05:06 - with a repertoire of consumption that, not only calls attention to aesthetics, but also calls attention to ethics. But in a very particular way, 63 interviews in Washington state where I was living at the time, and, I really tried to interview both urban and rural communities. So kind of a politically liberal and a more politically conservative urban community,

05:33 - a more politically liberal rural community, and a more politically conservative rural community. And within each community, I used a sort of cluster sampling design to target households that were both high income and low income. So this is creates what's called a purpo of maximum variation sample, where the sample is, really diverse in terms of political Ideology, rural and urban residents, education and income.

06:02 - And within each of the four communities, I would knock on people's doors, go door to door, asking people to participate in an interview. and over 60% agreed, which is really generous of them. and the interview took sort of between an hour and up to three hours, but the average was about an hour and a half. And I ask people, when you picture the environment, what comes to mind when you picture an environmentalist? What comes to mind? you know,

06:29 - what are the ways in which the environment ha disrupts your life, contributes to your life? a range of questions. And then through these questions, that's where I, I started noticing people talking about this quintessential ideal environmentalist that I've already described, and that I noticed that people's own relationship to the environment was in some ways contoured by their relationship to the ideal. So there were, you know, who the group

06:59 - that I called the eco engaged in, the book Ecotype that this article is from. and they really align with that ideal, and they recognize that they align with the ideal. When I asked them, who do you picture when you picture an environmentalist? They said, I picture myself. that's me. That's exactly what I do in my life. Then there was a group that I called the aspirational environmentalists, and they admired the ideal

07:27 - and they were like, it's just, it's not me. I just can't seem to, even though I want to, I keep trying and failing. they tended to be politically liberal, but to be, lower in their cultural capital and in their income. So compared with the ideal environmentalists, they were low, lower social class. then I talked to people who had this, orientation to that ideal environmentalist that was skeptical, sort

07:57 - of like, I think that they're well intentioned, but I don't think that we're ever gonna shop our way out of this crisis. And these people tended to have a very fatalist orientation to our current environmental situation. They felt like, you know, really it's corporations and governments that control the majority of, decisions that have these massive material implications. Households are relatively minor players by comparison, and that it's really pointless for households to be

08:31 - making these great sacrifices when it's not gonna amount to much materially. So I wouldn't say that they were antagonistic toward the ideal, but they were kind of like, you know, you can go away. You can go over and do your thing, but it's not gonna work. And then there were those who were more antagonistic to that ideal. who I called, really in, in scare quotes, the Anti-environmental list.

08:55 - This is a term that comes up in the literature, and I actually think it's really inaccurate because, I don't think that they are anti-environmental. I think that they're anti a particular type of environmentalism, which is one in which people can only have a moral relationship to the environment if they were at are attenuating their own consumer choices. And the anti-environmental tended to have a very strong relationship to the environment,

09:25 - but it was one that was based on really knowing ecosystems, spending time in nature, having what I would call like an epistemically close relationship to the environment. The group that is really at the top of that hierarchy also has the highest carbon footprint. the aspirational environmentalists who themselves feel that they're not doing enough actually have the lowest carbon footprint. So I, I think that

09:50 - what we have is we have a culturally constructed notion of what it means to be an environmentalist. And that is a very powerful story. it's a story that aligns really well with some people, and they have made personal sacrifices to bring their lives into alignment with that story. The story itself, I think isn't actually very materially impactful because it doesn't matter how much, you know, local produce you're buying if you're taking 15 flights a year.

10:24 - the reason that I think that we need to dismantle this hierarchy is because of the, the existence of diverse forms of relating to the environment. I think, you know, just as we can understand that there are diverse forms of relationship to other people that can exist. You know, I can be a mother and have a very particular relationship with my children. I can be a friend, I can have different relationships

10:53 - to different friends, and one of those is not more morally worthy than any other. In the same way we can have relationships to the environment, I can relate to my home in a different way that I relate to the mountains that I can see from my office. I can relate to those mountains in a different way than the person who lives down the hall from me. So I think we can absolutely have this multiplicity

11:19 - and diversity of forms of relating to the environment. And when we create a hierarchy, we start to create divisions. We start to other, and I think what we're seeing with the rise of political polarization is we not only have an othering, but we also have an aversion where some groups are then having aversion to other groups, which is fueling populist politics, which is fueling the sort of like the, the dismantling

11:49 - of a lot of environmental reforms that were Constructed at a time when even though the same political differences in relating to the environment existed, those political differences weren't actually a substantial barrier to passing meaningful environmental policy. So the purpose that I'm, really what I'm trying to say here is that political differences are not antithetical to political cooperation, but they are. When we have this really, firm but challenged

12:23 - or contested hierarchy because nobody likes to find themself at the bottom of a hierarchy that they don't feel they deserve to be at, there are multiple forms of relating to the environment and everybody's relationship to the environment makes sense for them. It makes sense given their biography. It makes sense given the context and the parameters of their lives at an individual basis. I think that when we encounter an environmental relationship

12:49 - or a, you know, someone's relationship to the environment that feels familiar or off-putting to us, we can do better by approaching that relationship with curiosity and empathy than with judgment. at a more macro scale, I think that we can do a better job of telling stories of diverse forms of environmentalism. you know, whether we're looking at magazines or novels or you know, films, there's often a very consistent trope of what the environmentalist looks like.

13:21 - I think we can do a better job of having multiple forms of environmentalism so that those can earn cultural worth. In terms of future research, I'm starting a project right now looking at what's called affective polarization. So it's the idea that, we, the, that groups in society will dislike and distrust others while liking and trusting groups like themselves. And so I'm really trying to understand the way in which our

13:50 - relationships to climate change and what we think we should do about climate change can form the basis of this sort of affect of othering. ultimately with the aim of trying to overcome that polarization through more perspective taking so that different groups can understand why it makes sense for the other group to feel about decarbonization in this case as they do.

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