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Loving the Dying

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Len Verwey looks at a person’s life from youth and growing up to aging and dying, considering what the ineluctable reality of death might imply about how we should think about our lives.

Image courtesy of interviewee. February 22, 2024

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This video video discusses the process of writing poetry, particularly in the context of a recent collection titled "Loving The Dying." The author reflects on how initial individual poems can evolve into thematic explorations, notably around mortality, especially in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic. They express a desire to confront the reality of death and how recognizing mortality can enhance the quality of life.

The author explains the significance of language, noting its potential to both reveal and obscure truth. They emphasize a practical approach to writing, highlighting the importance of daily practice and the use of notebooks to overcome the fear of a blank page. The author also discusses the interplay between personal and political themes in poetry, suggesting that their work aims to bridge these distinctions.

In their collection, the author seeks to touch on more intimate aspects of life, expressing personal hopes and fears. They mention the need for poetry to connect with readers on an emotional level and the aspiration for their work to "chop away the ice that builds around the heart," allowing for deeper feelings and a better understanding of oneself and others. The overarching hope is to produce poetry that resonates with readers and accompanies them in their journeys.

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Here are some key quotes from the video you :

1. **On the evolution of poetry:**
- "But I think over time, you start seeing certain themes emerging... Do you want to push the theme harder? Do you wanna shift it?"

2. **On mortality and poetry:**
- "In a post covid world... there's been an interest in... the idea of my own mortality."
- "This was something that I wanted to explore more."

3. **On the limitations of language:**
- "I'm not always convinced that language can reveal the truth of things to us, but we often use it to also hide reality from ourselves."
- "Language can often be more of a way of putting a kind of filter between us and the way the world really is."

4. **On living with the acknowledgment of mortality:**
- "I think if we acknowledge our own mortality, it can help us live better lives."
- "Given that we all die, how do we live?"

5. **On the themes of the collection:**
- "We need to love our own life, including the dying, but we also need to look after each other."

6. **On the writing process:**
- "I try at least every day to kind of check in to see if there's anything happening."
- "There's nothing more scary than a blank piece of paper."

7. **On the intersection of personal and political:**
- "I'm interested in... how it feels to me to be alive."
- "These things are interwoven."

8. **Inspiration from Kafka:**
- "Franz Kafka said that literature must be like an ax that we use to chop away the ice that builds around the heart."

9. **On the aim of poetry:**
- "The aim is... to move the reader... to chop away some of this ice that we build around our own hearts so that we can feel better and live better."

10. **Hope for readers:**
- "I hope that there are some poems that are read and that there are some poems that are re-read."

These quotes reflect the central themes of the video, focusing on mortality, the creative process, the role of language, and the intersection of personal and political experiences.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.125 --> 00:01.545
You begin with a few poems,

00:01.845 --> 00:06.465
and, I don't necessarily think probably for most poets,

00:06.465 --> 00:08.705
when you start writing a a book of poems,

00:09.335 --> 00:12.065
they are initially more individual poems.

00:12.125 --> 00:15.715
But I think over time, the, the, you,

00:15.735 --> 00:18.035
you start seeing certain themes emerging

00:18.415 --> 00:20.115
and you always have sort of the choice.

00:20.175 --> 00:23.715
Do you want to push the theme harder? Do you wanna shift it?

00:24.375 --> 00:26.995
So for me, I suppose like many people,

00:27.335 --> 00:29.675
in a post covid world as well,

00:30.225 --> 00:32.635
there's been an interest in, or,

00:32.735 --> 00:35.115
or an engagement with the idea of my own mortality.

00:35.895 --> 00:40.595
Uh, and, so from that, when, when I saw that a lot

00:40.595 --> 00:43.365
of the poems seemed to be about dying

00:43.385 --> 00:46.645
and the reality of death, I realized this was something

00:46.645 --> 00:48.365
that I wanted to explore more.

00:48.425 --> 00:50.525
You know, I think in a

00:51.205 --> 00:53.365
slightly bigger perspective on my poetry,

00:54.895 --> 00:57.675
I'm not always convinced that language,

00:58.715 --> 01:00.755
language can reveal the truth of things to us,

01:00.855 --> 01:02.315
but we often use it to

01:02.865 --> 01:05.595
also hide reality from our, from ourselves.

01:05.795 --> 01:07.915
I think language can often be more of a way

01:07.915 --> 01:10.155
of putting a kind of filter between us

01:10.175 --> 01:11.515
and the way the the world really is.

01:11.775 --> 01:15.755
So I became very interested in, in looking at how we think

01:15.795 --> 01:17.355
through language about mortality

01:18.055 --> 01:23.015
and how, if we acknowledge our own mortality,

01:23.375 --> 01:26.095
I think it can help us live better lives.

01:27.235 --> 01:29.695
You know, typically we, many people seem to live

01:29.695 --> 01:30.895
as though they're never going to die.

01:30.895 --> 01:34.255
So for me, it became a, a matter of, of, of

01:34.765 --> 01:37.495
working in poetry with, with the idea of, okay, given

01:37.495 --> 01:39.775
that we all die, how do we live?

01:39.875 --> 01:41.655
How can I explore this in language and,

01:41.715 --> 01:44.175
and that I'm not, not implying I had all of

01:44.175 --> 01:45.535
that thought out at the beginning,

01:45.835 --> 01:48.615
but these were the kind of things that were in my head with

01:49.235 --> 01:50.415
as the poems emerged.

01:50.435 --> 01:53.495
And, and I mean, the idea of loving the dying,

01:53.515 --> 01:54.895
the title, there's a, you know,

01:54.895 --> 01:56.215
there's a twofold meaning there.

01:56.715 --> 01:59.535
Uh, we need to love our own life, including the dying,

01:59.555 --> 02:01.495
but we also need to look after each other.

02:01.835 --> 02:04.185
Uh, the, in the sense of looking

02:04.185 --> 02:08.505
after those who may literally be dying, you know, so

02:08.505 --> 02:10.985
for me, that, that was, that was, those were the themes that

02:11.575 --> 02:14.865
emerged, and that I sort of encouraged,

02:15.405 --> 02:16.745
but it was an opportunity.

02:17.685 --> 02:19.345
The poem, the, the book of poems,

02:19.535 --> 02:21.425
it's a little bit chronological there.

02:21.575 --> 02:24.025
Some, some of the early in the collection, some

02:24.025 --> 02:26.185
of the poems are, or you might almost call them growing up

02:26.275 --> 02:27.985
poems, poems of youth.

02:28.405 --> 02:31.105
So it was an, perhaps I'm just at that point in life

02:31.105 --> 02:32.945
where you want to have a bit of a sense of,

02:33.005 --> 02:34.305
of your own journey and,

02:34.305 --> 02:36.585
and what it, what, what it might mean as well

02:36.895 --> 02:38.025
with any large project.

02:38.205 --> 02:39.585
You know, if you, if you think about it,

02:39.585 --> 02:40.705
there's a book of poems.

02:40.745 --> 02:42.745
I think that's, that's probably too

02:42.745 --> 02:44.385
intimidating or too daunting.

02:44.525 --> 02:47.145
Um, for me, as in terms of writing,

02:49.355 --> 02:51.525
it's more about the, the practical

02:52.265 --> 02:54.525
effort you make every day, day, so to speak.

02:54.745 --> 02:58.165
Um, I, you know, I, I try at least every day to, to kind

02:58.165 --> 03:00.125
of check in to see if there's anything happening.

03:00.385 --> 03:01.605
Uh, you know, to sit down.

03:02.285 --> 03:04.445
I think it's important to, for me, it's important

03:04.445 --> 03:06.005
to keep notebooks because there's nothing,

03:06.005 --> 03:07.765
there's nothing more scary than a,

03:07.765 --> 03:08.845
than a blank piece of paper.

03:09.325 --> 03:12.005
I think for all of us, for, for professional writers,

03:12.145 --> 03:14.085
for poets, whatever, the blank piece

03:14.085 --> 03:15.525
of paper is a terrible thing.

03:15.665 --> 03:18.005
So, you know, you want, when you sit down, you, you kind

03:18.005 --> 03:21.125
of want to, to have something that you can get started with.

03:21.225 --> 03:25.085
Um, I mean, he Hemingway in, in, in, in his book

03:25.085 --> 03:28.125
of movable feast, has a good little tip along those lines

03:28.315 --> 03:32.125
that he would always stop his writing on a given day when he

03:32.125 --> 03:33.565
knew how to continue, so

03:33.565 --> 03:36.085
that the next morning he could pick it up for me.

03:36.125 --> 03:39.445
A lot of it, a lot of it is about generating, momentum.

03:40.105 --> 03:42.285
So it's on, that's on, that's on the practicals.

03:42.285 --> 03:44.245
If you have some sort of a sense of where you want to go

03:44.585 --> 03:46.525
and you, you keep notebooks as a writer

03:46.625 --> 03:48.245
and you kind of check in every day.

03:48.745 --> 03:51.285
Um, a lot of the rest of it sort of takes care

03:51.285 --> 03:52.605
of itself if you're lucky.

03:52.915 --> 03:56.565
There's a lot of things that I love about poetry,

03:56.865 --> 03:59.085
but, one of the things that I,

03:59.435 --> 04:02.805
that I love about poetry is that it, it asks us to

04:03.995 --> 04:07.725
perhaps question the, the kind of distinctions that,

04:07.725 --> 04:10.725
that are sometimes very necessary in, in our social

04:10.905 --> 04:13.925
and our cultural life, or our political life as well.

04:14.505 --> 04:19.115
So, I would say that certainly what I try

04:19.115 --> 04:22.275
to do in my poetry is, is, is is find a kind of language

04:22.275 --> 04:26.275
that that is neither specifically personal or political.

04:26.365 --> 04:27.675
Those are useful distinctions,

04:27.675 --> 04:30.515
but I'm interested in sort of under that, the, the,

04:30.655 --> 04:34.635
you know, perhaps coming a bit closer to, to how it feels

04:34.635 --> 04:35.675
to me to be alive.

04:36.055 --> 04:38.515
So, so I would say that I would not say

04:38.515 --> 04:40.995
that this collection is more or less personal

04:41.095 --> 04:44.075
or if you like, political than the, previous one.

04:44.615 --> 04:48.475
I'm, I was, you know, I turned 21 in 1994,

04:48.645 --> 04:49.675
which was the year

04:49.675 --> 04:52.195
of South Africa's first democratic election.

04:52.935 --> 04:57.475
So my adult life has been defined by, living

04:57.655 --> 05:02.555
and working in, in a, what in some ways is a, is a, is a,

05:02.555 --> 05:04.275
perhaps even a miraculous democracy,

05:04.615 --> 05:07.155
but in other ways is, is arguably the most

05:07.635 --> 05:08.835
unequal country in the world.

05:09.495 --> 05:11.915
And my own experience of being South African,

05:11.915 --> 05:13.715
there's been a lot of positive experiences,

05:13.815 --> 05:17.995
but also that, that there's often has been a, a denial

05:18.015 --> 05:19.675
of the reality of South Africa.

05:19.935 --> 05:22.075
And, and a lot of that has been about language

05:22.295 --> 05:24.595
and how it's used in South Africa, so that,

05:24.625 --> 05:26.515
that interest has, has run

05:26.515 --> 05:28.235
through both collections, I think.

05:28.415 --> 05:32.715
Um, and at its best, you know, I hope to,

05:32.735 --> 05:36.235
to find a language that kind of brings it to the personal

05:36.255 --> 05:38.675
and the political, because in, in my daily life,

05:38.735 --> 05:41.635
and probably yours as well, these things are interwoven.

05:41.775 --> 05:42.795
You know, I, you know,

05:42.795 --> 05:45.595
so the one moment I'm thinking a little bit along political

05:45.595 --> 05:47.035
lines, then I'm in my own life.

05:47.695 --> 05:50.635
So those neat distinctions, I wouldn't say,

05:51.635 --> 05:53.875
structured this, this collection.

05:54.345 --> 05:56.235
What I have found though, perhaps,

05:56.415 --> 06:00.525
in this collection is more of a courage to touch on,

06:01.275 --> 06:04.445
perhaps slightly more intimate personal aspects of things.

06:04.465 --> 06:07.205
So I feel that perhaps with a second collection,

06:07.205 --> 06:09.005
you feel a bit more like you can go for it.

06:09.005 --> 06:11.725
Like you can, you can be a little bit more,

06:11.855 --> 06:13.125
courageous in that sense.

06:13.185 --> 06:15.285
So I think in that sense, there's probably more

06:15.525 --> 06:17.965
of my own personal hopes and fears in it.

06:18.305 --> 06:20.605
The title Pro from the collection, it's called Loving

06:20.625 --> 06:21.625
The Dying.

06:21.985 --> 06:25.445
Um, we tuck them in place,

06:25.645 --> 06:29.165
a dry kiss on a dry brow, rearrange the flowers

06:29.225 --> 06:30.565
And open And close the curtains.

06:31.105 --> 06:33.125
The light is never right for the dying.

06:34.155 --> 06:35.655
At the end of each long shift,

06:35.755 --> 06:38.855
We turn up our collar sling through the white passages

06:38.855 --> 06:41.455
and quickly past reception in the security guard.

06:42.315 --> 06:43.695
But the dying are cunning.

06:44.005 --> 06:46.895
They peer through our windows, leave finger smudges

06:46.895 --> 06:49.735
On the post box, Hung clownish from our rafters.

06:50.325 --> 06:53.695
They si from a room next door. We knew to be unoccupied.

06:54.355 --> 06:56.135
Nobody will hold them in their place

06:57.235 --> 06:58.695
in our back gardens tired.

06:58.835 --> 07:00.335
We ask, are there no other

07:00.335 --> 07:01.655
Jobs for People like us?

07:02.445 --> 07:03.735
Well, we have no other love,

07:03.795 --> 07:07.735
but this begrudging shiftless thing, the dying chuckle at

07:07.735 --> 07:10.935
that cozy for the night in the tree houses we built for

07:10.935 --> 07:13.095
Our children summers ago, There

07:13.095 --> 07:14.655
Are no other jobs, and they know it.

07:14.865 --> 07:16.295
There Are no safe separate,

07:16.645 --> 07:17.645
Separated lives.

07:18.035 --> 07:20.015
Loving the dying is what we have done

07:20.315 --> 07:24.055
and what we will do on our better days, mornings,

07:24.055 --> 07:26.615
almost like the sound of a clarinet evenings,

07:26.615 --> 07:27.935
almost like the sound of

07:27.935 --> 07:28.935
A ship's bell.

07:29.235 --> 07:32.375
We know it too. Franz Kafka said that,

07:33.255 --> 07:36.335
literature must be like an ax that we use to

07:37.245 --> 07:39.775
chop away the ice that builds around the heart.

07:40.725 --> 07:43.225
So I think with poetry, that's a high standard.

07:43.485 --> 07:46.545
But I think with poetry, the aim is, I hope there's a,

07:46.545 --> 07:50.555
that there's a poem or some poems that, that move someone,

07:50.915 --> 07:53.595
I think poetry tries to connect with the heart.

07:53.655 --> 07:57.435
It, it needs to, for me, it has to, there has

07:57.435 --> 07:58.875
to be sophistication to it,

07:58.895 --> 08:02.715
but ultimately the aim is to move the reader, to, to

08:03.485 --> 08:05.215
chop away some of this ice that we build

08:05.215 --> 08:07.495
around our own hearts so that we can feel better

08:07.755 --> 08:10.655
and live better and, live better for others as well.

08:11.155 --> 08:13.135
So in a, in a very big sense, that,

08:13.135 --> 08:14.335
that, that would be the hope.

08:14.445 --> 08:17.175
Yeah, I hope that there are some poems that are read

08:17.175 --> 08:18.815
and that there are some poems that are re-read.

08:18.815 --> 08:21.615
You know, if I think about poetry that I love,

08:21.725 --> 08:22.775
it's, it's like a friend.

08:22.775 --> 08:24.975
It, it walks along with you in your own journey.

00:00 - You begin with a few poems, and, I don't necessarily think probably for most poets, when you start writing a a book of poems, they are initially more individual poems. But I think over time, the, the, you, you start seeing certain themes emerging

00:18 - and you always have sort of the choice. Do you want to push the theme harder? Do you wanna shift it? So for me, I suppose like many people, in a post covid world as well, there's been an interest in, or, or an engagement with the idea of my own mortality. and, so from that, when, when I saw that a lot of the poems seemed to be about dying and the reality of death, I realized this was something that I wanted to explore more.

00:48 - You know, I think in a slightly bigger perspective on my poetry, I'm not always convinced that language, language can reveal the truth of things to us, but we often use it to also hide reality from our, from ourselves. I think language can often be more of a way of putting a kind of filter between us and the way the the world really is. So I became very interested in, in looking at how we think

01:15 - through language about mortality and how, if we acknowledge our own mortality, I think it can help us live better lives. You know, typically we, many people seem to live as though they're never going to die. So for me, it became a, a matter of, of, of working in poetry with, with the idea of, okay, given that we all die, how do we live? How can I explore this in language and, and that I'm not, not implying I had all of

01:44 - that thought out at the beginning, but these were the kind of things that were in my head with as the poems emerged. And, and I mean, the idea of loving the dying, the title, there's a, you know, there's a twofold meaning there. we need to love our own life, including the dying, but we also need to look after each other. the, in the sense of looking after those who may literally be dying, you know, so

02:08 - for me, that, that was, that was, those were the themes that emerged, and that I sort of encouraged, but it was an opportunity. The poem, the, the book of poems, it's a little bit chronological there. Some, some of the early in the collection, some of the poems are, or you might almost call them growing up poems, poems of youth. So it was an, perhaps I'm just at that point in life where you want to have a bit of a sense of,

02:33 - of your own journey and, and what it, what, what it might mean as well with any large project. You know, if you, if you think about it, there's a book of poems. I think that's, that's probably too intimidating or too daunting. for me, as in terms of writing, it's more about the, the practical effort you make every day, day, so to speak.

02:54 - I, you know, I, I try at least every day to, to kind of check in to see if there's anything happening. you know, to sit down. I think it's important to, for me, it's important to keep notebooks because there's nothing, there's nothing more scary than a, than a blank piece of paper. I think for all of us, for, for professional writers, for poets, whatever, the blank piece of paper is a terrible thing.

03:15 - So, you know, you want, when you sit down, you, you kind of want to, to have something that you can get started with. I mean, he Hemingway in, in, in, in his book of movable feast, has a good little tip along those lines that he would always stop his writing on a given day when he knew how to continue, so that the next morning he could pick it up for me. A lot of it, a lot of it is about generating, momentum. So it's on, that's on, that's on the practicals. If you have some sort of a sense of where you want to go

03:44 - and you, you keep notebooks as a writer and you kind of check in every day. a lot of the rest of it sort of takes care of itself if you're lucky. There's a lot of things that I love about poetry, but, one of the things that I, that I love about poetry is that it, it asks us to perhaps question the, the kind of distinctions that, that are sometimes very necessary in, in our social and our cultural life, or our political life as well.

04:14 - So, I would say that certainly what I try to do in my poetry is, is, is is find a kind of language that that is neither specifically personal or political. Those are useful distinctions, but I'm interested in sort of under that, the, the, you know, perhaps coming a bit closer to, to how it feels to me to be alive. So, so I would say that I would not say that this collection is more or less personal or if you like, political than the, previous one.

04:44 - I'm, I was, you know, I turned 21 in 1994, which was the year of South Africa's first democratic election. So my adult life has been defined by, living and working in, in a, what in some ways is a, is a, is a, perhaps even a miraculous democracy, but in other ways is, is arguably the most unequal country in the world. And my own experience of being South African, there's been a lot of positive experiences,

05:13 - but also that, that there's often has been a, a denial of the reality of South Africa. And, and a lot of that has been about language and how it's used in South Africa, so that, that interest has, has run through both collections, I think. and at its best, you know, I hope to, to find a language that kind of brings it to the personal and the political, because in, in my daily life, and probably yours as well, these things are interwoven.

05:41 - You know, I, you know, so the one moment I'm thinking a little bit along political lines, then I'm in my own life. So those neat distinctions, I wouldn't say, structured this, this collection. What I have found though, perhaps, in this collection is more of a courage to touch on, perhaps slightly more intimate personal aspects of things. So I feel that perhaps with a second collection, you feel a bit more like you can go for it.

06:09 - Like you can, you can be a little bit more, courageous in that sense. So I think in that sense, there's probably more of my own personal hopes and fears in it. The title Pro from the collection, it's called Loving The Dying. we tuck them in place, a dry kiss on a dry brow, rearrange the flowers And open And close the curtains. The light is never right for the dying.

06:34 - At the end of each long shift, We turn up our collar sling through the white passages and quickly past reception in the security guard. But the dying are cunning. They peer through our windows, leave finger smudges On the post box, Hung clownish from our rafters. They si from a room next door. We knew to be unoccupied. Nobody will hold them in their place in our back gardens tired. We ask, are there no other

07:00 - Jobs for People like us? Well, we have no other love, but this begrudging shiftless thing, the dying chuckle at that cozy for the night in the tree houses we built for Our children summers ago, There Are no other jobs, and they know it. There Are no safe separate, Separated lives. Loving the dying is what we have done and what we will do on our better days, mornings,

07:24 - almost like the sound of a clarinet evenings, almost like the sound of A ship's bell. We know it too. Franz Kafka said that, literature must be like an ax that we use to chop away the ice that builds around the heart. So I think with poetry, that's a high standard. But I think with poetry, the aim is, I hope there's a, that there's a poem or some poems that, that move someone, I think poetry tries to connect with the heart.

07:53 - It, it needs to, for me, it has to, there has to be sophistication to it, but ultimately the aim is to move the reader, to, to chop away some of this ice that we build around our own hearts so that we can feel better and live better and, live better for others as well. So in a, in a very big sense, that, that, that would be the hope. Yeah, I hope that there are some poems that are read and that there are some poems that are re-read.

08:18 - You know, if I think about poetry that I love, it's, it's like a friend. It, it walks along with you in your own journey.

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